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How to fight Casteism?

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  #11  
Old 29 September 2008, 05:45 PM
Eastern Mind Eastern Mind is offline
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Re: How to fight Casteism?

Namaste, Vannakkam all.. its been a long time since I posted. Regarding the fight against casteism, it seems to me that these types of fights are firstly, inner... you have to really change yourself first, easier said than done.. butif you recognise it in yourself you have an excellent start. Others.. well, the subconscious mind is a total of the conscious mind experiences, and the older we are, the less likely we are to change. One's experiences form the subconscious. A clear example is the Sri lankan Tamil who truly believes that the Buddhists are our enemies, and the Christians our friends. Why? Because of the Sinhala/Buddhist vs Tamil conflict thats been going on for a very long time. Outside of Sri lanka, most Hindus and Buddhists see themselves as more or less eastern brothers with similar paths, whilst the Christians/Moslems/Jews are very different. So caste will remain until the individual evolves spiritually enough to see God flowing through all mankind, regardless of race, occupation etc. Even in the west a closer look at our class system and its rigidness is revealed fairly quickly. (Truckers don't (can't?)wear suits; doctors and lawyers don't eat at truck stops.) (No soup for you!) Sorry to ramble..just another perspective.. For the record, officiallially I don't believe in caste, yet my mind still jumps to erroneous conclusions about a particular person of a particular race/class. Aum Namasivaya.
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  #12  
Old 29 September 2008, 10:14 PM
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Re: How to fight Casteism?

Namaste all,

This is a very important issue to be taken seriously by all Hindus. I thank "reflections" for starting this thread.

We Hindus believe in equality of all. Then why discriminate against our own Hindu brethren in the name of caste ? If I cannot bow before the sanitary cleaner just because he was born in a so called lower caste, then all our talks of "Tat tvam asi" is hollow & hippocracy.

When I was young, I had a friend who was a "chamaar" by caste but was the topper of our class. Once my friends saw me sharing food with him & told my mother of my "sin". My mother started scolding me but I simply told her, " Ma, I cannot fight with you. But just think : if you were born in that caste & you were treated like we treat them, how would you have felt ? As I cannot tolerate discrimination against myself, I cannot discriminate against anyone." I was always considered a rebellion in my family for my such thoughts.

Lord Krishna's message is very clear when he says, " Chaturvarnayam maya shrishtam guna-karma vibhagshah". The division is based on "guna & karma" & not on birth ... please note. In this world, there are hardly a few Brahmins. Many so called brahmins whom I know are in fact Shudras & I know a few so called Shudras who are Kshatriya or Vaishya.

This burning issue has been neglected by our torch-bearers of Hinduism & we are paying a very heavy price for that. The politicians today would not have been successful in dividing us in the name of caste if we would have tackled this menace ourselves. This perverted reservation policy where a brahmin who is not able to earn even a thousand rupees in a month is considered a "forward" & a person of a lower caste earning even Rs. 15000/- per month (which is now being considered to be raised to Rs. 40,000/- a month) is considered a backward. This is the reason there are mass-conversion from Hinduism to Christianity, Buddhism & even Islam. What these religions offer them ? They offer them equality which is the birth-right of every human being. This is the reason incompetent, corrupt criminal people are becoming law-makers in Indian polity. This is the reason demand of dowry has risen so much (because when you limit marriages within only to a particular caste, the available options reduce drastically & many people chase same bridegroom) that marriages are not taking place on equal footing of quality & samaskars.

How long shall we remain sleeping allowing all these to happen ?

What can be done ? I have some suggestions :

a) All the great spiritual souls of Hindu religions should form a forum which shall realise the gravity of the situation. They must realise the urgency of having a strategy to wipe out this menace for once & all.
b) Some great Hindu soul with a backing powerful organistaion can start asking for "Caste Daan" on the lines of "Bhoomi Daan" or "Anna Daan" etc. The people making "Caste Daan" should call themselves only Hindu witout any reference to thier caste. They should not use any surname or title which shows their caste. They can have uniform surnames, as "Arya" or "Bharati" or surnames related with village names etc.
c) People should make a vow that they would consider only quality & samskar of the groom & the bride-groom in arranging marriages.

etc.
etc.
---------

I sometimes dream seeing some great spiritual leader taking up this torch of Truth to eliminate this darkness which has eclipsed Hindu society. Will my dream be ever fulfilled ? God only knows.

