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Thread: Gaudiya's brahmAnanda vs viShishtAdvaita's kaivalya - are they analogous concepts?

  1. #1

    Gaudiya's brahmAnanda vs viShishtAdvaita's kaivalya - are they analogous concepts?

    Namaste,

    I would like to open a discussion on this topic and invite members of both Gaudiya and Sri Vaishnava traditions, as well as anyone who is well-read in their respective literatures, to contribute.

    I was recently re-reading Bhagavad-gita this time with commentary of Sri Ramanuja. There is a concept in his commentary of "kaivalya" which he equates to the less ideal "akShara" worship in chapter 12. As I understand it, he defines kaivalya as attaining knowledge of oneself, meaning that one understands that he is the jIvAtma and stops falsely identifying himself with the body. Since the jIvAtmas are the body of paramAtma, Sri Ramanuja is of the opinion that these great souls will go on to get moksha and attain paramam padam. Yet, he considers this kaivalya/self-realization stage as a kind of penultimate stage.

    Now, from what I understand of the Chaitanya school, they believe that there is an entity known as "Brahman" which is distinct from Bhagavaan and refers to the effulgence or light emanating from His body. They also have a concept of "merging in impersonal Brahman" which they take to mean a sort of incomplete liberation, not yet reaching Vaikuntha but still getting free from the bodily conception of life. There are shlokas in the Bhaagavata Puraana speaking of the inferiority of "brahmAnanda" to Krishna-bhakti which seem to support this point of view.

    Now first, my question is, is the "merging in brahmajyoti" thing seen as a literal merger and loss of identity according to the Gaudiya school, or does it merely refer to self-realization (understanding that one is not the body)? If it is merely the latter, then would it be fair to say that this is the same or similar concept as Ramanuja's kaivalya? Also, in Ramanuja's system, what is the fate of one who dies having attained kaivalya only, but not yet having gotten sharanaagati? Does he get elevated to some sort of "in-between" liberation as the Gaudiyas claim, or is it just rebirth in deva-lokas?

    Comments and clarifications are most welcome.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  2. #2

    Re: Gaudiya's brahmAnanda vs viShishtAdvaita's kaivalya - are they analogous concepts

    Hello,
    For one thing to be explained there can be many concepts.

    Salokya moksha is through uttering of Lord's name.By doing good karma and chanting and bhakti, one can achieve moksha from earth but not of other world's. They go to swarga or other celestial lokas and return

    A person who is freed from all sins, who is established in Satva attains Swarupa moksha and a brahmana with all these meditates on Lord continuosly attains Samipya moksha. Bhakti is essential

    And one who renunciates completely and with all above qualities meditates on Reality attains Sayujya moksha. Absorption in to Lord i.e kaivalya. He attains Satchitananda.

    And all are interdependent....

  3. #3

    Re: Gaudiya's brahmAnanda vs viShishtAdvaita's kaivalya - are they analogous concepts

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post
    Hello,
    For one thing to be explained there can be many concepts.

    Salokya moksha is through uttering of Lord's name.By doing good karma and chanting and bhakti, one can achieve moksha from earth but not of other world's. They go to swarga or other celestial lokas and return

    A person who is freed from all sins, who is established in Satva attains Swarupa moksha and a brahmana with all these meditates on Lord continuosly attains Samipya moksha. Bhakti is essential

    And one who renunciates completely and with all above qualities meditates on Reality attains Sayujya moksha. Absorption in to Lord i.e kaivalya. He attains Satchitananda.

    And all are interdependent....
    Actually, Jimmy, "kaivalya" is defined by Sri Vaishnavas as "self-realization," or in other words, the attainment of the direct vision of the self /realization that one is the soul and not the body. Kaivalya is the goal of karma-yoga and jnaana-yoga, but from kaivalya one has to go on to attain brahman and attain His supreme devotion.

