Darkness of knowledge?

[Onkara]

Namasté

Verse 15 is indeed a puzzling verse. Is the golden disk symbolic of consciousness? The solution is provided partly in verse 16 of the translation I found online:

15. The door of the True is covered with a golden disk. Open that, O Pushan, that we may see the nature of the True.


16. O Pushan, only seer, Yama (judge), Surya (sun), son of Pragapati, spread thy rays and gather them! The light which is thy fairest form, I see it. I am what He is (viz. the person in the sun).

Source.

From this my sensation is that the inner consciousness is comparable to the light of the sun i.e. “Spread thy rays… the light which is they fairest form, I see it”. We know this could not be sunlight at its most common level because we are then told “I am what He is”. For me this reflects on the sun being an essential life provider, much like consciousness.

I continue to be interested in others interpretations. I also wonder if there is reference to other parts of the Vedas (with which I am not yet acquainted) in this metaphor?

I would also like to offer a following observation on verse 2 and would enjoy your feedback. We have touched lightly on it earlier but it still remains in my mind as it describes where the aspirant finds herself / himself before enlightenment, that is; not wanting to die, but desiring to live for a long time:

Verse II. If one should desire to live in this world a hundred years, one should live performing Karma (righteous deeds). Thus thou mayest live; there is no other way. By doing this, Karma (the fruits of thy actions) will not defile thee.

Here we are being reminded that it is our desires which must be counter-acted by performing karma (righteous deeds). It is a desire to live in this world for one hundred years. So in order to continue as we are, we are being reminded that there is no other way to live with this desire for longevity than to continue on the path of karma.

The Upanishad then goes on to take the aspirant further by telling us that that other considerations which must be seen and surpassed to arrive at the ultimate truth. In my humble opinion it is not necessary to say that the desire to live a long time is wrong as it is all part of wisdom of the Upanishad. None the less when the grace of enlightenment is unveiled there is no longer action (Karma) and no longer desire that requires individual action. There is not even desire to live or to die as it becomes clear that it is all part of Brahman. I feel this verse is a prelude to furthering our awakening and not a final answer to those who wish to go further on into enlightenment.

[devotee]

Namaste Snip,

From this my sensation is that the inner consciousness is comparable to the light of the sun i.e. “Spread thy rays… the light which is they fairest form, I see it”.

I am not able to say anything at this moment on this view. However, as Yajvan ji says, the hint lies in, "This Golden Orb covers the Truth". You have given another excellent hint : "The Purusha within the Sun with the golden orb is none but I alone".

I have done some research on internet since then & I found a good explanation from Swami Nirmalanand Giri. I shall reproduce the excerpt below for further contemplation on this :

The “golden orb” has more than one meaning, all of which are significant.
1) The most obvious meaning of the golden orb is the sun itself. All plant, animal, and human life on this planet depend upon the sun. It is the subtle powers of sunlight which stimulate growth and evolution. Sunlight particularly stimulates the activity of the higher centers in the brain, especially that of the pineal gland. Even in the depths of the earth a sensitive man can tell when the sun rises and sets above him. The sun appears to illuminate
us, but it is a light that covers the Light in order to lead us to the Light. We must use it to go beyond it.

2) All things have an inner and outer life, and that includes the sun. We may say that there is the outer sun of the material universe, and there is also the metaphysical sun of the psychic universe. They operate simultaneously, being the same thing. The sun truly awakens us in the deepest sense. As the germinating seed struggles upward toward the sun and out into its
life-giving rays, so all higher forms of life reach out for the sun, which acts as a metaphysical magnet, drawing them upward and outward toward ever-expanding consciousness. The Chandogya Upanishad discusses it in this way: “Even as a great extending highway runs between two villages, this one and that yonder, even so the rays of the sun go to both these worlds, this one and that yonder. They start from the yonder sun and enter into the nadis.
They start from the nadis and enter into the yonder sun.…When a man departs from this body, then he goes upwards by these very rays or he goes up with the thought of Om. As his mind is sailing, he goes to the sun. That, verily, is the gateway of the world, an entering in for the knowers, a shutting out for the non-knowers.”

