homosexuality

[rainycity]

I'm just wondering if homosexuality is considered a bad thing in hinduism or by most hindus? I was just reading a thread on these forums about a sikh criticism of ramakrishna which mentioned a book that claimed he was homosexual. Apparently, these claims caused a lot of controversy in india because hindus are homophobic.

[sanjaya]

Someone else on this forum posted this most interesting article which mostly summarizes my views:

Homosexuality is not a virtue

It's about an Indian court striking down a law that made homosexuality illegal. But what's interesting is the author's comments. I would like to highlight two of them.

What was the position of the state and state enacted laws in India such matters? The king or the state in India had refrained from handling most issues which the society or families could handle.

In the Indian — read Hindu — civilisational ethos, humans had never been seen as belonging to one uniform behavioural class. The Indian civilisation had recognised diversity in behaviour and morals. It therefore never imposed one moral value or rule for all. But it believed in a hierarchy of moral principles. It held out right conduct as ideal for the rest to imbibe and follow, but on their own volition. Even as it had evolved normative moral principles for the mainline society, it had subtly ignored, rather than focus on or punish, the deviants. Those who could not follow an ideal were never held as illustration for others to follow.

Regarding the issue of whether homosexuality is bad, my guess is that there's a diversity of opinions among Hindus (but if those more knowledgable of the Scriptures than me can elucidate, please feel free to cure my ignorance). In my experiene, most Hindus are socially conservative, and thus would not approve of homosexuality. I remember my own parents telling me before I left for college, "now don't come home one day and tell us you're gay!" They were of course being facetious to some extent. But I imagine that most other Indian parents have the same hope for their children. Hinduism is centered quite a bit on the family, and let's face it, homosexuality is not conducive of propagating family. However, Hinduism has never had a tradition of making statements about public policy or controlling the behavior of others, except insofar as others' behavior infringes on our personal rights. As far as homosexuality being "bad" in a moral sense, there's a long list of things that are far worse than homosexuality. Indeed I have two friends who are gay, and they're very nice people. However, it's widely accepted that the dharma of most Hindus is to have a wife and raise children (again, if anyone knows better, please feel free to correct me, because I'm mostly relying on my Hindu upbringing rather than Scriptural study here). Aside from adoption, homosexuals can't have children. I don't believe that God is going to burn someone in hell for being a homosexual. Nor do I believe in treating homosexuals badly or barring them from temples, pujas, etc. I'm not going to stand in the way of anyone who wants to be a homosexual (or who was born that way, if you prefer), and I'm not going to treat them differently or judge them. But I don't believe that homosexuality is a good thing, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

Of course for those of us who live in America, the issue of gay rights and the sanctity of marriage is going to come up. I think that such terminology is used because we're working in a Christian Western context. In a Hindu context, people have the right to do things that don't harm others, and the "sanctity" of marriage isn't going to be affected by people practicing homosexuality. Besides that, morals should be taught in the home, not by the state. So I wouldn't support laws that prohibit gays from living as they choose. And frankly I don't care whether they call it civil unions or marriage. My rights aren't affected by gays calling their partnerships marriage, and I think that many Christians merely use this issue to push their religion on the rest of us. But this doesn't mean you're going to see me at a gay rights parade, or that you'll even see me praising homosexuality. To me it's a lot like sex before marriage (or other moral ill of the reader's choice). I wouldn't do it or call it a good thing, but I don't really care if anyone else does.

[sambya]

Originally Posted by rainycity

I'm just wondering if homosexuality is considered a bad thing in hinduism or by most hindus? I was just reading a thread on these forums about a sikh criticism of ramakrishna which mentioned a book that claimed he was homosexual. Apparently, these claims caused a lot of controversy in india because hindus are homophobic.

the sikh criticism against the book on ramakrishna was not because people of india are homophobic but because it amounted to a misrepresentation of facts and an intentional distortion of historical evidence relating to his life .

just an example to help u understand the point better---
there's an event mentioned in the life of ramakrishna about how the saint went into a deep samadhi when he saw a ten year old european boy leaning against a tree in tribhanga posture(the three bended posture in which lord krishna usually stands) . the imagery of the boy caused the bhava of krishna to arise in ramakrishna's mind . this is interpreted by the author as " the swami went into a sexual trance seeing the cocked hips of a european lad." . anyone who is is conversant with the indian language , its practises and culture can point out such willful errors in every page of this malicious work done solely with the intention of creating a sensation and carving out a place for himself in international scenario .

