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Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

 
 
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  #21  
Old 10 November 2009, 06:04 AM
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Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

Just to be fair to those equating Sikhism as a variant of Islam, I offer anyone to please post the relevant Gurbani here where Islamic teachings are discussed regarding Abrahamic monothism, God sending prophets/messengers, or any kind of Muslim practices given as means of salvation/mukti.

And then I would ask anyone who tries to equate Sikhi with Islam to explain the shabad posted below in context of how any Muslim of any sect would view it as not being Hindu. It will be an interesting discussion, please.

ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥
achuth paarabreham paramaesur antharajaamee ||
The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.

ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥
madhhusoodhan dhaamodhar suaamee ||
He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master.

ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥
rikheekaes govaradhhan dhhaaree muralee manohar har rangaa ||1||
The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1||

ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
mohan maadhhav kirasa muraarae ||
The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego.

ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥
jagadheesur har jeeo asur sanghaarae ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons.

ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥
jagajeevan abinaasee thaakur ghatt ghatt vaasee hai sangaa ||2||
The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2||

ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
dhharaneedhhar ees narasingh naaraaein ||
The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥
dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||
The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.

ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥
baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||
O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥
banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||
Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.

ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥
sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4||
You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You.

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥
bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||
You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥
gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||
The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥
baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||
O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5||

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||
Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥
dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||
Savior of Dropadi's honor.

ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥
kamalaakanth karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||
Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥
amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||
The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.

ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥
akaal moorath jis kadhae naahee kho ||
His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥
abinaasee abigath agochar sabh kishh thujh hee hai lagaa ||7||
O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7||

ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥
sreerang baikunth kae vaasee ||
The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.

ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥
mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||
By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥
kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||
The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8||

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||
He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||
He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed.

ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥
banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||
He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥
sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||
His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints.

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥
peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥
jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
~SGGS Ji ang 1082
  #22  
Old 10 November 2009, 07:05 AM
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Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥
achuth paarabreham paramaesur antharajaamee ||
The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.

ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥
madhhusoodhan dhaamodhar suaamee ||
He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master.

Now who in this shabad is being described as Supreme Swami with the description given as Parabrahm, beyond even Brahma, and Parameshwar, the highest Ishwara?

Consider the original source:

Quote:
* īśvarah paramah krsnah,
sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahah
anādir ādir govindah, sarva-kārana-kāranam

Which translates to:

* Krishna who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes. ~Śrī Brahma-samhitā, Sloka 5.1
"Parameshwar Krishna"

ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥
rikheekaes govaradhhan dhhaaree muralee manohar har rangaa ||1||
The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1||

ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
mohan maadhhav kirasa muraarae ||
The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego.

Who is being called as the very God, one who lifts up Govardhan mountain and joyfully plays flute? Bhagavan Krishna. Can anyone imagine such to be Islamic teaching?


ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
dhharaneedhhar ees narasingh naaraaein ||
The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥
dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||
The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.


And who is Narasingh Narayan if not one of Das Avataras of Maha Vishnu?

ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥
baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||
O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||


Who is the dwarf? He is Vamana the Vishnu Avatar.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.


Who is the great warrior? Vishnu avatar Ramachandra Ji!

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥
gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||
The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥
baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||
O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5||

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||
Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥
dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||
Savior of Dropadi's honor.

Who can this be, Mukunda, Vasudeva Niranjana who is Lord of Lakshmi? Who saved Dropadi's honor? Bhagavan Krishna, purna avatar of Maha Vishnu, Supreme Lord Himself.


Lord Vishnu and Mata Lakshmi
  #23  
Old 10 November 2009, 07:31 AM
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Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

Now as to the original question, "Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

Of all Islamic sects, Sufism has been the most influenced by Sanatana Dharma. It is as if I say that I accept Judaism as a rich spiritual tradition. But, can I say that I'm a Jew? Would any Jews recognize me as a practicing Hindu Sikh never born from them, never converted to them? It flies in the face of the very definition. And although it may be a noble gesture of unity, the fact is, I am not a Jew.

