Darkness of knowledge?

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté

Originally Posted by atanu

Nothing can be simpler.

what more can be said ...
praṇām

[chandu_69]

Originally Posted by atanu

Namaste chandu,

I showed Shankara Bhasya not to argue but since you said that you could not find it

.

I am talking About the verse 9 of Upanishad.

However, a

s always, I agree with you. There is no point. The actual content of the Upanishad is very simple:

6. He who perceives all beings in the Self alone, and the Self in all beings, does not entertain any hatred on account of that perception.

7. When a man realises that all beings are but the Self, what delusion is there, what grief, to that perceiver of oneness?

Nothing can be simpler. If one fails to understand this simple thing then only one sees evils all around -- starting with Muslims, then Christians, then Gandhi, and then Shankaracharya. Finally, Hinduism itself may be abandoned?

Non Sequitur. The contentious verse in question is 9.

I am asking for shankara bhashya of the verse in question.Please provide it with authentic reference;

[atanu]

I am talking About the verse 9 of Upanishad.
Non Sequitur. The contentious verse in question is 9.

I am asking for shankara bhashya of the verse in question.Please provide it with authentic reference;

Namaste Chandu,



Do you think that you will appreciate even if I did as you want? Can we not be simple? If we disagree we disagree. So what? The dictum remains:

6. He who perceives all beings in the Self alone, and the Self in all beings, does not entertain any hatred on account of that perception.

7. When a man realises that all beings are but the Self, what delusion is there, what grief, to that perceiver of oneness?

-------------------------------

The individual's delusion goes only on knowing the Self but we think that we understand more than sages.

So, first you tell me something. As per Vishistadvaita, the Karma is without beginning (you may check it up). So, is Karma binding on Brahman. If not then why?


Shri Krishna clearly says that Arjuna know that you are not the doer. Yet we all are deluded of our accumulated karma. Why?

Once, you are clear about the above two points, your doubts will automatically vanish.

Om Namah Shivaya

[satay]

Admin Note

namaskar,

I have moved some of your posts to this thread http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4814

Thanks,

[atanu]

Friends,

Below is the evidence that Shri Shankara purported the Isha Upanishad in accordance with shashtra. Shankara, beginning from the second verse of the upanishad holds that the way of karma has to culminate in Jnana, which only grants the ultimate freedom.

Isha

2. By performing karma in this world (as enjoined by the scriptures) should one yearn to live a hundred years. Thus action does not bind thee, the doer. There is no other way than this.
----------------------
Most commentator gloss over the fact that only the rare can live upto hundred and still rarer will be the karmik who can do karma as per nidhi throughout the span of hundred years.

It is Shankara alone, who reinstated the Vedic understanding. Satapatha Brahmana verses follow:

10:2:6:8. Those who pass away in the years below twenty are consigned to the days and nights as their worlds; and those who (pass away) in the years above twenty and below forty, to the half-moons; and those who (pass away) in the (years) above forty and below sixty, to the months; and those who (pass away) in the (years) above sixty and below eighty, to the seasons; and those who (pass away) in the (years) above eighty and below a hundred (are consigned) to the year; and he alone who lives a hundred years or more attains to that immortal (life).

10:2:6:9. Only by many sacrifices, indeed, is a single day, or a single night (of life) gained; and only he who builds the one hundred and one-fold (altar), or he who lives a hundred years, is certain of his attaining to that immortal (life). But he, indeed, builds a one hundred and one-fold (altar) who carries him (Ukhya Agni) for a year: hence one should only build (an altar for) such an (Agni) who has been carried for a year. Thus much as to the deity.

13:2:1:6. But, verily, he who offers the oblations straight away, is liable to fall (pass) right away. He does not go beyond a hundred and one: were he to go beyond a hundred and one, he would deprive the Sacrificer of his vital power. He offers a hundred and one, for man has a life of a hundred (years), and his own self is the one hundred and first:

--------------------

The verses say that only by living for hundred years and carrying out sacrifices throughout one is certain to attain immortal life. But it adds that by doing many sacrifices one day or one night is added to life. The 100 years is specified because it is the life span Prajapti designed for himself.

But the verses further say that by building a fire altar (Breath-Mind) of One hundred and one fold, the sacrificer succeeds. Here again 100 years means one's full life. And the extra one year is for the self.

