States of existence

[kallol]

Taking a cue out of the "Thoughtful Article" thread, I was having extrapolated thoughts running through my mind. I have put the same in that thread also but again the visibility might have been lost, so started a new thread.

Let me share.

1. Matter is acted upon by energies (mechanical, electrical, electromagnetics, chemical, nuclear, etc) which might be manifested in different forms. So energy is the driver of the matter.

Energy is subtler than matter. This becomes the base of my thoughts

2. Now Energy becomes matter through, as we know, big bang. So energy must have been acted upon. We know it is out of God's mind, which again is the culmination of all minds. Can I assume that mind is driver of the energy ?

So should I assume that mind is subtler than energy ?

3. Again the driver of the mind is consciousness. Does it mean that consciousness is subtler than mind ?

So the flow is matter - energy - minds - consciousness in opposite i.e.

consciousness to mind to energy to matter.

4. Again energy only converts to matter so does it mean consciousnes converts to mind, mind to energy and then energy to matter ? though all should be partial conversions only.

5. Now this, if true, triggers further thoughts. Matters unmanifests unto energy, energy to minds, minds to consciousness. Every stage the attributes are lost unto the higher level where the essence and abstracts are retained. However the individual layers remain in the higher layer in potential state.

6. Now this should mean that the individual minds (and thereby God's mind) get unmanifested unto consciousness. So the next creation (of miinds, energy and matter) will be out of that essence.

7. Though consciousness does not have direct link with matter but then the whole of the chain is out of conciousness. That also brings the notion that everything is nothing but consciousness.

8. Are these the 4 states or the 4th state is beyond this i.e. beyond consciousness. If so how it is defined ? Does it mean that consciousness is out of something ? If yes what is that ?

[devotee]

Namaste Kallol,

A good analysis ! However, the process of conversion needn't be linear i.e. from Consciousness to Mind, Mind to Energy and from Energy to Matter, though it appears to be a logical route. Moreover, there are not only the above four states ... there are others too.

In Varanasi, I know one God-realised Vaishnava saint (Sri Sikar Baba). One of our friends had organised 4-day Ramcharitmanas PATh and Pravachan & Baba was one of the main invitees there. In fact, the whole thing was done under his blessings. Whenever I meet him, I discuss something on AadhyAtma. This time, he touched upon this issue. According to him, Chit or Consciousness is the last thing ... there is nothing beyond Pure Consciousness to be known which is all bliss and peace.

However, Turiya as talked about in the Upanishads is beyond Consciousness but it cannot be "known", as the 'knowledge' at that state is self-immolating.

OM

[kallol]

Thanks Devoteeji. I am sure you are right. It may not be not linear or sequential conversion in many cases.

However if this is true and as per the scriptures, then I need to revisit all of my knowledge to revalidate them.

Thanks for triggering in earlier thread, that all is conciousness.

Hope it will keep me busy for sometime.

[sm78]

Originally Posted by kallol

1. Matter is acted upon by energies (mechanical, electrical, electromagnetics, chemical, nuclear, etc) which might be manifested in different forms. So energy is the driver of the matter.

Energy is subtler than matter. This becomes the base of my thoughts.

2. Now Energy becomes matter through, as we know, big bang. So energy must have been acted upon. We know it is out of God's mind, which again is the culmination of all minds. Can I assume that mind is driver of the energy ?

So should I assume that mind is subtler than energy ?

3. Again the driver of the mind is consciousness. Does it mean that consciousness is subtler than mind ?

So the flow is matter - energy - minds - consciousness in opposite i.e.

consciousness to mind to energy to matter.

4. Again energy only converts to matter so does it mean consciousnes converts to mind, mind to energy and then energy to matter ? though all should be partial conversions only.

5. Now this, if true, triggers further thoughts. Matters unmanifests unto energy, energy to minds, minds to consciousness. Every stage the attributes are lost unto the higher level where the essence and abstracts are retained. However the individual layers remain in the higher layer in potential state.

6. Now this should mean that the individual minds (and thereby God's mind) get unmanifested unto consciousness. So the next creation (of miinds, energy and matter) will be out of that essence.

