The HINDU DHARMA FORUMS for discussion of Sanatana Dharma, Hindu Religion and Indian Culture. [link to HDF home]  

Go Back   Hindu Dharma Forums > General Discussion > Science and Religion
Join Us! Rules/FAQ Library Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Science and Religion Can Science alone answer all questions? Or can only Religion provide the ultimate truth?

"Primitive" archaeological findings

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 16 April 2011, 05:13 AM
Pietro Impagliazzo's Avatar
Pietro Impagliazzo Pietro Impagliazzo is offline
Satyameva Jayate Nanrtam
 
Join Date: September 2010
Location: Rio de Janeiro
Age: 25
Posts: 1,063
Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !
Reputation: 47027
"Primitive" archaeological findings

Hello people, I must say I'm a bit of a nastika regarding the dating science arbitrarily sets for the universe and for evolution on Earth. I remember reading an article 3 to 4 years ago that scientists found plant traces that dated back billion of years ago. That alone would push back the dates by a lot if I'm not mistaken. However, science needs statistical evidences to accept something, as if statistics could reveal the true nature of things, bollocks!

Carl Gustav Jung uses a very astute example of the statistical weight of pebbles on a river. If we weight each one of them and come out with 145g, that would be scientifically accepted as the weight of those stones. However, if someone dove into that river trying to find one single stone weighting 145g he would come out empty handed, statistic tells very little about the peculiarities of each case.

Some time ago I was researching about dinosaurs and the vedas, I found this message:

Quote:
Vedas were not focusing on describing animals living in different yugas. some huge sea animals (timingila) are mentioned more as curiosity surviving at the time the Vedas were recorded. civilized human fossils from previous yugas are rare or non-existent because these folks cremated their dead and rarely lived in areas where bone fossilization is possible (swamps or deserts). also, the ruins of their buildings were mostly used up as building material source for subsequent people so not much is left of such ancient structures today.

Source: http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/s...tml#post263217
It sounds right to me, if we cross this information with the information that civilizations before Christian imposed scientific darkness were highly advanced, like those in the Indus valley, we push back even more the age intellectual ignorance.

I'm curious of how ancient world was organized regarding advanced civilizations and tribals. The only thing that the ancient advanced civilizations didn't have (it seems) is instant communication as we do now. The limits of the physical world perhaps were of little meaning to a civilization that understood the limitless mind and spirit. So while there were these comparably (to what science tries to shout every time: "Our ancestors were dumb!") advanced civilizations there were still vastness for tribal and primitive clans to live their lives.

Seems like we're living some sort of homogenization, the static characteristic of a primitive mind with the wonders of the advanced civilization.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolmen

I look at this and see a simple construction, perhaps made by a renunciate, a yogi, to calmly meditate while using little resources and with integration to the environment.

But the science consensus is: "They were very stupid and couldn't build houses!"

What made us so great? The church? The crusades? Our destructive instance towards mother Earth? Tell me about complex of superiority!

Om Tat Sat
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 16 April 2011, 05:38 AM
Pietro Impagliazzo's Avatar
Pietro Impagliazzo Pietro Impagliazzo is offline
Satyameva Jayate Nanrtam
 
Join Date: September 2010
Location: Rio de Janeiro
Age: 25
Posts: 1,063
Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !
Reputation: 47027
Re: "Primitive" archaeological findings

Quote:
...All along the course of river Ganga, today 27 major towns dump over 900 million litres of sewage/industrial waste into it every day! This nonsense should be stopped at any cost. Humans have no rights to pollute the natural resources of this planet. If we cant handle our waste, we shouldn’t be producing it in the first place. Rather than being an individual’s symbolic effort to fight pollution, it should be an enlightened mass movement of entire humanity to create nonpolluting technology out of the science we know. The very fact that almost all the technology that we possess today in the name of development and modernization is polluting, proves that the technology we have created using modern science is still primitive. It has more to do with our greed, than with science.