The solar rays do not just flow into this world, they also draw upward through the sun and beyond. In the human body the process of exhalation and inhalation is related to solar energy, and much of the solar power on which we subsist is drawn into the body through our breathing. The solar rays do not just strike the surface of our body, but actually penetrate into the physical nerves (nadis). The nadis are also the channels in the astral body that correspond to the physical nerves. Just as the electrical impulses flow through the physical nerves, the subtle life force, or prana, flows through the subtle nadis and keeps us alive and functioning.

The prana, then, is a vehicle for the solar energies that produce evolution.
When the individual comes into manifestation on this earth he passes from the astral world into the material plane by means of the sun, which is a mass of exploding astral energies, not mere flaming gases. And when the individual has completed his course of evolution within this plane, upon the death of his body he rises upward in his subtle body and passes through the sun into the higher worlds, there to evolve even higher or to pass directly into the depths of the transcendent Brahman.

3) The golden orb is also the entire creation, the means by which through experience the individual spirits can evolve to perfect conscious union with God. Without it we would be unable to attain that union. Yet, just as we use a ladder or stair to ascend and then step beyond it, in the same way the creation is meant to be eventually transcended. We must therefore keep both these aspects in mind while living in this world.

4) The golden orb is also our own mind–that which perceives the world around us and the intelligence which comprehends what is going on and directs our lives accordingly. Potential is not enough; there must be actualization. It is our mind alone that can lead us beyond the mind, our intelligence alone that can lead us onward to intuition. At all stages the mind and intelligence are “golden,” but if we allow ourselves to become stagnated at any point they
rapidly “tarnish” and turn from beneficial to harmful. Immersed in this creation, we are like the fish that must keep perpetually moving for they will die of suffocation if they come to a standstill. If we do not move forward we shall move backward–and often mistake it for progress. We must Get On and Get Beyond.
5) Our own self (atman) is also the golden orb. We must come to know our self–our true self–and delight in the self and wonder at its nature. But that is not enough. We must then pass onward to experience the Self of our self, the Paramatman. In a sense we transcend the self–but of course we do not, since the Supreme Self and our individual self are one. This transcendence must ever be kept in mind, for out of ignorance and even laziness a lot of people like the idea that we need only enter into the experience of our self and that is the end. The same wrong-headed view abrogates the need for our evolution and assumes that if we must smash the machine we will get the picture–or even worse, that there is no picture to see or even a seer to see it. However cleverly this view may be worded or how sophisticated it appears, it is nihilism of the deadliest sort, a ruinous pitfall.
6) The golden orb is also the evolutionary impulse within all things which, though life itself to the evolving spirit, yet urges us to continual transcendence of its various stages until we transcend it as well. It is a golden stair that urges us onward to the heights where it cannot
come.

In my opinion, the fourth is the best description of the Golden Orb. The mind is the golden orb which "creates" this universe & obscures the Truth.

I shall get back to 2nd verse again in my next post.

OM

[chandu_69]

The following site gives Somewhat straight forward(less advanced..perhaps) translation and explanation to the Upanishad quoting the preceding succeding verses

(http://www.dvaita.org/sources/shruti/translation.html)

And Advaita explanation for Avidya

(http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses...brahmanian.htm)

jIva, brahman Itself deluded as it were

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté
If I may let me offer another way of looking at this 15th śloka. I will need a minute to set the stage on this golden vessel, container, plate or pot.

• hiraṇmaya हिरण्मय - golden , gold-coloured
• pātra पात्र - a drinking vessel , goblet , bowl , cup , dish , pot , plate

Just a friendly note that we are in the file-folder called uttara and hence some new/deeper concepts are discussed here; hence some 'open-ness' to new ideas may be in order as one reads.

Lets consider 2 views: classical ( traditional ) and a deeper view more esoteric , saṃketa (hint) or dravya¹ - substance, the ingredients of anything.

These two views are found in the word upaniṣad and is worth mentioning as it sets up the conversation properly. We know īśāvāsya as a upaniṣad and we are familiar with two naming conventions of upaniṣad.

The Classical view
In and of itself upaniṣad is defined as a esoteric doctrine , secret doctrine - some hidden wisdom.