its best if you read a life history of ramakrishna and then the disputed book and find out the truth urself .



whether it is heterosexual sex or homosexual sex ,sex of any kind agitates the mind or chitta severely and acts as a hindrance in god realization . so it is best to forsake them altogether if u strive for realization in this life itself !


god bless.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

I know little about this behavior, yet a wise person said just one thing on this matter: 'They have confused what they do with who they are'.
That was all I needed to understand and the subject was closed.


praṇām

[rainycity]

Originally Posted by yajvan

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

I know little about this behavior, yet a wise person said just one thing on this matter: 'They have confused what they do with who they are'.
That was all I needed to undersand and the subject was closed.


praṇām

it's true, some homosexuals derive a lot of their identity from their sexuality. It's no wonder, because at least in contempary western society, there's a big fixation on homosexuality and it carries a lot of stigma. Especially in the past few decades if someone was homosexual, their life was very much affected and characterized by their sexuality. It's probably very much the same today.

In western society there's a massive fixation on sex and sexuality, in hindu society the fixation seems to be on family.

Originally Posted by yajvan

Hinduism is centered quite a bit on the family, and let's face it, homosexuality is not conducive of propagating family.

Well, with the rights for homosexuals to adopt children I don't think this is neccesarily true anymore. It's too much of a generalisation. In the past homosexuals didn't have the opportunity to have a family unless they married someone of the opposite sex, which a lot of them did. But people identifying fully as homosexual had no opportunity to raise a family.

Originally Posted by sanjaya

But I don't believe that homosexuality is a good thing, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

many homosexual people are born that way and it isn't a choice. In fact I remember reading a news article about the hindu attitude to homosexuality.
It quoted a hindu who mentioned a scripture which says homosexuality is determined by a predominance of female energy caused by the time of the year when the child is born. But the scripture instructed couples to conceive at certain times to avoid having a homosexual child.

[isavasya]

Originally Posted by rainycity

I'm just wondering if homosexuality is considered a bad thing in hinduism or by most hindus? . Apparently, these claims caused a lot of controversy in india because hindus are homophobic.

Namste,

A few months ago I was watching a programme on a news channel conducted a few days after Delhi high court decriminalized homosexuality. There was a Mulla, a christian priest and arya samaj cheif swami agnivesh represented Hinduism. Where as mulla and priest called homosexuality as sick, swami agnivesh defined it as natural and persisting from ever. He quoted a few scriptures from hinduism to prove hinduism is not against homosexuality in any ways. Till then I also disliked homos, but my perception has changed now.

Though I also think there are some cases in which personality disorder or inferiority complex etc leads to homosexuality, My friend is from NIFT and there are some homos in his college, who may not be have been naturally inclined towards homosexuality.

In any ways Hinduism has not demonized homosexuality anywhere and its western and abrahmaic influence on us that we look at them the way we do.In international relation forum community I frequently saw few muslims from saudi arab (living away from saudi) telling that strict law against unlawful sex has made a huge number of saudis as homos.

[sm78]

Originally Posted by isavasya

Namste,

There was a Mulla, a christian priest and arya samaj cheif swami agnivesh represented Hinduism. ..... He quoted a few scriptures from hinduism to prove hinduism is not against homosexuality in any ways. Till then I also disliked homos, but my perception has changed now.

As far as I know Agnivesh has been kicked out of arya samaj and he is generally always making anti-hindu comments and seems like a communist in orche robe.

That aside, homosexuality is hardly mentioned except in puranic tales like that of union of shiva-vishnu, which though has a non-sexual meaning, nonetheless proves that there cannot be much against something which is part of the nature of a few people.

Common sense tells the same. Personally, based on the few homosexual people I have met, I find the weird - but I suspect this is not due to their sexuality but because of un-sympathetic environment of our society.

I am also little puzzled/interested by the fact that some people suddenly turn homosexual having previously enjoyed hetrosexuality etc.