7. Though consciousness does not have direct link with matter but then the whole of the chain is out of conciousness. That also brings the notion that everything is nothing but consciousness.

8. Are these the 4 states or the 4th state is beyond this i.e. beyond consciousness. If so how it is defined ? Does it mean that consciousness is out of something ? If yes what is that ?

In Indian monistic philosophies consciousness is everything and energy or prana is its activity in manifested universe. Prana flows through the universe from its highest to lowest levels. The manifested universe is a graded existence which consists of mind, matter etc - but in essence, consciousness only.

The energy you are talking about is another form of mater, its grossness or sublimity w.r.t to matter is best left to physicists, as also speculations on big bang. You will be hard pressed to prove energy comes from mind and I have never heard any mystic experience which says so. On top of that you confuse energy with material energy or energy in matter. All this becomes a hoch-potch of thoughts. Prana I believe is fundamental and awareness itself flows through matter, mind and beyond based on prana. And awareness is Cit.

[kallol]

Originally Posted by sm78

In Indian monistic philosophies consciousness is everything and energy or prana is its activity in manifested universe. Prana flows through the universe from its highest to lowest levels. The manifested universe is a graded existence which consists of mind, matter etc - but in essence, consciousness only.

The energy you are talking about is another form of mater, its grossness or sublimity w.r.t to matter is best left to physicists, as also speculations on big bang. You will be hard pressed to prove energy comes from mind and I have never heard any mystic experience which says so. On top of that you confuse energy with material energy or energy in matter. All this becomes a hoch-potch of thoughts. Prana I believe is fundamental and awareness itself flows through matter, mind and beyond based on prana. And awareness is Cit.

Dear SMji,

You are lucky to be already there either through belief or through analysis. I am trying to get there.

Quality I lack is just believing. My mind always tries to analyse and get to the bottom of the theory.

I accept that there will be many mistakes and misconceptions - which I take as the learning process.

The end is known, I am trying to figure out the path. Once done, I can live that theory and not believe only.

Thanks for again reminding me the end - that all are out of prana.

[devotee]

Namaste SM,

The energy you are talking about is another form of mater, its grossness or sublimity w.r.t to matter is best left to physicists, as also speculations on big bang.

Essentially, energy and matter are one and the same thing, as either can be converted into the other. I am unable to understand what you want to say and why there is an objection. Can you specify ?

You will be hard pressed to prove energy comes from mind and I have never heard any mystic experience which says so.

Here, mind should not be confused with brain. Brain is an instrument through which mind operates in living beings. Mind is the Self-turned-outward which projects this world, so says Ramana Maharishi. So, everything perceived in this universe comes from Mind alone.

On top of that you confuse energy with material energy or energy in matter.

What do you mean by material energy ? How is one form of energy essentially different from any other type of energy ? Scientifically, all forms of energy are essentially same as any form of energy can be converted into any other form of energy.

All this becomes a hoch-potch of thoughts. Prana I believe is fundamental and awareness itself flows through matter, mind and beyond based on prana. And awareness is Cit.

Is the PrANa in a piece of stone ? Or is it there in a dead body ?

OM

[sm78]

Without going into so many words, I simply mean to say that "energy" who is referred to as shakti in our philosophies is much more fundamental than mind. World is not perceived by the mind, but simply given a shape using the 5 jnanendriyas. In fact in a more technically correct definition, mind just creates a memory out of experience created by the jnanendriyas. But perception or awareness is much more fine and it can exist simply in iteslf without mind or sense as sadashiva. Prana is not a pebble nor the mere physical breath, but shakti in the manifested universe which flows through all its levels.

I believe energy coming out of mind is a misconception which defies experience, common sense and scientific observation, and in the OP energy was only discussed as the one transformed from matter which is not the definition I use. That energy from matter is just a form of matter.

But I now realize to follow vedantic advaita or buddhism one may not have much choice but to believe all experience, matter and energy etc are all created from mind. So be it.

[devotee]

Namaste SM,

Originally Posted by sm78

Without going into so many words, I simply mean to say that "energy" who is referred to as shakti in our philosophies is much more fundamental than mind.