Source: http://www.hitxp.com/zone/books/scie...rets-of-ganga/
What's the use of this "progress"?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 16 April 2011, 12:26 PM
sanjaya sanjaya is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: November 2009
Age: 30
Posts: 839
sanjaya is surely an avatara !sanjaya is surely an avatara !sanjaya is surely an avatara !sanjaya is surely an avatara !sanjaya is surely an avatara !sanjaya is surely an avatara !sanjaya is surely an avatara !sanjaya is surely an avatara !sanjaya is surely an avatara !sanjaya is surely an avatara !sanjaya is surely an avatara !
Reputation: 49161
Re: "Primitive" archaeological findings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pietro Impagliazzo View Post
Hello people, I must say I'm a bit of a nastika regarding the dating science arbitrarily sets for the universe and for evolution on Earth. I remember reading an article 3 to 4 years ago that scientists found plant traces that dated back billion of years ago. That alone would push back the dates by a lot if I'm not mistaken. However, science needs statistical evidences to accept something, as if statistics could reveal the true nature of things, bollocks!
Actually, the way in which the age of the universe is determined is pretty straightforward. It can be deduced from redshift measurements of objects at cosmological distances. As for plants on earth, I imagine these are dated using a radioisotope with a known decay rate. Is there any reason you find these conclusions to be suspect?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 16 April 2011, 01:01 PM
Water Water is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: April 2011
Posts: 145
Water is advanced in sanatana dharmaWater is advanced in sanatana dharmaWater is advanced in sanatana dharmaWater is advanced in sanatana dharmaWater is advanced in sanatana dharmaWater is advanced in sanatana dharmaWater is advanced in sanatana dharmaWater is advanced in sanatana dharmaWater is advanced in sanatana dharmaWater is advanced in sanatana dharmaWater is advanced in sanatana dharma
Reputation: 3534
Re: "Primitive" archaeological findings

When I first saw the title of this post, I thought it was going to be about Drutakarma Das.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 16 April 2011, 01:39 PM
Pietro Impagliazzo's Avatar
Pietro Impagliazzo Pietro Impagliazzo is offline
Satyameva Jayate Nanrtam
 
Join Date: September 2010
Location: Rio de Janeiro
Age: 25
Posts: 1,063
Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !
Reputation: 47027
Re: "Primitive" archaeological findings

Guys, I'm not a scientist, you're completely free (and encouraged) to disagree with me and call me names.

I think my post has more emotional content than rational. Thank god I'm not a scientist.

I also don't buy how vedic seers somehow missed on properly dating yugas and itihasas but at the same time mastered jyotish, makes no rational sense.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 18 April 2011, 10:15 AM
sanjaya sanjaya is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: November 2009
Age: 30
Posts: 839
sanjaya is surely an avatara !sanjaya is surely an avatara !sanjaya is surely an avatara !sanjaya is surely an avatara !sanjaya is surely an avatara !sanjaya is surely an avatara !sanjaya is surely an avatara !sanjaya is surely an avatara !sanjaya is surely an avatara !sanjaya is surely an avatara !sanjaya is surely an avatara !
Reputation: 49161
Re: "Primitive" archaeological findings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pietro Impagliazzo View Post
Guys, I'm not a scientist, you're completely free (and encouraged) to disagree with me and call me names.

I think my post has more emotional content than rational. Thank god I'm not a scientist.

I also don't buy how vedic seers somehow missed on properly dating yugas and itihasas but at the same time mastered jyotish, makes no rational sense.
No, it's OK. I've got my own issues. I get beat up every time I say this, but I'm not sure I believe in jyotish. I want to, especially since we've got a Vedic astrologer in the family who makes remarkably accurate predictions (or so I'm told). But it's difficult to be a real astronomer and believe in astrology, especially when the astrologers give such grossly inaccurate scientific explanations of their art.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 18 April 2011, 11:55 AM
yajvan's Avatar
yajvan yajvan is offline
etad vai tat
 