Who is higher & who is lower ? I bow to even my dog for the divinity within it.

OM
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  #13  
Old 29 September 2008, 10:32 PM
saidevo saidevo is offline
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Re: How to fight Casteism?

Namaste reflections.

Let me first quote from the teachings of my mAnasIka gurus Kanchi Paramacharya and Swami Sathya Sai Baba, before I venture to offer my own impression on the subjects of varNa chosen by birth and if a qualified man from the other varNas can learn and practice the Vedas. It is not necessary that you or any other person concur with the teachings (though I believe them, so no point in finding fault with me), but they are there as sound warnings.

As you are perhaps aware, Kanchi Paramacharya belonged to a 'vaidIka' (Vedic) brahmin family in his 'pUrvAshrama' (earlier stage of life), but once he became a 'sannyAsi' and a Jagadguru of a Sankaracharya MaTham, he was beyond his varNa, yet he lived his life of 'bhakti' and 'jnAna', strictly on the 'sannyAsa dharma' laid down by Adi Sankara, proving that a sage of his stature who was very close to the people could follow the dharma prescribed by the Shastras, every moment of his life.

Thus he believed and taught the Hindu Dharma as ordained by the Vedas and other scriptures, and opined that the varNa system is most suitable for India at all times and that a person's varNa is decided by his birth. The following are some of his teachings:

Quote:
When a man thinks of abandoning his dharma - the duties allotted to him by birth - you must persuade him not to do so and impress upon him that he must remain loyal to his dharma since it serves not only him individually but all others.

Quoting Gandhiji: "Gandhiji has written an essay entitled, "My Varnasrama Dharma". In it he says:"Varnasrama is a system that has happened on its own. It is natural and inherent in a man's birth. It is a natural law that Hinduism has systematised into a science. This system makes a fourfold division of labour and lays down the duties of each section but not its rights. ... I keep fighting against untouchability because I consider it an evil but I support varnasrama as healthy for society and believe that it is not the product of a narrow mind. This arrangement gives the labourer the same status as it does a great thinker". Gandhiji supported varnasrama with greater ardour than sanatanists.

The principle behind this arrangement is that a man must do the work handed down to him from his forefathers - whatever such work be - with the conviction that it has been ordained by Isvara and that it is for the good of the world. The work he does in this spirit itself becomes a means of his inward advancement.
Swami Sathya Sai Baba was born in the kShatriya varNa. Though he teaches that a mantra like the Gayatri Mantra is for the entire humanity, he strongly encourages only brahmins to study and practice the Vedas. Some of his teachings:

Quote:
Parashurama did not want to rule over these 21 kingdoms. He gifted them away
to the sage Kashyapa who in turn again handed these over to 21 deserving
sons of these Kshatriya kings. He knew that Brahmanas are an important
section of this society. But they can not thrive unless they are protected
by Kshatriyas and fed by the Vaishyas. In the Varna system, every varna has
its importance and role to play. [Sai Bala Newsletter](http://saibabalinks.org/nwsl/saibala/2003/19.htm)

The varnas relate to the physical aspect of man; they cannot affect the spiritual aspect at all. ... Of course, "physical" includes the intellect, the mind, the chiththa, the antha karana, etc. Unless these are trained and regulated, the Atma Dharma cannot be understood.
[source:Prashanti Vahini, p46.]

The Atma is Sath, Chith and Ananda; those are its nature, if somehow it has to be indicated. This can be realised only by purifying the heart, mind and intellect of man. Persons who have that purity, whatever their varna or ashrama, can attain moksha.
[source:Prashanti Vahini, p46.]