Saṃketa view
upa + ni + ṣad
upa is to sit near, down, below, by the side of + ni is 'near by' or nikaṭa + sad is to sit down before; yet this 'ṣa' of ṣad is what is of importance. It (ṣa) means wise, learned. It also means eternal happiness , final emancipation.
So we have sit down near, by, the side of the wise and learned. From here we can surmise one gains 'ṣa' eternal happiness , final emancipation.

Note that upaniṣad is rooted (√) in sad, to sit down. This 'sad' is also another way of writing 'sat' and we know this as being , existing. In its masculine use it is a good, wise man.
If upaniṣad ended with śad - then this śad is to destroy, remove, throw down. And what is it destroying? Ignorance.

So we can see how profound this upaniṣad word is - to sit near the wise, which will destroy ignorance, bring eternal happiness via final emancipation.

Like that we can look at this 15th sloka and the notion of this golden disc, hiraṇmaya pātra in two ways.

Classical view
That of āvaraṇa (covering, hiding) śakti (energy) of māyā. That is, the covering of the truth, of reality with the energy of māyā. This which appears to be one thing but is not. Hence the śloka says O' Pūṣan¹ uncover it, remove it so I may be hold it( Reality).

What is reality covered by? Ignorance. And what fuels this ignorance? Māyā - as the Infinite is measured out in 'things' , in finite pieces of the world. Many call this māyā ~illusion~ ( I am not a fan of this, but understand why it is used). That is the illusion of this golden vessel, of its 'value', gold and perceived value! Yet the true treasure is below this gold vessel or plate and that is Reality.

One could even argue the attachment to things, those things that are considered precious 'gold' in the opinion of people, that wish not to give this up (attachment), as they find the value so enticing - this is what holds one back from Reality and what the ṛṣi is asking Pūṣan to remove as he is a remover of obstacles.

Saṃketa view
For this view I offer the words of svāmī muni nārāyaṇa prāsad; He sees this word 'disc' we have talked of as a vessel, a pot, a container in a different light. He is of the opinion the ṛṣi is telling the seeker the following:

If you think what I have just said ( in the past śloka-s) reveals what you expect to realize you are mistaken. What I have shown you through these words is simply a golden vessel in which what you seek is hidden.
The words I have uttered may should very attractive and meaningful just like a golden vessel. Therefore you may mistake the vessel for the priceless treasure you're in search of. Do not be misled. Be prepared in your mind to open this golden vessel-like wording I have used to perceive directly the unsaid Reality preserved ( residing) therein.

This IMHO is a very interesting POV one must consider… is it the only view? Nope. Yet a POV that opens new meaning for the serious inquisitor.

praṇām

words

• dravya द्रव्य- elementary substance ; the ingredients or materials of anything ; also another name for gold
• Puṣ पुष् is to cause to thrive or prosper , nourish; puṣan is one of the ādityā-s. He nourishes the earth and the yajamāna. We find Him called out in the ṛg ved. 1.42 as a remover of obstacles

[chandu_69]

Namaste

Just a friendly note that we are in the file-folder called uttara and hence some new/deeper concepts are discussed here; hence some 'open-ness' to new ideas may be in order as one reads.

Quite right.I have edited my post to indicate that the links give ordinary explanation(not so advanced).

[chandu_69]

Saṃketa view
For this view I offer the words of svāmī muni nārāyaṇa prāsad; He sees this word 'disc' we have talked of as a vessel, a pot, a container in a different light. He is of the opinion the ṛṣi is telling the seeker the following:

If you think what I have just said ( in the past śloka-s) reveals what you expect to realize you are mistaken. What I have shown you through these words is simply a golden vessel in which what you seek is hidden.
The words I have uttered may should very attractive and meaningful just like a golden vessel. Therefore you may mistake the vessel for the priceless treasure you're in search of. Do not be misled. Be prepared in your mind to open this golden vessel-like wording I have used to perceive directly the unsaid Reality preserved ( residing) therein.

This IMHO is a very interesting POV one must consider…

There appears to be a problem in considering PATRA as VESSEL or POT in this verse because it is talking about mukham = face.