The problem lies with what is the definition of a Sufi?

Snip Ji has given a perfect answer:
Quote:
"A Muslim or Sufi can only recognise Allah and the Prophet. You could probably read Hindu philsophy to support your knowledge but not recognise it as the truth."
And so did Abominable Snowman Ji:
Quote:
So, if you are Sufi then you are Muslim and are to be "all you can be." Realistically lay people probably can't meet up to the perfect model or the level of observance of religious leaders but that is the hole you're shooting for.
And so did Eastern Mind Ji:
Quote:
Of course an individual can give himself any label he wants like Vedantic spiritualist, Hindu-Christian, Sufi-Hindu. But do the leaders of faith subscribe to this. No, for the most part, unless they are those universalists who wash everything down so much there`s not much left. Just my opinion.
These answers are true. Unless you are a true Muslim, you cannot be a true Sufi. Unfortunately it is in the very definition of Islam to reject as false all other religions. This doesn't mean there aren't some linkages common to ALL religions. Truth is truth and it is all-pervading. But you can't walk several paths at once and get anywhere. You would have to stick a path and keep with it to arrive at any destination. With respect there are certain sects which unite different faiths, and I suppose you could follow a path like that. But in general, there remain vast differences between Dharmic and Abrahamic faiths.
  #24  
Old 10 November 2009, 08:15 AM
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Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

Quote:
Nevertheless, it is the integration of Sanatana Dharma and Islam. Surely there were some more intellectual Sikhs. I can think of some: the Sant Mat gurus, who did not just teach bhakti, but meditation.
Hi DavidC
That is very true and a good point. Thanks for clarifying.
I find the blend of Sanatana Dharma and Islam quite beautiful; there appears to me to be something good dualists and non-dualists alike.
With respect Jios, I believe this is based on a misunderstanding of actual Sikh teaching. Gurmat agrees with entire sanatan world-view and philosophy.

Concepts like Mukti, Guru-Chela, reincarnation and transmigration, Devatay, Avataras, four states of consciousness, four varnas, four Yugas, four Vedas, Naam jap, chakras, the 10 gates, yoga, samadhi, vikaars, an All-pervading God who we merge with who is our true Nature, Darshan, spiritual power of Guru's feet/charan, power of the sound current Primal Naad OM, power of Gurmantra, salvation/mukti attained by reciting Guru's Mantra, God as nirgun and sargun, God as philosophically best described by the Vaishnav concept Achintya Bheda Abheda, which is that God is both Object and Subject. God is Divine Beloved and also the innermost Self which is a concept both Dvaitic and Advaitic.

Quote:
Caitanya's philosophy of acintya-bhedābheda-tattva completed the progression to devotional theism. Rāmānuja had agreed with Śaṅkara that the Absolute is one only, but he had disagreed by affirming individual variety within that oneness. Madhva had underscored the eternal duality of the Supreme and the Jīva: he had maintained that this duality endures even after liberation. Caitanya, in turn, specified that the Supreme and the jīvas are "inconceivably, simultaneously one and different" (acintya-bheda-abheda). He strongly opposed Śaṅkara's philosophy for its defiance of Vyāsadeva's siddhānta. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achintya_Bheda_Abheda
I just fail to really see what Sufi teaching in Sikhi even exists that Sikhism could be considered any kind of "beautiful blend" of Sanatana Dharma and Islam. What is misunderstood is that the Sikh's Guru's were trying to bring about peaceful resolution to a hundreds years old conflict due to Mughal aggression. Sikhism stood in the middle and tried to emphasize those unifying features which did not condemn any religion as the Islamics were doing. And this was successful in spreading spiritual message to people who were open to that.