Rama killed Shambuka belonging to Shudra Varna, not because he was a Shudra,
nor for his aspirations to be a Brahmana by practising penance. Shambuka
like Trishanku, past Ikshwaku king in the same line as Rama himself, was
practising penance by, hanging from a branch of a tree with his feet up and
head down. His purpose in following this path of severe austerities was to
obtain heavenly abode with the same body. For this very purpose
Trishanku was cursed to be a Chandala by the sage Vasishtha. This act was
setting a vry bad example before the posterity. It was an anti-social act,
and the punishment for it was death. Rama, therefore, on discovering him
instantly beheaded him. (http://www.saibabalinks.org/newslett...la_2003_20.htm)

From 'Prasnottara Vahini':
http://www.saibaba.ws/vahini/prasnot...ravahini12.htm

Q. Swami, you say that one has to do some things; that one should not do certain other things. How are we to know which is which? What is the authority?
A. The Sastras are the authority. The Manusmrithi itself declares, for example, that Varnas and Asramas are only for physical purification and that they do not affect the gaining or losing of the Highest.

Q. If that is so, why all this bother of Varna and Asrama, and the rules and regulations binding them?
A. Ah, they are required until you become free from attachment or Raga. Until then and for the sake of that, the regulations, limits and rules have to be obeyed to the very letter. The medicine has to be taken, so long as the illness persists. Each type of illness has a special medicine for cure, is it not? And a different course of diet and a special regimen. After one has got rid of the illness, one can partake of a feast with the rest. Without accepting this, if the well and the ill both demand the same feast, it will lead to calamitous consequences. The Varnas and the Asramas are as medicine prescribed for those who suffer from this Bhavaroga, the ills of worldliness and worldly attachment. Raga (attachment) is the roga (illness) and roga can disappear only by regimen, strictly observed. Unless you get well you cannot be liberated. This is the true meaning of Vedantha; he who knows this, whatever his Asrama, attains Mukthi.
As to my own personal opinion and impressions on the issue:

• Although I subscribe to the teachings of the gurus I mentioned above, I appreciate the debate whether varNa is to be based on birth and whether other castes may learn and practice the Vedas.

• At the same time, I think, the issue should be settled by our Hindu religious leaders, arriving at a consensus among themselves, and not by the politicians, the government, the courts or the public. Matters relating to the application and practice of religion are only solved by the religious gurus in other religions, so why should be different in Hinduism?

• One thing should be clearly understood: as I have explained in my above posts, even among Brahmins, only a few take to the rigours of the study and practice of the Vedas, where the correct pronunciation and recitation that causes the required vibrations is a must. Therefore, while anyone can know/read/study/listen to/research the Vedas, reciting them in Hindu religious ceremonies is best left to the traditional brahmins.

• Irrespective of the varNa/caste we, the faithful Hindus belong to, we must identify and protest the vested forces of politicians, non-Hindus, non-faithful-Hindus, historians with a communist leaning and so on from exploiting these issues and dividing us for their own profit.

Here are some references I came by on the subject of castes and varNas:

A peep into the past to know whether castes existed in Tamilnadu
http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.c...er-castes.html

Varna Ashram and Hindu Scriptures
http://www.geocities.com/satyawaadi/caste_2.pdf

From Race to Caste to Ethnicity
http://coursesite.cl.uh.edu/hsh/redd...of%20Caste.pdf
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  #14  
Old 30 September 2008, 05:03 AM
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Re: How to fight Casteism?

Namaste,
Saidevo, I am thankful for your inputs with references from different scholars and religious leader. So, this still remains a debated issue. People like Dayananda Saraswati thought differently.

So, if Varna is birth based, what Varna or caste should be assigned to new converts of Hinduism?

Just to make clear, I rever varnashram dhrama. It makes life so much focused. I am just confused on how to decide varna.

Jai Shri Krishna.
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Old 30 September 2008, 09:29 AM
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Re: How to fight Casteism?

Namaste reflections.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reflections View Post
I am thankful for your inputs with references from different scholars and religious leader. So, this still remains a debated issue. People like Dayananda Saraswati thought differently.

So, if Varna is birth based, what Varna or caste should be assigned to new converts of Hinduism?

Just to make clear, I rever varnashram dhrama. It makes life so much focused. I am just confused on how to decide varna.
1. Yes, it still remains a debated--and an emotional--issue, with differences of opinion between even the Hindu DharmAcharyas. Yet, those differences are not acrimonious, and they lend variety and color to our great religion. In fact, I think some religious institutions ARE imparting vedic education to non-brahmins.