15 hiranmayena patrena satyasyapihitam mukham |
tat tvam pusannapavrnu satyadharmaya drstaye

Face covered with a POT or VESSEL appears, to me atleast, to be quite Unlikely.

That is my somewhat MY less advanced understanding.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namasté chandu_69

Originally Posted by chandu_69

There appears to be a problem in considering PATRA as VESSEL or POT in this verse because it is talking about mukham = face.

15 hiranmayena patrena satyasyapihitam mukham |
tat tvam pusannapavrnu satyadharmaya drstaye

Face covered with a POT or VESSEL appears, to me atleast, to be quite Unlikely.

That is my somewhat MY less advanced understanding.

Yes, what you say of this word mukha मुख the face (& also the mouth) is accurate.
Yet the śloka says the 'face' (mukha) of Truth or satya is covered (apihita) , as it is pointed out in the śloka you were kind enough to provide.

Your answer appears in this word:
satya + sya + apihitam

• satya सत्य - true, real; whene used in the femine gender it is speaking the truth , sincerity , veracity; it is a noun of viṣṇu ; also associated with rāmacandra
• apihita अपिहित - covered, shut , concealed
• sya = sa and we can leave this for another time.

I hope this assists you in your understanding.

praṇām

[devotee]

Namaste Yajvan ji,

This thread has been highly satisfying ! Your explanation of "Hiranmayena patrena" is complete & there is nothing left to add, imho.

Your explanation to "Satyasyapihitam mukham" is accurate. Satyasya = of Satya, apihitam = hidden & mukham = face ====> the hidden face of Satya/Truth.

OM

[chandu_69]

Namaste Yajvan,

Originally Posted by yajvan

Yes, what you say of this word mukha मुख the face (& also the mouth) is accurate.
Yet the śloka says the 'face' (mukha) of Truth or satya is covered (apihita) , as it is pointed out in the śloka you were kind enough to provide.

Your answer appears in this word:
satya + sya + apihitam

• satya सत्य - true, real; whene used in the femine gender it is speaking the truth , sincerity , veracity; it is a noun of viṣṇu ; also associated with rāmacandra
• apihita अपिहित - covered, shut , concealed
• sya = sa and we can leave this for another time.

I hope this assists you in your understanding.

praṇām

Can you point out the usage of apihitam अपिहित(am)

Is it Apihitam or just apihita ?.For some reason i am unable to locate the exact word Apihitam in dictionary.

Also would appredciate if the word apavrnu can be defined

Also could you please explain Verse 4 anejadekam manaso javiyo nainaddeva apnuvanpurvamarsat |
taddhavato'nyanatyeti tisthattasminnapo matarisva dadhati 4

To whom matarisva is dedicating to?.

[devotee]

Namaste Snip,

I hope Yajvanji doesn't mind our discussing other verses here as, imho, all the verses are interlinked & we should see the Upanishad in its entirety to understand the meaning correctly.

I shall quote the Verse 2 here again for ready reference :

Kurvanneveha karmANi jIjivisheta shatam samAh l
Evam tvayi nanyathetosti na karma lipyate nare ll

Here we are being reminded that it is our desires which must be counter-acted by performing karma (righteous deeds). It is a desire to live in this world for one hundred years. So in order to continue as we are, we are being reminded that there is no other way to live with this desire for longevity than to continue on the path of karma.

I see this verse a little differently. "JIjivisheta" ( JIjivishA = desire to live) can also be interpreted as, "One/You should desire to live" i.e. Rishi tells us to have desire to live for 100 years or "fully" i.e. 100 %. So, imo, the emphasis has been given to the importance of living this life fully & for that there is a need to engage in action. I think Yajvanji's explanation of "100" deserves special attention here.

When this living becomes important then it also becomes important to learn the "knowledge" (this knowledge is sometimes termed as Avidya as it engages us in this world, refer verses 9-10-11 wherein the knowledge of Avidya is referred to) required for living in this world "fully". However, the action must be such that it doesn't involve us ... "na karma lipyate nare". That is why though this verse doesn't use the term "skilful action" but it implies that because only action done skilfully, as has been instructed by Lord Krishna in Bhagwad Gita, doesn't involve us.

OM