But in general the Mughals were not open to that. This open-hearted Sanatana Dharma teaching of the Gurus wound up resorting to bitter wars with devastating attrition and personal losses. It had to raise the sword simply to survive. And the open-hearted nature of Sikhi endured murders of Gurus and massacres and genocidal pogroms against Sikhs. The survival of Sikhi itself is a miracle. But it was never any kind of merger with Islam, despite the political mischievous intent of the British and Singh Sabha reform to recreate Sikh teaching and unite Muslim and Sikh in order to weaken the National unity of Hindu's at the turn of the century, and which resulted in Partition of the Punjab.

Message to God: Words of a Guru - Amazing Must Watch!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1Uw2FHZawA
  #25  
Old 10 November 2009, 08:36 AM
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Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

ਜਹਾ ਕਹਾਂ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਤੂੰ ਵਰਤੰਤਾ ॥੨॥
jehaa kehaan prabh thoon varathanthaa ||2||
You, O God, are pervading everywhere. ||2||

ਘਰਿ ਸੁਖਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
ghar sukh vasiaa baahar sukh paaeiaa ||
I dwell in peace in my home, and I am at peace outside.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਇਆ ॥੩॥੨॥
kahu naanak gur manthra dhrirraaeiaa ||3||2||
Says Nanak, the Guru has implanted His Mantra within me. ||3||2||

ਭੈਰਉ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
bhairo mehalaa 5 ||
Bhairao, Fifth Mehl:
9
ਵਰਤ ਨ ਰਹਉ ਨ ਮਹ ਰਮਦਾਨਾ ॥
varath n reho n meh ramadhaanaa ||
I do not keep fasts, nor do I observe the month of Ramadaan.

ਤਿਸੁ ਸੇਵੀ ਜੋ ਰਖੈ ਨਿਦਾਨਾ ॥੧॥
this saevee jo rakhai nidhaanaa ||1||
I serve only the One, who will protect me in the end. ||1||

ਏਕੁ ਗੁਸਾਈ ਅਲਹੁ ਮੇਰਾ ॥
eaek gusaaee alahu maeraa ||
The One Lord, the Lord of the World, is my God Allah.

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੁਹਾਂ ਨੇਬੇਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
hindhoo thurak dhuhaan naebaeraa ||1|| rehaao ||
He adminsters justice to both Hindus and Muslims. ||1||Pause||

ਹਜ ਕਾਬੈ ਜਾਉ ਨ ਤੀਰਥ ਪੂਜਾ ॥
haj kaabai jaao n theerathh poojaa ||
I do not make pilgrimages to Mecca, nor do I worship at Hindu sacred shrines.

ਏਕੋ ਸੇਵੀ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੨॥
eaeko saevee avar n dhoojaa ||2||
I serve the One Lord, and not any other. ||2||

ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰਉ ਨ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗੁਜਾਰਉ ॥
poojaa karo n nivaaj gujaaro ||
I do not perform Hindu worship services, nor do I offer the Muslim prayers.

ਏਕ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਲੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਨਮਸਕਾਰਉ ॥੩॥
eaek nirankaar lae ridhai namasakaaro ||3||
I have taken the One Formless Lord into my heart; I humbly worship Him there. ||3||

ਨਾ ਹਮ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਨ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ॥
naa ham hindhoo n musalamaan ||
I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim.


ਅਲਹ ਰਾਮ ਕੇ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਪਰਾਨ ॥੪॥
aleh raam kae pindd paraan ||4||
My body and breath of life belong to Allah - to Raam - the God of both. ||4||

ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਇਹੁ ਕੀਆ ਵਖਾਨਾ ॥
kahu kabeer eihu keeaa vakhaanaa ||
Says Kabeer, this is what I say:

ਗੁਰ ਪੀਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਖੁਦਿ ਖਸਮੁ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥੫॥੩॥
gur peer mil khudh khasam pashhaanaa ||5||3||
meeting with the Guru, my Spiritual Teacher, I realize God, my Lord and Master. ||5||3||
~SGGS Ji ang 1136