Join Date: September 2006
Age: 62
Posts: 7,049
yajvan has disabled reputation
Reputation: 2965
Re: "Primitive" archaeological findings

hari o
~~~~~~

namasté sanjaya
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanjaya View Post
No, it's OK. I've got my own issues. I get beat up every time I say this, but I'm not sure I believe in jyotish. I want to, especially since we've got a Vedic astrologer in the family who makes remarkably accurate predictions (or so I'm told). But it's difficult to be a real astronomer and believe in astrology, especially when the astrologers give such grossly inaccurate scientific explanations of their art.
I can see why you say this. You see, many try and explain jyotish by ~questionable~ means - trying to add gravity into the equation, push-pull, all this. Yet at the end of the day it is about cycles + the tattva's ( elements or that-ness we find in this universe) and that the planets are representatives of these forces and influences over time.

The great jyotisa-s found in our history put this knowledge in a format that is repeatable & systematic, yet also added a personality to it the graha-s or grāhaka - one who seizes or takes captive.

At the end of the day, just like the scientist, it is the one with the greatest knowledge that gives the best results - who knows the subtler levels of this jyotish. Yet unlike the scientist the great jyotisa's ( and there are a rare few on this planet as of today) have integrated intuition into the equation.


Yet after some 35 years of study I am still surprised by new techniques, a new law or rule that explains why a certain combination works ( a yoga as it is called). I still consider myself a śiya ( student). I have yielded to the fact that this knowledge is so vast and deep to consider oneself other then a student is just folly and a puffing up of the ego.

When it is all said and done one can take the greatest precautions in calculations, be very knowledgeable and still be wrong . I have seen this. Hence one's estimates and predictions crumble. Yet one needs to be mindful that jyotish is about trends, influences, nudges here and there that occur. Just as a great sailing ship is guided by its rudder, a slight change in the wind direction and a new course is set. This is the influence of the graha's.

praām
__________________

शिवतुल्यो जायते॥
__śivatulyo jāyate
____yajvan___
_oṁ śāntiḥ śāntiḥ śāntiḥ
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 18 April 2011, 11:58 AM
Pietro Impagliazzo's Avatar
Pietro Impagliazzo Pietro Impagliazzo is offline
Satyameva Jayate Nanrtam
 
Join Date: September 2010
Location: Rio de Janeiro
Age: 25
Posts: 1,063
Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !Pietro Impagliazzo is surely an avatara !
Reputation: 47027
Re: "Primitive" archaeological findings

One of the reasons I joined this forum was because of a thread that discussed jyotish and some people were giving very interesting explanations, about how jyotish wasn't about planet rays influencing our lives, but instead about external synchronical events that could be used to predict internal events, how the planets were in fact a representation of the chakras (if I'm not mistaken).

I have personal experience with jyotish and vedic astrologers that I don't need to believe in it, I just know it works.

PS: I was typing my message while Yajvan posted, as always, wise words.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 19 April 2011, 06:23 AM
yajvan's Avatar
yajvan yajvan is offline
etad vai tat
 
Join Date: September 2006
Age: 62
Posts: 7,049
yajvan has disabled reputation
Reputation: 2965
Re: "Primitive" archaeological findings

hariḥ o
~~~~~~

namasté

I wrote the following:

Quote:
The great jyotisa-s found in our history put this knowledge in a format that is repeatable & systematic, yet also added a personality to it the graha-s or grāhaka - one who seizes or takes captive.
My point is the great ṛṣi-s set up a model that would help people understand their surroundings and the effects that it may bring. To this I thought so do modern scientists. They offer us models that with the best of their ability try and reflect reality. The first thing I thought of was the model of the atom.


Does the atom really look like this ? I think not ( from what I am told of the findings of electron-microscopes they have not found little red and green balls ). Yet it is a model , so people can wrap their minds around the concept of an atom and its workings.

It is the same with jyotish. The words, the systems, etc . are working models that when put to practice help us understand and calculate the workings of the influences of the universe on our selves.

Just like in science (or gardeners), there are excellent jyotisa-s and there are meager jyotisha-s. Unlike science , any one reading 1 book on jyotish (or gardening) can declare themselves to be an astrologer. This then pulls down the overall quality of the whole by having the apprentice think he is the master.


praām
__________________

शिवतुल्यो जायते॥
__śivatulyo jāyate
____yajvan___
_oṁ śāntiḥ śāntiḥ śāntiḥ

Last edited by yajvan : 19 April 2011 at 06:45 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:30 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Hindu Dharma Forums