Fact and Truth ...

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



Is fact and truth the same?

How do we know facts and truth? If I were thinking from the nāyaya school (darśana¹) of Indian thought I would take-in or acquire knowledge by perception, inference, comparison and testiomy ( testimony = others telling the truth, or close to it )

So , a naiyāyikin ( one immersed nāyaya school ) would test truth ( or error) corresponding to the nature of an object or its perception thereof.
If someone said, the flower is yellow, the naiyāyikin would view it and if the flower was yellow it was true, of another color, then false.

Now one says 'the sun rotates around the earth'. The naiyāyikin observes the sky and sure enough the sun comes up in the east and
travels across the sky and sets in the west. Vis his perception (pratyakṣa¹) he finds this to be factual. But is it the truth?

It seems that fact could be for the period of observation, yet truth must (IMHO) hold true for all time.

Hence do we as humans hold facts as truth? How can we insure we are viewing truth and not a temporary fact - is this even possible?

Smoke is coming from behind the mountain. I can deduce/infer (anumāna¹) there must be a fire. Yet with a witness (śabda)
my confidence increases.

Think of what you may know... how you gather information by direct experience (pratyakṣa) by being taught (śabda). How do you seperate out facts, truth, falsehood, error?

praṇām

words and references

• pratyakṣa - present before the eyes , visible , perceptible
• anumāna - the act of inferring or drawing a conclusion from given premises
• śabda - verbal communication or testimony
• darśana- seeing, looking, knowledge, traditional doctrine or precept , collection of such doctrines.
• The 6 systems of Indian philosophy - called saḍ darśana or the 6 schools of vision, seeing, sight. We know them as :
  • śāṁkhya
  • yoga
  • vedānta
  • mīmāṃsā
  • nyāya
  • vaiśeṣika

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Yajvan:

Wow, what an amazing can of worms you've just opened! Regarding religious truth and fact, its so very subjective. Even in science its very subjective. Things change, evolve, become richer, get clearer, increase staying power , lose out etc. , over time. Good stuff to ponder.

Does truth actually change or is the only real truth a permanent truth?
Can two people hold opposing or slightly different views, yet each is true to each person?

Personally, I definitely doubt a whole lot about what I hear.

But it does remind me of a family oral storyteller member who always began his whoppers with the same line, "Now this is the absolute truth!"

His wonderful method was to read outdoor adventure stories, and then place himself as the hero of the story.

Aum Namasivaya

[Sahasranama]

It's a good point, yajvan. Sometimes there is a very clear line between facts and truths. When I would say to someone the scriptures say this and that very clearly about the procedure of a certain ritual. Someone might respond, "I don't agree with that, because, no one knows the absolute truth." Then I would say, "we are not talking about the absolute truth here, but about simple facts." I have met a lot of people who have denied simple facts, because some notion of "the truth."

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté Sahasranama,

Originally Posted by Sahasranama

It's a good point, yajvan. Sometimes there is a very clear line between facts and truths. When I would say to someone the scriptures say this and that very clearly about the procedure of a certain ritual. Someone might respond, "I don't agree with that, because, no one knows the absolute truth." Then I would say, "we are not talking about the absolute truth here, but about simple facts." I have met a lot of people who have denied simple facts, because some notion of "the truth."

Very good points indeed. This is especially ~true~ when the ṛṣi's speak of Reality they experience. This truth is there for all time,
it is there for anyone who is one-pointed to 'stay the course' can experience.

So, what do they do in the interim ? how do they talk to us of this Reality? That has always been the wisdom we find in the śāstra's.
Being able to introduce Truth to as in a matter they we do not have a knee-jerk reaction and say 'how can this be, I do not see this, t
his is not part of my experience my perception (pratyakṣa).We rely on their valid testimony śabda.

So , this co-mingling of facts and truth seems to be interesting. Especially in science. Today it is fact, tomorrow we find more information
that usurps that fact.

praṇām

[NayaSurya]

Hello,

One has only to look around our different societies to see that some of us are on a learning curve when it comes to awareness.

For those unaware beings often see things very different due to the fact that their eyes remain closed most of the time.

Facts steadily observed by a group of people create a certain truth for all to benefit. Such as Sanatana Dharma...these facts existed in my heart and the truth of it discovered only later on.

Many mornings, my home has a steam from the heat of the vast forest which creates beautiful clouds of mist that hover in the valleys below...and one could swear that it is on fire. But, those familiar with the facts of this climate are aware that it is an illusion. My own husband believed it a forest fire many times. Such is life...some are not aware and they see things which appear to be a certain way which they make into a "fact" because of this unaware state.

The other day in a game my eldest daughter was approached by a muslim who began to attempt to...more or less indoctrinate her. Unfortunately he picked the wrong child as mine have been well school on the attrocities of these beings. She called for me down below in our third level as I worked and I immediately went up to a computer to log on. The ridiculous lies he said about Hindus were caused from his state of unawareness. It made me angry that these beings are actively seeking young girls to influence, it goes back to my discussion on parenting tough children...ones strong enough to block such beings from their intentions.

I am reminded of the Thirukural which speaks of good company, and I understand the wisdom of avoiding such individuals. (Kural 452 "As water changes according to the soil through which it flows, so a man assimilates the character of his associates.")

This being's "truth" was false, his facts skewed by his blindness.

I know a church near my home which believes that dinosaurs never existed and they use text books to prove this fact. All of the children are home schooled and not allowed to see main stream media so that they are kept completely away from outside influences.

What facts and truth will these beings have when they grow up?