This pauri has been used to divide Sikhs and Hindus since the Tat Khalsa reformers first wrote the pamphlet, "Hum Hindu Nahin Hain" (We are not Hindus). But if you look at the whole pauri, the Guru is not saying, I am not a Muslim, I am not a Hindu, I am a SIKH! And this is the Gurbani used to prove independence of Sikh religion! Can the Guru ever be his own chela/shishya/sikh? So how can the Guru be creating another religion. Some Sikhs claim Guruji made a third Panth. And translate Panth/path as religion. Well, Nirmalay are a Panth. Udasis are a Panth. Vaishnavas are a Panth. But those are sects. They are not separate religions.
(Continued)
  #26  
Old 10 November 2009, 09:00 AM
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Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

ਨਾ ਹਮ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਨ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ॥
naa ham hindhoo n musalamaan ||
I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim.
So what is the meaning of the pauri which is saying Guruji is "independent of religion" if he is not establishing a new one?

And here is the key:

ਪ੍ਰਥਮੇ ਤਿਆਗੀ ਹਉਮੈ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ॥
prathhamae thiaagee houmai preeth ||
First, I renounced my egotistical love of myself.

ਦੁਤੀਆ ਤਿਆਗੀ ਲੋਗਾ ਰੀਤਿ ॥
dhutheeaa thiaagee logaa reeth ||
Second, I renounced the ways of the world.

ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਦੁਰਜਨ ਮੀਤ ਸਮਾਨੇ ॥
thrai gun thiaag dhurajan meeth samaanae ||
Renouncing the three qualities, I look alike upon friend and enemy.

ਤੁਰੀਆ ਗੁਣੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧ ਪਛਾਨੇ ॥੨॥
thureeaagun mil saadhh pashhaanae ||2||
And then, the fourth state of bliss was revealed to me by the Holy One. ||2||

ਸਹਜ ਗੁਫਾ ਮਹਿ ਆਸਣੁ ਬਾਧਿਆ ॥
sehaj gufaa mehi aasan baadhhiaa ||
In the cave of celestial bliss, I have obtained a seat.

ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਹਦੁ ਵਾਜਿਆ ॥
joth saroop anaahadh vaajiaa ||
The Lord of Light plays the unstruck melody of bliss.

ਮਹਾ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥
mehaa anandh gur sabadh veechaar ||
I am in ecstasy, contemplating the Word of the Guru's Shabad.

ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਸਿਉ ਰਾਤੀ ਧਨ ਸੋਹਾਗਣਿ ਨਾਰਿ ॥੩॥
pria sio raathee dhhan sohaagan naar ||3||
Imbued with my Beloved Husband Lord, I am the blessed, happy soul-bride. ||3|
~SGGS Ji ang 370


What is Turiya?

Quote:
In Hindu philosophy, turiya (or chaturtha) is a state of pure consciousness. It is a fourth state of consciousness that underlies and transcends the three common states of consciousness: the state of waking consciousness (jagrata), the state of dreaming (svapna), and dreamless sleep (susupti)...

The Mandukya Upanishad defines turiya as:
"The fourth state is not that which is conscious of the subjective, nor that which is conscious of the objective, nor that which is conscious of both, nor that which is simple consciousness, nor that which is all-sentient mass, nor that which is all darkness. It is unseen, transcendent, the sole essence of the consciousness of self, the completion of the world..."


The Bhagavata Purana, verse 11.15.16 describes Bhagavan as (the fourth), defined in the turiyakhye Bhagavad Gita, verse 7.3 as:
"Within the material world the Lord appears as the three Visnus (gunas). The original form of the Lord is another form still. He is beyond material nature and thus known as the fourth..."


"The fourth dimension, turiya, is the ground of our existence and the goal of all transcendentalists. For the Vedanta philosophers it is perceived variously, either as undifferentiated consciousness or a relationship with the divine. Regarding the latter, Gaudiya Vedanta concludes that love is greater than ourselves, and it is the greatest aspect of God, one that he himself is motivated by. For them, the nondual consciousness of Vedanta philosophy is realized when we know that we do not belong to ourselves, what to speak of anything belonging to us. If there is any time at which we can accurately say that something belongs to us, it is when, having given ourselves in love to God, we can say that 'he is ours'."

