For Shri Nara and friends

[atanu]

Deleted

[Nara]

Originally Posted by atanu

....Before you complete your work to prove that Hindu scripture is blot,

atanu, I did not say this, you are putting words into my mouth.

But you have been told, just as warning of speed breakers.

This warning is a little puzzling to me. What exactly does this warning entail? Is it the push back I am sure to get from you and other persons opposed to my views, or do you have anything more serious in mind?

Thank you ....

[vivendi]

Originally Posted by Nara

atanu, I did not say this, you are putting words into my mouth.

really! when you say varna is a blot in society and poke holes citing VA siddhantam, what makes you believe you are not calling scriptures a blot? Where did you learn about varna? From the scriptures. So Atanu is putting words in your mouth, or is the mouth connecting the brain changing and does not remember what was said earlier?

[satay]

Admin Note

Gentlemen!

I don't understand the purpose of this thread. Could you please shed some light? Is it attack Nara personally? Let me remind you that personal attacks are against the rules of HDF.

What's the purpose of saying this:

Originally Posted by atanu

I think you should smile and shake off the burden of proving any blot. But if you still wish to show all the blots then go ahead. But you have been told, just as warning of speed breakers.

[atanu]

Deleted

[saidevo]

namaste Satay.

Atanu said in his OP:
I think you should smile and shake off the burden of proving any blot. But if you still wish to show all the blots then go ahead. But you have been told, just as warning of speed breakers.
*****

You know that this is not a personal reference (or attack) to (on) Nara. At best it is a suggestion that knowledgeable and rational atheists like Nara should consider the ultimate advaitic purport of the instructions relating to varNa and jAti in our shruti and dharma shAstras, and try to contemplate on it personally before resorting to 'prove' that varNa and jAti and the scriptures that speak of them are 'blots' on Hinduism.

When the Vedas speak of the four varNas originated from the PuruSha from different parts of his body, and KRShNa ParamAtma in GItA speaks of having created them, then is it not avidyA--ignorance, to consider that God's head is holier than his feet (in fact the opposite is true, which is why Manu says that the Shudras are pure and don't have any scriptural injunctions)?

It is this truth that those of us who seek to question varNa and jAti system should contemplate, specially when we are more logical, rational, tolerant and knowledgeable than a politician with a vested interest, who does the same thing in his own asuric manner and spreads lies and canards against Hinduism thereby diving the Hindus?

It is a curious case of atheists that they seek to attack with the severest criticism, all established norms of dharma and every concept of God and divinity in the Hindu Sanatana Dharma, since they don't have any doctrine of atheism worthwhile to subscribe to and follow. Is there a scripture/doctrine that defines all that the theistic scriptures and doctrines speak of, from the POV of atheism without resorting to attacking the theistic texts?

Although atheists attribute the absence of their own scriptural texts to go by, to the liberty they enjoy without any compulsion to follow anything, IMO, it is their feeling of living under a blanket of uncertainty and insecurity (specially when they believe in the no-soul, one-life, progeny-by-genes principle of Science) that makes them do what they seek to do.

Is it not ironical that Nara says that he does not believe in the inerrancy of the Vedas as revealed scriptures, does not believe in VA or any other Hindu philosophy or even another religion for that matter, and yet seek to prove that varNa is a blot on the scriptures that speak of the system?

[kd gupta]

Let me have my own way of the explanation…
As per gita which is known to be Sanatan or vedic dharm explanation , Krsn limits the boundaries from other prevailing religions saying that know your and remain in your own dharm .
Neeti shloka is….satyam bruyat priyam bruyat na bruyat satyam apriyam .
priyama cha anratam varje ash dharm sanatnah .
Means satya which is not pleasant should only be spoken at proper time….as vibhison speaks to ravna at proper time…paya suavsar tat, goswamiji writes , and asatya may be pleasant , should not be spoken .
Take it to varna vyavastha . Brahmin and kshatriya always have been given ample of time free as per there duties , but there duties involve more mental and less physical work, except in some time , therefore they have been directed to engage themselves not in earning money or going for bad deeds but in worship of god . In case of women vaish and shudra , the main work is working around money so their secondary work has been taken as worship and the primary work has been taken as DUTY .

