A.K.A. Osho

[TheOne]

I try not to judge anyone especially if they are a brother or sister in the Dharma. But I do feel that yes, Osho has some important messages, but at other times he had broke many laws and his followers had ruined peoples lives. I myself try to avoid the more controversial teachers and stick with the Holy texts and esteemed teachers.

[Eastern Mind]

Originally Posted by TheOne

I try not to judge anyone especially if they are a brother or sister in the Dharma. But I do feel that yes, Osho has some important messages, but at other times he had broke many laws and his followers had ruined peoples lives. I myself try to avoid the more controversial teachers and stick with the Holy texts and esteemed teachers.

Vannakkam TheOne: I think that's wisdom. I don't understand why any teacher has to comment on another teacher unless there is direct interference in some way. Its good to have a varied lot, as the students are a varied lot, each needing something slightly different. Of course its all quite subjective and personal. One person's 'esteemed' teacher is another's 'raving maniac'. I admit I like to watch the drama a bit without any personal involvement or comments. On occasion I've allowed myself to get dragged into it, and there was never any great outcomes from that.

Aum Namasivaya

[Sahasranama]

I think no guru should be above criticism. It's a very dangerous thing to elevate human beings to such a level where they are immune to criticism. Especially when they have such responsibilities as the spiritual leaders. Osho criticising the rest doesn't make him better, he himself has done a lot that needs to be criticised, but at least he is not afraid to speak his mind.

[sm78]

Originally Posted by Eastern Mind

I think that's wisdom. I don't understand why any teacher has to comment on another teacher unless there is direct interference in some way.

We are what we believe, no? Very few (in fact almost none) are intelligent and wise enough to form their own understanding just by observing the world and reading scriptures. Teachers and our Gurus are the integral to what we believe, no? Infact most of us see the world completely through the lens of the teachers and gurus we believe in?

Osho said these things in answer to questions asked to him. Is it not the duty of the guru (Osho, in this case) to challange wrong views and ignorance and thus challange the source of these wrong views and ignorance in his students? If we put Guru's beyond criticism and question, then we are not really brave enough to see them as Guru. Guru is the dispeller of darkness, its a tall order and high requirement. As shisyas we should question, test, prod our guru's. Similarly a true guru will question, challange and destroy wrong views of shishyas which include false gurus.

The western society is great in that respect. It allows free thought and critisim - particularly of those who enjoy prestige and power. It is absolutely necessary, without it, there is literally no way to preserve the light and prevent the darkness. Back in the days, India was same in this respect. We see so much philosophies, arguments and counter arguments, because nothing could go unchallanged. Challanging is the fundamental human faculty of intelligence, and when it is forcibly subdued, particularly for most important things as the Guru, we are basically insulting God and intelligence.

Only dark religions, based on false and imaginary concepts need to fear from criticism and take all measures to destroy criticism, by violence and intimidation. We should be careful, Hindus don't follow the same route.

You don't insult gurus to insult someone, you do so to destroy wrong notions. Osho was doing the same. If we listen to Osho unbiasedly, most of the time he is speaking most logically and hence most likely the truth. If we choose to throw away this logic and truth because you want to follow a false tradition of showring flase respect for certain individuals, are we actually and really respecting the original GURU? The individuals are just individuals, they become acting Guru at the command & wish of the inner Guru who is most important and the only eternel Guru. But we choose to deny him the respect and intead cling onto personalities.

[sm78]

Originally Posted by TheOne

he had broke many laws and his followers had ruined peoples lives.

How did he and his followers ruined other peoples lives? I am curious to know.

I know many lives are getting ruined everyday (literally through monetary donations, blowing up onself etc...even if we ignore the mental damage done) in paid Satsangs, paid mass shaktipats, fanatic preachings of hatred that goes inside churces and mosques etc.

Lamas, Guru's, Padris and Mullahs are continously exploiting people feeding on their already existing paranoia. Osho was the rare one who challanged the paranoia, existing beliefs and notions we carry like zombies. How is that ruining people?

Note, I am not a follower of Osho and don't believe much of his philosophy. It sounds good, but is not sound at the end. But I have no doubt about his approach. I am sure he could get at least few people to question themselves and thus start them on the path of self-discovery.

[sm78]

Originally Posted by Sahasranama

What is the 6th kala in shaktivad?

A better translation & 1 para defn than the one I had forwarded you.