"This is the Krsna (Krishna) conception of Godhead, one in which God appears not as God, nor finite souls as finite souls. Both interrelate intimately as lover and beloved, Krsna and his gopis, beyond any sense of each others' ontological reality, yet beyond the material illusion as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turiya
The Guru Jyoth was speaking from the enlightenment of a higher understanding which did not perceive distinctions of duality such as "friend or foe" or "Muslim or Hindu." And from that state of brahmgyan where Guruji's consciousness was merged with the God, Guru spoke as a God-conscious being. This is not the same thing as "rejecting Hindu religion and inventing a new one." Guruji is above religion. And that does not divorce Him from the eternal truths of Sanatana Dharma or the same Vedic concepts like "Turiya" He uses in Gurbani to describe His own enlightenment/"jivan-mukti." In non-dual consciousness, how can Guru Ji have established a third religion?

And so the truth remains that Sikhi is an obvious part of Sanatana Dharma. Philosophically according to Gurmat theological teachings, all of these concepts originate in what is termed "Hinduism." There is no Islamic cosmology at all. The goal and end result of any enlightenment is Turiya consciousness which no longer perceives duality distinctions. And this is the correct meaning of the Shabad, not a rejection of the underlying core Vedantic belief structure.

~bhul chak maaf
  #27  
Old 10 November 2009, 09:09 AM
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Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harjas Kaur View Post
I'm surprised you said you practiced Hinduism for ten years but don't know the difference between a linga and a yoni.
Uh, excuse me sir or madame? Who said I didn't? I think you're reading to much into things and I am not entirely sure that there is black stone shards in there shaped like a yoni though I have never been inside the ka'aba perhaps you can provide a picture? The post in which I think you ma have been trying to post said pictures, two pictures did not come up and only the third picture of the lingam should up, past that, I am withdrawing from this discussion due to lack of research and knowledge on the subject. You have presented a lot of information and I thank you, I will look into this further, I think perhaps I may have misunderstood what exactly your main argument was.
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  #28  
Old 10 November 2009, 09:44 AM
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Harjas Kaur Harjas Kaur is offline
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Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harjas Kaur
I'm surprised you said you practiced Hinduism for ten years but don't know the difference between a linga and a yoni.
Uh, excuse me sir or madame? Who said I didn't? I think you're reading to much into things and I am not entirely sure that there is black stone shards in there shaped like a yoni though I have never been inside the ka'aba perhaps you can provide a picture? Past that, I am withdrawing from this discussion due to lack of research and knowledge on the subject.
You just did it again ji! The black stone cannot be shaped like a yoni because it represents the linga! So when you keep talking about the kaaba or the black stone as being the yoni it's all mixed up. These are pretty basic concepts so I was just surprised you would be mixing them up. No offense intended.

The linga is the representation of many mystical powers far beyond physical, but simplist analogy, it is MALE. The yoni also represents many things but simplest analogy, it is female. (I too am female, the Sikh surname Kaur is the giveaway).


The protruding phallic part is the Shiva Linga, and the vaginal shaped base is the yoni.


The black stone is broken. And only fragments of it remain. They are embedded in the yoni shaped frame.




Here is a painting of Mohamed placing the al Hajar al Aswad onto a cloth before it was broken into fragments. As you see it was decidedly "linga" shaped as you can compare with the Shiva linga in the photo below.