---------------
10:5:4:16. Regarding this there is this verse--'By knowledge they ascend that (state) where desires have vanished: sacrificial gifts go not thither, nor the fervid practisers of rites without knowledge;'--for, indeed, he who does not know this does not attain to that world either by sacrificial gifts or by devout practices, but only to those who know does that world belong.

Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

Originally Posted by atanu

Friends,
It is Shankara alone, who reinstated the Vedic understanding. Satapatha Brahmana verses follow:

10:2:6:8. ----- and he alone who lives a hundred years or more attains to that immortal (life).
10:2:6:9. Only by many sacrifices, indeed, is a single day, or a single night (of life) gained; and only he who builds the one hundred and one-fold (altar), or he who lives a hundred years, is certain of his attaining to that immortal (life). But he, indeed, builds a one hundred and one-fold (altar) who carries him (Ukhya Agni) for a year: hence one should only build (an altar for) such an (Agni) who has been carried for a year. Thus much as to the deity.

13:2:1:6. But, verily, he who offers the oblations straight away, is liable to fall (pass) right away. He does not go beyond a hundred and one: were he to go beyond a hundred and one, he would deprive the Sacrificer of his vital power. He offers a hundred and one, for man has a life of a hundred (years), and his own self is the one hundred and first:

Om Namah Shivaya

The above three verses were summarised in the Atmhatya thread as below.

Originally posted by Atanu:
Either one lives for 100 years performing karma as per nidhi.
Or, one sets up a sacrificial altar of 101 fold, including 100 years of possible life and one extra for the self.
The destiny of the person of the first path is determined by the laws of nature automatically. If one does work for 100 years as per the law (nidhi) then one gets moksha. Else the ritam controls the distribution of the fruits of all accumulated work, spread over lives. The second person, when the 101 fold sacrifice is full, attains moksha.

In respect of the latter quote from the thread Atmahatya, Shri Yajvan wrote the following:

Originally posted by yajvan

Can you be so kind as to take us deeper-and-wider ( better understanding, implications, etc) into this knowledge? Perhaps a new post may be in order?

The original subject is present in RV 10.14.8, which speaks of uniting with the good works in heaven and gaining a new purified body.

sa'M gachasva pitR'bhiH sa'M yame'neSTApUrte'na parame' vyo`man /
hitvA'yAvadya'm pu'nar a'stam e'hi sa'M gachasva tanvA` suva'rcAH //8//

Unite with the Fathers, with Yama, unite with [that which you] have
offered and other good works in the highest heaven/
having left behind flaws - come home, unite with your [new] vigorous body.,

We look into Prashna Upanishad for further guidance.

Prashna Upanishad:

I.9. SAMVATSARO VAI PRAJAPATIS TASYAYANE
DKSINAN COTTARAM CA. TAD YE HA VAI TAD
ISTAPURTE KRTAM ITY UPASATE TE CANDRAMASAM
EVA LOKAM ABHIJAYANTE. TA EVA PUNAR
AVARTANTE TASMAD ETA RSAYAH PRAJAKAMA
DAKSINAM PRATI-PRADYANTE. ESA HA VAI RAYIR
YAH PITRYANAH.

The year indeed is Prajapati. This has two ayanas (paths), the Southern and the Northern. So those who devote themselves to sacrifices, constructions (of tanks) and doing (gifts) istapurta-krta) win the world of the Moon : and those alone return (to the world of Birth). Therefore those seers desirous of progeny take up the Southern path. Rayi indeed is that which is the path of the fathers.
isapurte krtam : doing actions such as sacrifices, construction of tanks and giving gifts;

1-10. ATHOTTARENA TAPASA BRAHMACARYENA
SRADDHAYA VIDYANA" TMANAM ANVISYAADIYAM
ABHIJAYANTE. ETAD VAI PRANANAM AYATANAM
ETAD AMRTAM ABHAYAM ETAT PARAYANAM
ETASMAN NA PUNARAVARTANTA ITY ESA
NIRODHAH. TAD ESA SLOKAH.

Then by the northern (path) having sought the self by means of tapas, brahmacarya, faith, knowledge, attain the Sun (Āditya). This is the abode of breaths. This is immortality void of fear. This the supreme goal. From this (the souls) never return. This is the prevention (to return). Regarding this is the verse.