The flag of Ganesha have been somewhat discussed. The perspicacious will be able to discover many more information from these traces of indications. Now, we devote ourselves to the dhyana of Surya to find out, to which endowments in us, this flag seeks us to attain? The supreme embodiment (ishvariya bhaba) of love (prema) in us can be termed as Surya. Surya[1] (the sun) is the light to shatter the darkness of ignorance in us. It is the shinning spirit (teja) to demolish the inertia in us. After experiencing thoughts of this stage, activists (karmin) conceive that a person is unjust for being ignorant. With impartment of proper education he will attain the self-restraint (sangyama) and divinity. The great men connected to this stage want to establish everything upon the foundation of education. They want to restrain everybody by means of teaching and preaching. They are in favour of the rule of love. They strive to awaken morality among the immoral by acute projection of their innocence and anguish for the immoral to the world, in particular, to the immoral. They are obsessed with divinity in man. Proper education and persuasion through reformer’s self-suffering could reform a person only if his evilness (asuric nature) is an outcome of ignorance. There are others, who adopt the asuric nature even after being fully knowledgeable. If somebody attempts to reform them with this power, they attempt to further their own interests using this weakness of the reformer.

[Eastern Mind]

Originally Posted by Sahasranama

I think no guru should be above criticism. It's a very dangerous thing to elevate human beings to such a level where they are immune to criticism. Especially when they have such responsibilities as the spiritual leaders. Osho criticising the rest doesn't make him better, he himself has done a lot that needs to be criticised, but at least he is not afraid to speak his mind.

Vannakkam: On an individual level I agree, but isn't it up to the said individual devotee or follower? I doubt that there are many really blind followers who went off to see some guru without first questioning their own actions. I'm no mind reader, after all, but it seems that way to me. Obviously they saw something that suited them, or they wouldn't have done it. Even false paths are great teachers in that they tell you what NOT to do. I guess an analogy could be political attack ads. I personally don't see the point. I think it's up to the individual seeker and no one else. What is the personal value of criticism, be it of another sampradaya, another guru? In many cases of parenting, for example, when a child is at his rebellious stage, guidance has exactly the opposite affect of what was intended. Any press is good press, as they say. So when a very critical article comes out in some newspaper, it piques the interest.

On a personal note, of course I have my more cherished teachers, books, etc., but that's my chosen or God given path. I don't need to share with anyone what I think. Its almost then the other side of the proselytising coin, and we all know what most of us think of that. Everyone in SD at least has to stick together in some way. I'm sure the Christians and Moslems love it when they see Hindus fighting amongst themselves.

Aum Namasivaya

[TheOne]

Originally Posted by sm78

How did he and his followers ruined other peoples lives? I am curious to know.

I know many lives are getting ruined everyday (literally through monetary donations, blowing up onself etc...even if we ignore the mental damage done) in paid Satsangs, paid mass shaktipats, fanatic preachings of hatred that goes inside churces and mosques etc.

Lamas, Guru's, Padris and Mullahs are continously exploiting people feeding on their already existing paranoia. Osho was the rare one who challanged the paranoia, existing beliefs and notions we carry like zombies. How is that ruining people?

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_Ra...oterror_attack
• He had violated numerous immigration procedures and lied on his visa and eventually deported from the U.S.
• During his residence in Rajneeshpuram Osho dictated three books under the influence of nitrous oxide administered to him by his private dentist Sheela later stated that Osho took sixty milligrams of Valium each day and was addicted to nitrous oxide.

[TheOne]

But like I said, I don't know all the circumstances involved and I cannot claim to know everything about his message and personal life. And yes, I do think a Guru is necessary for just about everyone, but I myself have a preference away from people in the limelight that have hundreds of other followers just because I don't see it as a true Guru - Disciple relationship

[Believer]

First of all, let me say that any time an Indian Guru/Acharya falls because of something that he did/said or his followers did/said, it is very painful, because it reflects negatively on the whole of Hinduism. With that in mind, it gives me no pleasure in pointing a finger at any one of them. Having been around for few decades longer than some of the other members, and having lived through the times of highs and lows of some of the recent Gurus, our knowledge base about their teachings/activities is deeper and wider through no special effort of ours. A lot could be said about them, both positive and negative, but that would only peel the scabs off the old wounds. And it would damage Hinduism. So, why not let the old departed souls rest? If you find something positive in what they said/wrote, absorb it, else move on!
-