2. I think the new converts to Hinduism, who were not previously Hindus, would fall under the fifth varNa 'sAmAnya' which is applicable only for the Kali Yuga. (Check http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3400). Those who were previously Hindus, would naturally belong to their earlier varNas and castes.

3. I am glad you rever varnAshrama dharma and understand that it makes life focussed, besides regulating the wealth and money-power of individual persons, mainly by exhorting the affluent to support the needy. The class system by profession is there in all societies in the world, not just in India.

4. If you think about it, in India, the number of Hindu religious institutions headed by sages who belonged to one of the other three varNas in their pre-sannyAsic stage of life, is far more than the number of institutions headed by sages who were brahmins in their 'pUrvAshrama'. Hundreds of devotees and pandits who belong to these institutions are worldy and vedic brahmins. Why haven't these institutions started their own Vedic schools and teach Vedas to non-Brahmins? I think this is because they respect the varNa dharma and the precepts of our Dharma Shastras, so there is no point in blaming that the Veda PAThashAlas run by brahmins do not admin non-brahmins and teach Vedas to them.

5. As I have outlined earlier, study and practice of the Vedas is a highly professional area. Only the most spiritual among the brahmins take to it and become Vedic pandits, undergoing the rigours of the courses spread over many years. A Vedic Pandit also studies and excels in almost all the Srutis, Smritis and the Sanskrit Secular Literature: Vedas, Vedangas, Upa-Vedas, Tattvas, Jyotisha, Puranas, Itihasas and even Kavyas and Natakas. You might understand what sort of foundation and expertise it all requires in the divine language of Sanskrit. Besides these people and their families lead a life strictly according to the scriptures.

In fact some schools such as the Ahobilam Matha school in Chennai teach Sanskrit to everyone who seeks it, and even Muslims join the classes the excel in the subject. If the non-brahmins are really serious about learning and practicing the Vedas let them show their genuine--not rhetoric--interest by example, live a sattvic life that is meat-and-wine-free, acquire skills in Sanskrit, exhort the affluents and philanthropists to set up Vedic schools for them, study there, excel and become a complimenting--not competing--force to the brahmin Vedic pandits whose number is dwindling day by day, without allowing the politicians, caste leaders, western religious missionaries and other vested interests to interfere in this area. If such a situation develops then all of us might perhaps appreciate and assimilate it.

I would for now only reiterate that while anyone can know/read/study/listen to/research the Vedas, reciting them in Hindu religious ceremonies is best left to the traditional brahmins.
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Old 30 September 2008, 09:37 AM
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Re: How to fight Casteism?

My take on this:

History shows that caste system has failed. If we say it's failed because the system itself has some inherent flaws, then we must discard it completely.

OTOH, if one says the system is good but people have exploited it, then what's the guarantee that people won't continue exploiting it for all time?

So in either case, the system has to be abandoned.
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Old 30 September 2008, 10:34 AM
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Re: How to fight Casteism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite Regress View Post
My take on this:

History shows that caste system has failed. If we say it's failed because the system itself has some inherent flaws, then we must discard it completely.

OTOH, if one says the system is good but people have exploited it, then what's the guarantee that people won't continue exploiting it for all time?

So in either case, the system has to be abandoned.
Namaste Infinite Regress,
May your at stay of Hindu dharma forums be beneficial.

My view may contoversial, in my view: Varna is by aptitude of people. You can do away with formal caste system but Varna will always remain there. In every society,people can be classified as intellectuals or brave and strong or entrepreneurs or labourers. You have 5 fingers, you nourish them all and protect them all. But, each has its own function. Pinky can not simply do thumb's work.

Every system has been exploited wrongly by humans. We don't throw the systems. Do we? Sometimes Democracy is exploted by dictators. Do we abandon democracy? Banks do go through financial crisis. Do we stop investing completely?

Yes, we do need to be critical, introspective, find faults and correct those.

People on HDF may debate whether the Varna is birth based or aptitude based. However, you will not find anyone denying basic rights (Education, progress) to lower castes or advocating untouchability.
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Old 30 September 2008, 10:43 AM
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Re: How to fight Casteism?

Namaste Infinite Regress.

Such views as you have expressed are seemingly clever, but actually extreme. Using the same logic, you can say:

• History shows that science and scientific research have failed consistently; their inventions contribute more to the destruction of humanity than material progress.