We can speak of facts and truth...but it is all going to be subjective based upon our individual level of awareness. Just as I once believed in the tooth fairy and looked at the quarter under my pillow as an undeniable fact which proved they existed. But now as I place a quarter under my own child's pillow do know the whole truth of it.

Just as mankind once thought the realm was flat.

Some beings have "facts" and "truths" which will not align with those who or more aware or less aware.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté NayaSurya,

Yes you bring some very good points to the conversation. How many years passed that one thought the world was flat. In the West sailing was done at one's own peril - look out! you will sail off the world!

Yet from a jyotish POV this was not the case as the knowledge not only of the earth but of the solar system was understood. Yet that is another story .

praṇām

[Believer]

The other day in a game my eldest daughter was approached by a muslim who began to attempt to...more or less indoctrinate her. Unfortunately he picked the wrong child as mine have been well school on the attrocities of these beings. She called for me down below in our third level as I worked and I immediately went up to a computer to log on. The ridiculous lies he said about Hindus were caused from his state of unawareness.

If your neighbors daughter is abducted and gang-raped, it happens to be a factual event which has nothing to do with ridiculous observation about smoke on the horizon or other intellectual dissociation from the experiential world. And the goondas which committed this heinous act are truly criminal and truly evil and there is no need for anyone to consult a pandit to confirm the obvious reality.

Some are proficient with the shashtras and choose to be totally disassociated with/oblivious to the ways of the world.
Others have to deal with the cold realities of life, as the two posters above.
Will the twain ever meet?
Not until the shashtric knowledge is tampered with a dose of reality and the shashtric 'gurus' come down to our level to get a taste of the 'street life'.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté Believer,

Originally Posted by Believer

Some are proficient with the shashtras and choose to be totally disassociated with/oblivious to the ways of the world.
Others have to deal with the cold realities of life, as the two posters above.
Will the twain ever meet?
Not until the shashtric knowledge is tampered with a dose of reality and the shashtric 'gurus' come down to our level to get a taste of the 'street life'.

Practical points made. Yet what do many do with their children? We talk to them of fairy tales, we protect them from the world, but how long can it be hidden?

The śāstra-s as I see it talk about skill in action, not the avoidance of it. How to act within a world with so many differences, issues, illnesses, pain.
This is the wisdom of the first 6 chapters of the bhāgavad gītā.

That is why the mahābhārata is so great and profound. How many things happen in that epic that would have any common man/woman of this day and age fall to the ground. Yet it teaches much of merging knowledge, perseverance, action and the Supreme together.

For some this mahābhārata goes on in the streets, for others in their own person and mind.


praṇām

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté
I wrote,

So , a naiyāyikin ( one immersed nāyaya school ) would test truth ( or error) corresponding to the nature of an object or its perception thereof.
If someone said, the flower is yellow, the naiyāyikin would view it and if the flower was yellow it was true, of another color, then false

This perception - we use everyday; our eyes are the windows to the world ( not to mention how we may perceive with touch, taste, etc).
This perception is considered ordinary (laukika¹) and can also be extra-ordinary (alaukika).

laukila
With ordinary perception we are accustomed to this idea of sight, hearing, touch, smell, etc. of the world-objects around us.

Yet how many of us have had the experience of alaukika ? What are they?

alaukila

• sāmānyalakṣaṇa - sāmānya = universality , totality , generality + lakṣaṇa = a mark , sign , symbol , token
• jñāna-lakṣaṇa = jñāna = knowledge, but here higher knowledge through cognition + lakṣaṇa = a mark , sign , symbol , token
• yogaja - produced by or arising from yoga or meditation ; intuition

You see, when we talk of truth and fact, we are limited to the perception of laukika ( ordinary); We have not as yet developed alaukika.

This has been the intent of this overall string... to suggest we do not see all we can. As if we are looking at the world in 2D and it is
possible to see it in 3D ( 3 dimensions).


If this is interesting to you we can continue and spend more time on alaukika. When this is developed fully then we are talking of ṛtam.
It is called out in the yogadarśana of patañjali ( the yoga-sūtra-s) .

Chapt 1, 48th sūtra, calls out as ṛtam-bharā prajñā. This means essential cognition i.e. how one perceives the world, is filled with truth.
Lets look a bit deeper:
ṛtam ऋतम् + bharā भर + prajñā प्रज्णा = ṛtam (luminous, insightful unalloyed, pure) + bharā ( bearing, bestowing, carrying) + pra (great) + jñā ( to know).
One perceives only the Truth. Some call this unalloyed, unvarnished great truth and becomes a part of one's daily vision.
This is the practical value of knowledge + experience.

We have available to us a level of awareness that can be cultivated ( over time ) that yields maximum truth , that is unvarnished and without blemish.

praṇām

words

• laukika - worldly , terrestrial , belonging to or occurring in ordinary life , common , usual , customary , temporal , not sacred
• alaukika is a+laukika or not + ordinary.

[kd gupta]

People believe the FACT that one is satisfied when both ends meet . I think this is a immature thought and our hindu shashtras…immerged from vedic say sanatan or eternal dharm prohibit to adopt it as a TRUTH , of course this is the gist we people from age group of sixties know who as well know the idea of age group of forties .
Both ends never meet and when meet ,a confusion is created as where to start and where to finish like KANS of krsn period .
Truth is as krsn says….Jahi shatrum mahaabaaho kaamaroopam duraasadam…..the enemy in the form of desire, hard to conquer!

Therefore it is necessary to conquer double headed lust [ two ws only ] and it is a truth superior to any fact .