The Prasna Upanisad 1. 9 advises istapurta --Vedic sacrifices (ista ) and charitable work (purta )--for it is by istapurta that the soul enjoys cycle of birth and death and purifies itself. But 1.10 advises the northern path comprising, faith, knowledge of Savitar (Sun), Tapas, and Brahmacharya for immortality.

Brhadaranyaka Upanisad 4. 4. 7 also states that one acheives immortality in the timeless Brahman upon the departure of all material desires--sarve pramucyante kamah. Many ascribe total cessation of sexual activity as Brahmacharya, as a requirement spoken of in Prashna Upanishad. But further in Prashna Upanishad:

I.13. AHORATRO VAI PRAJAPATIS TASYAHAR EVA PRANO
PATRIR EVA RAYIH, PRAAM VA ETE.
PRAKASHANDANTI YA DIVA RATYA SAMYUJYANTE.
BRAHAMACARYAM EVA TAD YAD RATRAV RATYA
SAMYUJYANTE.

The day and night indeed are Prajapati. His day time is breath. His night is rayi. Those who enjoy sexually during day time waste their breath : (whereas) sexual enjoyment during night time is Brahmacarya itself.

The point is that 100 years of penance, austerity, and istapurtam karma does not confer Moksha. But building an altar of fire (a mind joined to Savitar) of 101 fold, including 100 for possible 100 years of life and 1 extra for self, surely confers Moksha. '1' extra is sacrifice of the self. And 100 is sacrifice of the life force. One can be sahaja and need not go through various guilts and remorses, by surrending the self once and for all. Brahmacharya is not total sexual abstinence but abidance of mind in Brahman. Those who fail to comprehend the non-existence of self, need to be the doer of all correct lawful karma.

Hope this post will suit the purpose of explaing Ishtapurtam.

Om Namah Shivaya

[grames]

Is this thread still active.
I would request Yajvan to re-read the whole thread and i want to actually share something about the Verse 9 if he is still interested.

Thanks

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté grames,

Originally Posted by grames

Is this thread still active.
I would request Yajvan to re-read the whole thread and i want to actually share something about the Verse 9 if he is still interested.

Thanks

Please feel free to offer your thoughts. I will re-read the thread and will be happy to follow along. The īśāvāsya upaniṣad is one of my favorites.

praṇām

[smaranam]

Namaste all

How did I end up on this thread ? The credit goes to the forum software (similar threads)

the īśāvāsya upaniṣad , 9th śloka informs us of the following:
andhaṁ tamaḥ praviśanti ye avidyām upāsate |
tato bhūya iva te tamo ya u vidyāyṁ ratāḥ ||

Those who worship (upāsana) ignorance (avidyā) enter/move forth (praviśanti) into blind darkness (andha-tamaḥ);
yet ( 'u' or on the other hand) those that delight (ratā or are enamored) with knowledge ( vidyā or vidyāyṁ) in the same manner (iva) fall into or are possessed ( r become i.e. bhūya) by darkness (tamas).

How can this be? How can one that pursues vidyā fall into greater darkness?

Although explanations have been given, here is one that I do not see here or missed :

The one who has knowledge is in darkness if they are proud of their knowledge, in ego over it, and think "I have this knowledge." The clue is in the word "ratah" - they are enamored, delighted but it is somewhat similar to darkness of the ignorant who delights in worldly pleasure because they are engrossed in the glory.

The Isha Upanishad is also warning here of the sattva guNa predominance stage - it can be detrimental if one lets false-ego get in between and are proud of their righteousness. BhagvAn Shri KRshNa also says this and Sant DnyAneshwar elaborates on it in his bhAvArta deepikA a.k.a. DnyAneshwari, a poetic commentary on the Bhagvad Gita.

* For those interested - KRshNa disappeared from among the Gopis when each started getting proud and thinking KRshNa was only hers alone. Then they sang the beautiful Gopi geet and KRshNa appeared in front of them in all His beauty and glory.

praNAm

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté smaranam,

Originally Posted by smaranam

Namaste all

is also warning here of the sattva guNa predominance stage - it can be detrimental if one lets false-ego get in between and are proud of their righteousness.

You offer a finer point here. I see it from a slightly different angle. If pride is sneaking in to this sattva guṇa stage, it suggests a blemish. This blemish is that of rago-guṇa if the pride becomes excessive. Hence, sattva guṇa then is not well established ( as I see it) and one may fall in and out of this most pure state.

praṇām