  #29  
Old 10 November 2009, 10:02 AM
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Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

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Originally Posted by Harjas Kaur View Post
You just did it again ji! The black stone cannot be shaped like a yoni because it represents the linga! So when you keep talking about the kaaba or the black stone as being the yoni it's all mixed up.
I see, my confusion was I thought you were talking about inside the ka'aba where idols used to stored and I thought you were saying that it contained black stones shaped like a yoni, my apologies. I see what you're getting at now, interesting, again as I said previously you have given me a lot to research.
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Old 10 November 2009, 10:28 AM
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Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

The kaaba is the black rectangular building. And inside it were originally 360 idols the center of which were the three daughter goddesses of the Moon and their father the Sun which Mohamed smashed. But he kept the al hajar al aswad, which you can see from the diagram below (bottom center of picture) it's attached to one of the outer walls. There are some interesting stories that link Sanskrit names to some of the 360 gods, but I haven't been able to verify it. Also there are some references to Mohamed in Bhavishya Purana calling him the incarnation of an evil demon who is fighting with Lord Shiva. Shri Guru Granth Sahib says the Muslims are sign of Kali Yuga.

ਤਿਹੁ ਜੁਗ ਕੇਰਾ ਰਹਿਆ ਤਪਾਵਸੁ ਜੇ ਗੁਣ ਦੇਹਿ ਤ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
thihu jug kaeraa rehiaa thapaavas jae gun dhaehi th paaeeai ||1|| rehaao ||
The justice of the previous three ages is gone. One obtains virtue, only if the Lord bestows it. ||1||Pause||

ਕਲਿ ਕਲਵਾਲੀ ਸਰਾ ਨਿਬੇੜੀ ਕਾਜੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਹੋਆ ॥
kal kalavaalee saraa nibaerree kaajee kirasanaa hoaa ||
In this turbulent age of Kali Yuga, Muslim law decides the cases, and the blue-robed Qazi is the judge.

ਬਾਣੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬੇਦੁ ਅਥਰਬਣੁ ਕਰਣੀ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਲਹਿਆ ॥੫॥
baanee brehamaa baedh athharaban karanee keerath lehiaa ||5||
The Guru's Bani has taken the place of Brahma's Veda, and the singing of the Lord's Praises are good deeds. ||5||

ਪਤਿ ਵਿਣੁ ਪੂਜਾ ਸਤ ਵਿਣੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਜਤ ਵਿਣੁ ਕਾਹੇ ਜਨੇਊ ॥
path vin poojaa sath vin sanjam jath vin kaahae janaeoo ||
Worship without faith; self-discipline without truthfulness; the ritual of the sacred thread without chastity - what good are these?

ਨਾਵਹੁ ਧੋਵਹੁ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਚੜਾਵਹੁ ਸੁਚ ਵਿਣੁ ਸੋਚ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੬॥
naavahu dhhovahu thilak charraavahu such vin soch n hoee ||6||
You may bathe and wash, and apply a tilak mark to your forehead, but without inner purity, there is no understanding. ||6||

ਕਲਿ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ਕਤੇਬ ਕੁਰਾਣੁ ॥
kal paravaan kathaeb kuraan ||
In Kali Yuga, the Koran and the Bible have become famous.

ਪੋਥੀ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਰਹੇ ਪੁਰਾਣ ॥
pothhee panddith rehae puraan ||
The Pandit's scriptures and the Puraanas are not respected.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਉ ਭਇਆ ਰਹਮਾਣੁ ॥
naanak naao bhaeiaa rehamaan ||
O Nanak, the Lord's Name now is Rehmaan, the Merciful.

ਕਰਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਤੂ ਏਕੋ ਜਾਣੁ ॥੭॥
kar karathaa thoo eaeko jaan ||7||
Know that there is only One Creator of the creation. ||7||
~SGGS Ji ang 903




Hajar Aswad or the black stone really doesn't exist anymore except as small fragments. It's interesting the way they embedded it in a yoni shape, especially when it used to be a linga shape.


Kaaba temple building


It begs the question who is calling who an "idol" worshipper and a kaffir. They are showing reverence for broken pieces of a rock only because their Prophet once kissed and adored it, not because they believe it is representation of their God even.

Last edited by Harjas Kaur : 10 November 2009 at 10:40 AM.
 


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