I don't think till now we have mentioned "Shakti" anywhere in this thread until you posted above. So, how you assert that "Energy" meant "shakti" in this discussion. Again, how do you say that Shakti and energy are completely different, is not clear.

World is not perceived by the mind, but simply given a shape using the 5 jnanendriyas. In fact in a more technically correct definition, mind just creates a memory out of experience created by the jnanendriyas.

If world is not perceived by mind, then who/what perceives the world ? Can the Jnanedriyas work in absence of mind ? What are Jnanedriyas in absence of mind ? Why do you not hear a sound even when there is noise when you are sleeping ? How do you perceive things in a dream when your Jnanedriyas are inactive ?

But perception or awareness is much more fine and it can exist simply in iteslf without mind or sense as sadashiva.

If you define perception as awareness, yes, Awareness or Consciousness can just exist by itself.

Prana is not a pebble nor the mere physical breath, but shakti in the manifested universe which flows through all its levels.

PraNa has been described in scriptures as Vital Force ( & also physical breath). However, your use of PrANa is in a wider sense and imho, use of Consciousness might be a better option.

I believe energy coming out of mind is a misconception which defies experience, common sense and scientific observation, and in the OP energy was only discussed as the one transformed from matter which is not the definition I use. That energy from matter is just a form of matter.

What is mind ? Is it not Consciousness looking outwards ? Don't the scriptures tell us that the whole creation is just the vibration of the Consciousness ?

Have you seen some accomplished yogi creating something out of thin air by using his yogic powers ? I have seen it and I can assert that it was not a stage-managed magic or trick. You may like to believe or not, it is upto you. Your thoughts can create anything whatever you like, if you acquire sufficient yogic powers. But anyway, I can't and won't force you to accept it as I cannot show it to you. I don't have such powers.

But I now realize to follow vedantic advaita or buddhism one may not have much choice but to believe all experience, matter and energy etc are all created from mind. So be it.

My dear friend, you must accept only what you experience that is what Buddhism and Advaita Vedanta says. All scriptures and sayings of the teachers are only the fingers pointing to the moon (in words of Wei-wu-Wei) and not the moon itself. This is the only path which puts a lot of stress on experiencing the Truth by the seeker Himself. Everything else is secondary ... your journey is not successful until you experience it yourself.

I will tell you a story on this :

Swami Vivekananda was highly skeptical of Advaita even after he became a disciple of Ramkrishna. So, one day he was joking with his friends, "I don't know how to believe this ? How can we believe that this chair, this tea-cup and this tea-plate etc. are all Brahman ? It is rubbish !". Incidently, Ramkrishna was passing through by the side of that room where they were all making fun of Advaita. At some other time he mentioned this and said, "He will believe this when he himself experiences it all one day". ... and the day came when Swami Vivekananda experienced all this.

So, there is nothing like, "No Option but" in Advaita SAdhanA ... experience is the most important thing here. Have you heard this statement in Buddhism, "If you see Buddha, Kill Buddha" ? This statement simply underscores the importance of individual experience over everything that scriptures say or even whatever the teachers say. The Truth reveals itself to the seeker in the manner that there is no trace of doubts left.

OM

[NayaSurya]

There are only small things i can contribute here.

But, i have seen this world not with these eyes. i can do this when deeply meditating. The first time it happened i thought my eyes had popped open. So the next few times i put mask on...and could still see the whole room.

Secondly, my own mother come, after losing her body and show me visions of her home and the things being done, all correct. We can perceive this realm without flesh and blood eyes.

Thirdly, when sleeping...i hear everything. It's unfortunate but very true. If you play a movie beside me, i will watch this movie in my sleep. One time, a very dear doctor would come with the nurse into ICU. He was a tremendous talent, a Laotian surgeon. When I would be asleep he would come quietly in the darkness into my clients room. I would be up and answering his questions without being fully awake, even helping them with certain procedures. He took me aside and say..."in all my life i never meet one as you who can speak to me so clearly, yet be so clearly not awake. The nurse agreed. (Wanted to add, the private nurses were ordered to sleep when their father slept so that we did not become tired by 12 hours shifts in the wee hours of night. Didn't want folks to think i was slacking:P)

I am not sure if because i can do this, i was good candidate for watching over the dying. Or if by necessity, i came to be this way.

