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Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

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Old 05 May 2009, 01:23 PM
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Thumbs Up Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

For the past 7 months, I have seen myself as a Vaishnava, believing that Lord Krishna is the Supreme Lord. However, I have recently found myself drawn back towards Saivism, or mainly the worship of Lord Ganesha.

As a Vaishnava, I read a lot of info on how Lord Krishna was the Supreme and how the other devas were His subordinates. There are a lot of Scriptural quotes to "show" that Lord Krishna/Vishnu is the Supreme Lord. How do Saivites explain these Scripture verses?

Evidence for Lord Krishna's Supremacy

Shruti
Rig Veda 1:22:20 "The princes evermore behold that loftiest place where Viṣṇu is,Laid as it were an eye in heaven."

Rig Veda 10:82:6 "The waters verily first retained the embryo in which all the gods were aggregated, single deposited on the navel of the unborn (creator), in which all beings abide. The reference to the navel of the unborn is an indication of reference to Vishnu."

Katha Upanishad 1:3:9 "A man who has discrimination for his charioteer and holds the reins of the mind firmly, reaches the end of the road; and that is the supreme position of Vishnu."

"Agni is the lowest and Vishnu is the highest among devas. All other gods occupy positions that are in between." (Aitareya Brahmana 1.1.1)

Vishnu is the best of all gods. Brahma and the rest are dependent onHim. Whatever I [Lord Krsna] state is the truth.( 3.28.62-63 Garuda Purana)

Maha Upanisad: I-1-4. Then we shall expound the Mahopanishad. They say Narayana was alone. There were not Brahma, Shiva, Waters, Fire and Soma, Heaven and Earth, Stars, Sun and Moon. He could not be happy

Narayana Upanisad: Narayana desired to create people. Because of this thought, Soul (prana) rose from him. Mind and all body parts, sky, air, light, water and the earth which can carry all these created beings took their form. From Narayana, Brahma was born. From Narayana, Rudra (Shiva) was born. From Narayana, Indra was born .From Narayana those people who rule these human beings were born. From Narayana, the twelve suns, eleven Rudras, Eight Vasus and all those meters (for writing) were born. All these function because of Narayana. All these end in Narayana. Thus is read, the Upanishads of Rig Veda.

tam isvaranam paramam mahesvaramtam daivatanam paramam ca daivatampatim patinam paramam parastadvidama devam bhuvanesam idyam

"You are the Lord of all other controllers such as Brahma and Siva. You are the Lord of all the devatas such as Indra. You are the Lord of all the prajapatis. You are superior to the supreme. We know you as the ultimate object of all prayers and eulogies; the Supreme Personality who is keen on performing wonderful pastimes" (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.7)

These quotes are all from the Upanishads, which are part of the Vedas. Shruti is the only authority in a debate, so these are references from the Shruti.

Smriti:
The Bhagavad Gita (all of it)
The Brahma-Samhita (all of it that is available to us today).

The Vaishnavas also claim the Bhagavad-Gita to be evidence for Lord Krishna's supremacy - 10:2 for example "I am the source of the Devas". They claim that it is the best because it was spoken directly by the Lord Himself. Does anyone have a good Saivite explanation of the Bhagavad-Gita?

Vaishnavas also try to claim that the Srimad-Bhagavatam is better than the Vedas in this age as that is its intention. They present the following evidence:
http://www.gosai.com/dvaita/madhvaca...hagavatam.html

Evidence of Shiva's Supremacy

The Shiva Purana
The Shiva Gita from the Padma Purana
The following verses from the Srimad-Bhagavatam (emphasis mine):

Lord Brahmā said: My dear Lord Śiva, I know that you are the controller of the entire material manifestation, the combination father and mother of the cosmic manifestation, and the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation as well. I know you in that way.

SB 4.6.43: My dear lord, you create this cosmic manifestation, maintain it, and annihilate it by expansion of your personality, exactly as a spider creates, maintains and winds up its web.

SB 4.6.44: My dear lord, Your Lordship has introduced the system of sacrifices through the agency of Dakṣa, and thus one may derive the benefits of religious activities and economic development. Under your regulative principles, the institution of the four varṇas and āśramas is respected. The brāhmaṇas therefore vow to follow this system strictly.

SB 4.6.45: O most auspicious lord, you have ordained the heavenly planets, the spiritual Vaikuṇṭha planets and the impersonal Brahman sphere as the respective destinations of the performers of auspicious activities. Similarly, for others, who are miscreants, you have destined different kinds of hells which are horrible and ghastly. Yet sometimes it is found that their destinations are just the opposite. It is very difficult to ascertain the cause of this.

SB 4.6.46: My dear Lord, devotees who have fully dedicated their lives unto your lotus feet certainly observe your presence as Paramātmā in each and every being, and as such they do not differentiate between one living being and another. Such persons treat all living entities equally. They never become overwhelmed by anger like animals, who can see nothing without differentiation.
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Old 05 May 2009, 04:45 PM
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Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

Neither. Your inner argument is a microcosm of the outer argument that continues hither thither in the realm of intellect up and down round and round in discussion places like this. I don't envy you, and this flip flop. Maybe a pilgrimage to Chidambaram, then Tirupati. Immediately one argues: "But to which shrine should I reserve the specialness of going first .. or last to?"

I think my point is thus: It'll never be resolved until sufficient non-intellectual experience makes it blatantly obvious - for you.

Good luck.

Aum Namasivaya
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Old 05 May 2009, 08:07 PM
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Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

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Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
Neither. Your inner argument is a microcosm of the outer argument that continues hither thither in the realm of intellect up and down round and round in discussion places like this. I don't envy you, and this flip flop. Maybe a pilgrimage to Chidambaram, then Tirupati. Immediately one argues: "But to which shrine should I reserve the specialness of going first .. or last to?"