    Also, Sri Vaishnavas do not claim that one gets moksha by doing "good karma." One gets moksha by getting the grace of the Lord. He showers that grace on those who do prapatti or bhakti-yoga. These in turn require that one engage himself in nitya- and naimittika-karmas, but such karmas are to be performed for the Lord's pleasure and not for their otherwise inconsequential fruits - these are there to induce those who do not have the correct vision of things as they are. "Good karma" is still binding in this world, and does not cease to bind the soul until the it gets the Lord's grace and attains moksha.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  4. #4

    Re: Gaudiya's brahmAnanda vs viShishtAdvaita's kaivalya - are they analogous concepts

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    but from kaivalya one has to go on to attain brahman and attain His supreme devotion.
    when one attains Brahman, when one is One with Brahman, that itself is Kaivalya....and devotion is the base....it doesnt comes later on...it is the primary thing
    without devotion and faith....one will not even start the journey

  5. #5

    Re: Gaudiya's brahmAnanda vs viShishtAdvaita's kaivalya - are they analogous concepts

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post
    when one attains Brahman, when one is One with Brahman, that itself is Kaivalya....
    Pranams,

    As I had indicated, that is not the viShishtAdvaita/Sri Vaishnava concept of kaivalya. Please note the title of this thread.

    regards,
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  6. #6
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    Re: Gaudiya's brahmAnanda vs viShishtAdvaita's kaivalya - are they analogous concepts

    Namaste
    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    Now first, my question is, is the "merging in brahmajyoti" thing seen as a literal merger and loss of identity according to the Gaudiya school, or does it merely refer to self-realization (understanding that one is not the body)? If it is merely the latter, then would it be fair to say that this is the same or similar concept as Ramanuja's kaivalya?
    Gaudiya vaishnava view would be this:
    Impersonal realization of the Supreme is possible according to Bhāgavatam 10.14.6 (http://vedabase.net/sb/10/14/6/en) :

    "Nondevotees, however, cannot realize You in Your full personal feature. Nevertheless, it may be possible for them to realize Your expansion as the impersonal Supreme by cultivating direct perception of the Self within the heart. But they can do this only by purifying their mind and senses of all conceptions of material distinctions and all attachment to material sense objects. Only in this way will Your impersonal feature manifest itself to them."

    Yogis who come to the level of impersonal realization of the Supreme can achieve impersonal liberation (mukti) of merging into brahmajyoti, but they can achieve this merging only by bhakti towards the Lord who is the Supreme Person!
    Without bhakti towards the Lord it is not possible to achieve any kind of liberation!
    Merging in brahmajyoti is literal merging into the effulgence or light emanating from Lord's body. On merging, identity or individuality of the jiva is not lost or destroyed because the jiva is eternal. It has just being said that impersonal yogis want to lose their individuality by merging into the Supreme or brahmajyoti, however it is only their folly if they think they will lose their individuality because individuality of the jiva is described as eternal in Bhagavad-gītā 15.7 (http://vedabase.net/bg/15/7/en) :

    mamaivāḿśo jīva-loke
    jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ

    "The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal fragmental parts."

    The word sanātanaḥ "eternal" is used to describe the jiva in this verse. So a jiva will continue to exist even after merging into Brahman or brahmajyoti.

    Is this concept similar to Ramanuja's kaivalya?
    It may be so because those who reach the level of impersonal Brahman realization must continue to progress further to be able to reach the Lord, the Supreme Person.

    regards

  7. #7

    Re: Gaudiya's brahmAnanda vs viShishtAdvaita's kaivalya - are they analogous concepts

    Great question, philosoraptor.

    In Gaudiya Vedanta, the realisation of one’s identity as ‘Brahman’ is considered to constitute a penultimate stage of realisation; in other words, just as in the Sri Vaishnava school, the self-realisation referred to here is but a precursor, if you like, to the transcendent experience in Vaikuntha. Merging into Brahman, according to our school, essentially means an experience of deep absorption into Brahman (the indeterminate homogenous manifestation of Bhagavan). Critically however, this absorption is considered neither real nor complete. Given our metaphysical position (acintya-bheda-abheda), the Jiva can never become completely one with Brahman; in other words, even ‘kaivalya’ mukti does not, in the ultimate sense, entail with a loss of complete individuality. However, the immersion of the Jiva into the bliss of Brahman is so deep that it becomes, in effect, unaware of its identity. Of course, just as a clarification, it ought to be pointed out that our school also draws a distinction between Brahman-sayujya (which is what is being referred to here) and Isvaya-sayuja (which refers to absorption in Isvara).