• History shows that allopathy medicine does not go to the root of diseases, only cures the symptoms, which nevertheless recur. The only thing it is good at is surgery but even in this area, ancient Hindus had better expertise.

• History shows that the systems of political and administrative government, even democracy, breed only corruption and create greedy monsters in the name of political leaders.

• "OTOH, if one says the system is good but people have exploited it, then what's the guarantee that people won't continue exploiting it for all time?"

So in either case, these systems have to be abandoned.

In any system which is human made, there is bound to be progress and regress, indicating flaws in the system. A wise course of action is to minimize the flaws and continue with the system.
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Old 30 September 2008, 11:07 AM
Infinite Regress Infinite Regress is offline
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Re: How to fight Casteism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
Namaste Infinite Regress.

Such views as you have expressed are seemingly clever, but actually extreme. Using the same logic, you can say:

History shows that science and scientific research have failed consistently; their inventions contribute more to the destruction of humanity than material progress.

History shows that allopathy medicine does not go to the root of diseases, only cures the symptoms, which nevertheless recur. The only thing it is good at is surgery but even in this area, ancient Hindus had better expertise.

History shows that the systems of political and administrative government, even democracy, breed only corruption and create greedy monsters in the name of political leaders.

"OTOH, if one says the system is good but people have exploited it, then what's the guarantee that people won't continue exploiting it for all time?"

So in either case, these systems have to be abandoned.

In any system which is human made, there is bound to be progress and regress, indicating flaws in the system. A wise course of action is to minimize the flaws and continue with the system.
Namaste. What you say isn't true because the mistakes you've mentioned (reg. science, medicine, democracy etc.) are often self-correcting. Which means, there's been a gradual evolution in these matters. Such changes have been totally absent in the case of caste system, which is why the comparison is quite unfair.
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Old 30 September 2008, 12:57 PM
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Re: How to fight Casteism?

Namaste IR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite Regress View Post
What you say isn't true because the mistakes you've mentioned (reg. science, medicine, democracy etc.) are often self-correcting. Which means, there's been a gradual evolution in these matters. Such changes have been totally absent in the case of caste system, which is why the comparison is quite unfair.
Yes, you're right: science, medicine and democracy started with flaws, self-corrected them, found a lot more flaws, self-corrected them, still found so many other flaws, and keeps self-correcting them, going on thus in an endless loop of trial and error.

The varNa system, on the other hand, was founded flawless because it was given to us by the Rishis who compiled the scriptures. During the times of monarchy after the advent of the Kali Yuga, the varNa system spawned the system of castes, and castes were based on one's avocation within the occupations defined in the varNas. Competition started within the avocations, for example, the various sects of farm workers, music artistes, etc., but they never crossed the borders of avocations because two avocations had nothing in common to compete, so they did not try to overrule or wipe out the other.

Even during the Muslim rule, these avocations existed in diversity but remained in unity within the folds of the varNa system and the dharma of Hinduism. It was during the British rule that the Sanskrit-based Hindu education was abandoned and the English education was forced down the throats of the Indian public. This created sedentary governmental jobs which were obtained only by the English education in the subjects of western science, arts and literature. With the introduction of industrialization and technology, these jobs--and the education that obtained them--became more and more specialized, and in today's scenario, have boiled down to just three streams: engineering, business management, medicine.

Industrialization wiped out the cottage industry, just like the monolithic multinational companies are wiping out the indigenous, small scale industries in all sectors. These were the exploitations that created the feeling of unsecurity and inequality among castes as everyone from each varNa and caste wanted to specialize in the three streams of education and earn the white collar jobs, though this would mean permanent enslavement to the corporate sector. Castes of the lower varNas, specially the Sudra, were not ready for this intellectual and brainy undertaking, so they started to feel at a disadvantage. Stupid and vile politicians took advantage of the situation in the setup of democracy, and started dividing the people on caste, creed and religion, spreading envy, hatred and enmity all around--all with an eye to rule the country and amass wealth even betraying national intersts.

It is this situation of exploitation that needs to be corrected. It can be done only by restoring the rule of the Hindu Dharma under the varNa system that advocates a simple life of self-reliance, in harmony with nature, avoiding all luxuries of technology and industrialization.
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