The copy of other religion traditions in sanatan dharm followers is seen as Bad in worse these days .

[devotee]

Namaste Atanu,

Originally Posted by atanu

Namaste Shri Nara and Devotee

I wonder why you thought it fit to club me with Nara !

Satay has tried to defend Nara in his post ... but is it not funny to see that Nara sees only blots everywhere in Hinduism ? The Hindus have around last 10000 years of glorious history. We were economically, socially and spiritually far ahead of the westerners even in 300 BC. Is everything so bad in Hinduism ... its Advaita, VA, Dwaita .... the Vedas, the Smritis, the Itihasas & Puranas ... all are simply blots ?? If everything is so bad, I think it is better for all Hindus to commit suicide !!

I was taught in management : "Try to see something positive in your team even in the worst of a scenario because there lies the key to the door to success". "Catch him doing something right !" etc.

I think my management gurus were all wrong !

OM

[upsydownyupsy mv ss]

hmm... a serious discussion. My opinion is: "The varna system is an outstanding discovery of the early hindus, but the later hindus of the upper misunderstood the varna system and converted it into caste system for their advantage. Varna system is awesome. But jaati system is naive. Even Mahathma Gandhi 'appreciated' the varna system and not the 'caste' system. Varna system is vedic and flawless and from the scriptures, but caste system is all 'made-up' " And yes! There certainly is a BIG DIFFERENCE between the varna and the caste system. Most people consider them to be the same, hence they argue it to be a blot. And satay, neither do I see this as a personal attack on Nara.
Dear sir, Nara. Please search the forums for 'Varna system misunderstanding' and please go through the thread. Varna means basically colour. Here, colour means the colour of the soul in the present janma.
WHAT ARE YOU SAYING UPSYDOWNYUPSY MV SS? ARE YOU NAIVE? HOW CAN THE SOUL HAVE COLOUR???

NO. I'm not naive. Here colour refers to the nature. That is,
1.) Is he a noble warrior and/or a leader who protects people and justice, with his physical strength and brains even if it means violence? (Like police, military, paramilitary, scientists who work on missiles and bombs) Then he is a Kshatriya varna and not to be mixed with Kshatriya caste.
2.) Is he a noble person, who is patient, kind to others and does seva of the society and people in both big and little terms and is humble? Then he is Shudra.
3.) Is he a noble person who takes care of the society and works hard and strives for the best and who is as intelligent as a brahmin and is ready to be a Shudra at any time and attains wealth of all terms through righteousness? Then he is a Vaishya. (FARMERS, business men, the term used as 'aam admi' in india)
4.) Is he a noble person who excells in spirituality or sciences or arts or in teaching or advising the rulers or thinking or inventing or discovering? Then he is a brahmin by varna and not by caste.
Varna system is by deeds and thoughts.
The above is varna system. In varna system, all people are considered equal as all are equally important, just as even tissue or organ of a plant or animal is important, but are different in structure and function. If varna system is to be wrong (which is not), then the classification of species in biology is wrong and classification of anatomy of animals and plants is wrong. Even ants follow the varna system, also termites, also lions, also monkeys and apes, also bees. Is varna system wrong, if so, nature is wrong, which is Impossible as nature is a part of god.

Coming to the caste system, it says one who is born to a brahmin family is a brahmin, one born to a kshatriya family is a kshatriya and so on. If you still dont get the difference, again read the whole thing.

Dear sir nara and others, the scriptures are never wrong, only misunderstood

[atanu]

Originally Posted by devotee

Namaste Atanu,

I wonder why you thought it fit to club me with Nara !

OM

Namaste Devotee

Sorry. I did not club. I wished to enquire whether your guru or any hindu guru has said that Dharma Shastra is not valid? I do not club you with Shri Nara at all and thus kindly do not take it as a critique but only as a question.

Om Namah Shivaya