I think my point is thus: It'll never be resolved until sufficient non-intellectual experience makes it blatantly obvious - for you.

Good luck.

Aum Namasivaya
So from your post I am to understand that both of them are supreme, as they are just different faces or different forms of God?
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Old 05 May 2009, 08:47 PM
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Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

Not just both are supreme.. its the same God. Remember, Hinduism is monotheistic at the deeper levels. But I reiterate.. whatever works for you..
Aum Namasivaya
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Old 05 May 2009, 08:54 PM
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Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

why you use word God ? are this word from Shastra ?
why not use Shiva or Narayana or Krishna ?

so many scriptures said this name is higest and that name is lower, in this world not only Shiva and Narayana name have doubt...

in Devi Baghavantam, Brahma, Shiva and Vishnu is create by Devi Mata

in Tara praises said Brahma, Indra etc bow to Tara Baghavati with Their crown

So who is highest ? Brahma, Vishnu, Siva , Shakti, Buddha, Jesus , Allah etc ??

we need to think again why peoples need religion ? why Rshis teaching the Dharma ?

is for get Shanti in beings mind, to destroy rakshasa in our mind, to attain supreme peace , and not to dispute the word or the name.

so, if we remember this, we will understand what is higest and what is lowest , even the theory of high and low Deity will not appear in our mind.

the depressed and confused about who is higest and lower is because we not touch God Heart.

one product of attachment in who is higest and lowest is religion violence !

please think deeply, even someone have who is high and low Deitys, are they truly life in God ? or only make the name of Shiva or name of Krishna become her / his other EGO name.
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OM. VAJRA. VISHNUYA. SVAHA
OM. VAJRA. GARUDA. CALE CALE. HUM PHAT


OM. AMOGHA VAIROCANA. MAHA-MUDRA. MANI PADMA JVALA PRAVARTTAYA. HUM

Om Saha Nau-Avatu |
Saha Nau Bhunaktu |
Saha Viiryam Karava-Avahai |
Tejasvi Nau-Adhii-Tam-Astu Maa Vidviss-Aavahai |
Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih ||

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Old 06 May 2009, 01:24 AM
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Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

It seems to me that the scriptures have built in mechanism to draw out our instinctive fellings/beliefs/acts and push the mind to purer and purer states. It is the Child within which raises and seeks such questions to get satisfaction and feeling of strength. But what happens is just the reverse.

Seeking support in imaginary supremacy, the mind becomes weaker and weaker, until the truth of shiva - the beneficial atman and vishnu -- the same atman which is nowhere absent, being the same is known.

Pranam to all.
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Old 06 May 2009, 03:39 PM
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Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

Who would win in a fight, a minotaur with a battle axe, or a centaur with a crossbow?
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Old 07 May 2009, 12:07 AM
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Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

Om Mahamahesvaraye Svaha Om Narayanaya Svaha

i understand, maybe some people think he/she need to know what form God use in first of creation. Or what form the Supreme God.

Let's we think

every form in shastra and painting or sclupture no one can prefectly describe God !

all is original
when you think God is like Mother when create us or in this universe, so God will appear in Mother form !

so what form ? is form or formless ??

Arya Avalokitesvara (Manifestasion of Universe compassion, heart of Mahesvara and Narayana and all Buddhas) said :

"Iha Sariputra, rupam sunyatam, sunyata iva rupam rupa na vrtta sunyata, sunyataya na vrtta sa-rupam
yad rupam sa-sunyata ya sunyata sa-rupam"

form is formless , formless is form, please think deeply

maybe some peoples said : "Krishna" or "Christ" is original form.

ok , can someone describe to me about Krishna or Christ form ???

even from shastra, if we read in Shsatra about Krishna form, we will have different vizualization in our mind !!! no one is same ! think it!

are Krishna is like painting from AAA or like painting form BBB ???
or like this sclupture ? that sclupture ?
or like vizualisation in mind of this Guru and that Guru ?

can one describe perfectly the taste of Mango ???

even one wordly colour , two peoples will have different description.
and what about GREAT GOD ?

so what the important ? debating the form or name from God ?
you will use your limited life time to debating form and name of God ?

oh i cant imagine
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OM. VAJRA. VISHNUYA. SVAHA
OM. VAJRA. GARUDA. CALE CALE. HUM PHAT


OM. AMOGHA VAIROCANA. MAHA-MUDRA. MANI PADMA JVALA PRAVARTTAYA. HUM

Om Saha Nau-Avatu |
Saha Nau Bhunaktu |
Saha Viiryam Karava-Avahai |
Tejasvi Nau-Adhii-Tam-Astu Maa Vidviss-Aavahai |
Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih ||

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Old 10 May 2009, 03:09 AM
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Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

Eko brahma dwativo nasti [ parmatma is one and only one , above all say brahma ,vishnu and mahesh ] He is mahavishnu see the vedmantra...
pra thadwochretmitam nu vidwahgandharvo dham vibhmratam guha sat . Treen padan nihita guhasya yastani ved sah pitu pitasat.
He is only to be prayed , as SAKAR or NIRAKAR one
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Old 11 May 2009, 11:34 PM
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Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

I sometimes think of Krsna as a voice for parabrahman, that he is able to do this, his unique ability is accessing originality.

So I don't think it's a matter of Krsna or Siva, in fact it's just looking inside and finding out the truth that will answer your question.

Both are truly good - but you see here..if we are speaking of totality, is there even a two to speak of? No. Siva and Krsna is an illusion because it is separate...so think in one-ness (not in some silly new age term either) but as say, a Pythagorean monad state....always works for me.

Krsna and Siva are both wonderful facets of that totality, splendid and opulent - overwhelming - how much more then, Supreme Absolute taken at once? Goodness.
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