But, as a child, i never used an alarm clock. I would simply repeat the time i need to be awake in my head a few times and it worked every time. What portion of me was keeping time? It's the aware part i think.

I believe a highly functioning Portion here, very nearly not here...could manifest things.

Do not we do this upon a smaller scale all the time? We think something...think it very much. Suddenly, this thing fall into our lap?

Yes, we did not create the item, because we are not as highly functioning using the tool/body to the utmost degree. But, we did manifest the circumstance. And that is pretty darn good for just normal folks i think!

With all of this being said, from the fool girl and her experience, i know it is never enough to make others believe, unless they experience and this is fine. I am not swami, just mother...and so not here to help others achieve such states. My goal is to help with mundane aspects.

I believe that, from my experience this realm seems to be manifested energy, upon its own field. It's as real as you or I. Solid to touch. When we leave here...we no longer are solid in this way. I have put my hand through a beautiful orbish being which came wandering into my room. It reacted to me, (It immediately flew up and disappeared) but my hand went right through it.


The mind is just some empty computer, we fill it with our whole world.
It does not create the apple...it observe, record and log the apple. The body is a tool to help us observe, record and log this journey we are taking. The Being inside, is witness...and participant with the help of this body tool.

As an astronaut on the moon would use a suit to interact with the surface. So too our bodies do the same. The moon is still real...despite our need for a suit to be upon it.

[Maya3]

1. Matter is acted upon by energies (mechanical, electrical, electromagnetics, chemical, nuclear, etc) which might be manifested in different forms. So energy is the driver of the matter.

Energy is subtler than matter. This becomes the base of my thoughts

If I understand you right, I think so. You are not really your mind, your mind is what the real you is using to live in this body.

2. Now Energy becomes matter through, as we know, big bang. So energy must have been acted upon. We know it is out of God's mind, which again is the culmination of all minds. Can I assume that mind is driver of the energy ?

This is THE big question, God's mind would be the driver. But God's mind... isn't God beyond the mind? Using just pure consciousness.
Maybe the consciousness of this mind came into being during the big bang? Maybe "IT" lay dormant as pure energy before it separated and spread out?
Or maybe it was aware? I wish I knew for sure.

So should I assume that mind is subtler than energy ?

Don't we use the energy to fuel the mind? Without it the brain could not create a mind. When we are in deep meditation, it is not really the mind that is active (at least we try to make it less active)

3. Again the driver of the mind is consciousness. Does it mean that consciousness is subtler than mind ?

I think so.

So the flow is matter - energy - minds - consciousness in opposite i.e.

consciousness to mind to energy to matter.

If I'm right that before the big bang there was dense contained awareness, then that was dense contained Matter, then the energy spread out and whatever was manifested became aware of itself (or aware of the matter, bodies etc. (not aware of itself as in Self Realization)...
I get a little confused here? I'm not sure if I can put it into words.

4. Again energy only converts to matter so does it mean consciousnes converts to mind, mind to energy and then energy to matter ? though all should be partial conversions only.

I think so. This is chewy, I love that you are posting these questions, but I'm probably not the right person to answer them.

5. Now this, if true, triggers further thoughts. Matters unmanifests unto energy, energy to minds, minds to consciousness. Every stage the attributes are lost unto the higher level where the essence and abstracts are retained. However the individual layers remain in the higher layer in potential state.

I think so.

6. Now this should mean that the individual minds (and thereby God's mind) get unmanifested unto consciousness. So the next creation (of miinds, energy and matter) will be out of that essence.

Yes, but we forget this. We get caught up in our stuff, and don't see our true Selves.

7. Though consciousness does not have direct link with matter but then the whole of the chain is out of conciousness. That also brings the notion that everything is nothing but consciousness.

It is. I always think of it as in the Matrix movie when Keenu Reeves suddenly sees that everything is just zeros.

8. Are these the 4 states or the 4th state is beyond this i.e. beyond consciousness. If so how it is defined ? Does it mean that consciousness is out of something ? If yes what is that ?[/font][/color]

I don't know. I wish I could answer it. All I can say without being too technical is Tat Tvam Asi (I am That)

Maya