[sambya]

in indian civilization sexuality was never a prominent identity of any person . having said that it doesnt mean that sexuality was unimportant . it had its own shastras . generally today , when we talk of shastras we think religious scriptures . but there are things like kamashashtras , dharmashashtra , shilpashashtras etc . topics like law , philosophy , science , arts all came under shastras . there are mentions of a third sex and their sexual conduct in kamashashtra

but generally sexual thoughts and practices were never assigned the highest place in the society as we often see in west . that highest position was given to values like compassion , renunciation and enlightment . even a king was supposed to practise and encourage renunciation , which is unthinkable in terms of western philosophy or psychology .

but i also feel the margin between the two sexes was very narrow in eastern thought than its western counterpart . tales of shiva vishnu union , concepts of ardhnarishswar . purusha prakriti being two sides of the same truth and suchlike concepts clearly show that line of distinction between the two sexes was somewhat permeable . perhaps this can be attributed to the advaitic thought that the true self lies beyond false indentities like sex , caste nationality etc. this thought of underlying unity and falsehood of our present perception lies at the base of indian thought . perhaps this thought is later reflected in puranic tales where a male deity or a male asura can assume a female form almost effortlessly without the fear of any stigma !

but such thoughts are essentially spiritual and philosophical and does noting to encourage or discourage homosexuality . i think ancient india was rather neutral to homosexual happenings , if it was there at that time . neither did it glorify it like ancient greece nor did it condemm it like catholics .....

[sanjaya]

Originally Posted by rainycity

many homosexual people are born that way and it isn't a choice. In fact I remember reading a news article about the hindu attitude to homosexuality.
It quoted a hindu who mentioned a scripture which says homosexuality is determined by a predominance of female energy caused by the time of the year when the child is born. But the scripture instructed couples to conceive at certain times to avoid having a homosexual child.

Hi Rainycity. Do you know what Hindu Scripture this is found in, and where? I didn't know that Hindu Scriptures ever directly address homosexuality, and I would be interested to read more on this.

Regarding whether homosexuality is congenital or not, I think the issue isn't all that relevant. Maybe some people are born with homosexual tendancies. On the other hand, many people have genetic predispositions to violence, alcoholism, and other things that we have no problem calling deviant. I believe that homosexuality is likewise deviant (i.e. different from standard practices in most societies). Unlike violence or alcoholism, it doesn't infringe on others' rights, so I don't think that anything has to be done about homosexuality on a societal level. As I mentioned earlier, Hinduism stresses the importance of teaching moral values in the home, not through legislation. Therefore, the only time I would ever "oppose" homosexuality is if the issue ever appeared in my family life.

Let's say, hypothetically, that my mom decides she's gay and that she needs to leave my dad to be with some gay lover (actually this isn't so hypothetical; in America a high-profile Christian priest and a governor have done just that). I'm not going to accept "I was born that way" for an excuse. I'm going to tell her that she has a problem, that she needs psychiatric help, and that she isn't going to break up the family and abandon her dharma as a wife and mother over some foolish sexually deviant whim. I bring up this example not to foment hatred towards gays, but simply to highlight why I view homosexuality as deviant behavior and how this affects the way I treat gays. I will oppose it only when it starts to become harmful.

Of course this is an extreme scenario. Again I want to emphasize that I believe in tolerating homosexual behavior and in treating gays with respect and friendship. However, I think that we're going a bit far when we say that homosexuality is normal or that it's equivalent to heterosexuality. Having a spouse of the opposite sex and raising children is a good thing. I don't believe that having a homosexual partner is the moral equivalent. If two people want to do this, I don't want to stand in their way. But tolerating something isn't the same as approving of it.

Anyway, I'm not terribly knowledgable on what our Scriptures say about all this (if anything), so I would be most interested in any comments about that.

[TatTvamAsi]

"Hindus are homophobic"?

In India, especially Hinduism, there was a provision made for a '3rd gender'.


In short, we don't give a damn whether someone is homosexual or not as long as they don't bother us (publicly or privately). This has been the approach of Hindus and Hinduism for thousands of years. That is why we have peacefully coexisted with each other despite our differences for millenia.
JAI HIND!

Originally Posted by rainycity

I'm just wondering if homosexuality is considered a bad thing in hinduism or by most hindus? I was just reading a thread on these forums about a sikh criticism of ramakrishna which mentioned a book that claimed he was homosexual. Apparently, these claims caused a lot of controversy in india because hindus are homophobic.