    The Gaudiya school, again like the Sri Vaishnava school, appears to have two different views as to whether a Jiva can progress beyond the state of kaivalya to achieve bhagavat-anubhava. Some Gaudiyas argue, like the Tenkalai sect, that those who attain kaivalya are subsequently denied the opportunity to participate in nitya-kainkarya. Others, however, agree with the Vadakalai sect that such jivas will be provided with the opportunity to engage in Brahmopasana and thereby achieve, eventually, bhagavat-saksatkara and nitya-kainkarya.

    Anuj

  8. #8

    Re: Gaudiya's brahmAnanda vs viShishtAdvaita's kaivalya - are they analogous concepts

    Part of the problem, of course, is that many of our purva-acharayas have not addressed these issues in a systematic and philosophical fashion. Instead, their views on these areas tend to be theological, and primarily reflective of their own experiential predilections. Apart from Sri Jiva Goswami whose contribution to Vedanta comes in the form of his Sat Sandarbhas (and subsequent commentary on said text- Sarva Samvadini), our other chief theologians have largely eschewed strict Vedantic engagement.

  9. #9

    Re: Gaudiya's brahmAnanda vs viShishtAdvaita's kaivalya - are they analogous concepts

    Pranams. Jai Sri Krishna!

    The gauDIya point of view regarding "impersonal brahman realization" seems to correlate with the idea of "self-realization," or in other words, realizing one's identity as the jIvAtmA distinct from matter. The idea of "merging into impersonal brahman" appears to be the destination of those who have attained this self-realization but have not gone on further to attain bhagavAn-prema, as per gauDIya viewpoint. Hence, it looked to me as something quite analogous to the Sri Vaishnava concept of kaivalya, except that Sri Vaishnavas do not believe in any concept of being absorbed in impersonal brahman effulgence. Interestingly, even the verses upon which these two concepts are based appear to be the same, such as gItA 14.27. Here, rAmAnuja takes the brahman of which Sri Krishna is the pratiShTha as being the jIva, explaining that the jIva is called brahman in this context because of its greatness (or so I recall, corrections welcome). Here, it is self-realization aka kaivalya that is being alluded to, and one attains to that state of kaivalya (self-realization), one at least understands that even the jIva is ensouled by paramAtmA, and has to go on with doing worship of paramAtmA. However, some remain absorbed in the bliss of meditating on the glories of the self, hence this is a penultimate stage of realization in Sri Vaishnavism also.

    Interestingly, an ISKCON friend of mine tells me that baladeva vidyAbhUShaNa takes the same position as rAmAnuja in gItA 14.27. I looked it up in my own copy of gItA-bhUShaNa and sure enough, there is no mention of impersonal brahman in baladeva's commentary.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  10. #10

    Re: Gaudiya's brahmAnanda vs viShishtAdvaita's kaivalya - are they analogous concepts

    praNAm

    "Absorbed in Brahman effulgence" OR "merged into impersonal Brahman" verily means a self-realized jiva NOT AT BHAGVAN's LOTUS FEET
    hence, with no spiritual body in relationship with Bhagvan;
    hence with no sense of identity - lost material identity but not in a relationship w/ the Lord, so engrossed in their own Atma-sukh, bramhAnanda
    which in turn means "lost in BhagvAn's effulgence"

    a state not possible without bhakti without Bhagvan's mercy Lotus Feet, - unanimous Bhagvat and Vaishnav opinion.

    Now this "impersonal Brahman effulgence" has no boundaries or walls , no here or there, no this or that no Me or you, .... but never to be confused with a physical effulgence

    Which is Ramanujachaya's defn of kaivalya = mukti without acknowledgement or recognition of BhagvAn.


    unaware of...
    ishvarah paramah KRshNa
    sacchidananda vigraha
    anAdirAdir Govindam
    sarva kAraNa kAraNam

    kamadhenu kalpavRksha chintamaNi ....
    shriyah kAntAh kAntah ....
    katha gANam nAtyam gamanam apivaMshi priya-sakhi
    bhaje shvetadveepam golokam itiyam...



    Govindam Adi Purusham Tam aham bhajAmi
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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