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Thread: Start of the 'Atma'/Soul

  1. #61
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    Re: Start of the 'Atma'/Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by awaraarawa View Post
    I grew up understanding that each of us have a part of God which is our Atma that eventually joins up with Paramatma upon Moksha.

    A question that came from the kids that I could not clearly answer and would appreciate assistance on:

    Assuming the above is true, why did Atma separate from Paramatma only to work its way back to Paramatma via yoga.

    Alternately, what is the start/origin of the Atma? How does it get separated from the Paramatma?
    I would try to provide insight into this question from Gaudiya vaishnava point of view.

    We, living beings, are eternal atmas. Eternal means that atma has never been created in the past. We, living beings, we have always existed and we will always exist in the future.

    We lived together with God in the spiritual world called Vaikuntha. There is no explanation as to how exactly it happened, but we have somehow forgotten our relationship with God. We have forgotten that we need to serve God, and we have tried to imitate God, we have tried to become enjoyers separated from God. Then God has put us in this material world in which we can try to enjoy separate from God.
    So there is no an infinite number of lives that we spent in the material world. There are some sutras in the Vedanta Sutra about how karma has no beginning and about how the material universe has been constantly created and destroyed since infinite past.
    However this does not mean that a living being has always lived in the material world constantly being born and dying.
    There are statements in the scriptures that God is responsible for our conditioned existence in this material world as well as for our liberation. This means that we have started our conditioned material life because God has put us into this material world. However, God did not put us in this material world for no reason. God has put us in this material world because we wanted to enjoy independently of God. There is a discussion in the Vedanta philosophy about impartiality of God. So being impartial, God did not put us here because he wanted it so, but because we wanted to enjoy separate from God.

    Now, regarding beginningless karmas and universe.
    Some people think that beginningless karmas and universe are the explanation of our conditioned material life.
    They think that we spend unlimited lifetimes in the material world by creating karmas and have being subjected to unlimited repeated births and deaths.
    However, this view is not correct. Why?
    Because it would be partiality of God.
    How?
    There is a discussion in the Vedanta philosophy about impartiality of God. God created some people rich and some poor. Since God is impartial, He created some people rich and some poor because of their merits or karmas. Thus He stays impartial.
    Now, if we assume that God has kept us in the material world unlimited lifetimes, unlimited repeated births and deaths, this would mean that God is not impartial.
    How so?
    God keeps some living beings in Vaikuntha where there are no material miseries, and some living beings He keeps here in this miserable material world. If God does so for no reason he would not be impartial.
    Thus we can understand that theory about unlimited lifetimes in the material world is not correct.

    regards

  2. #62

    Re: Start of the 'Atma'/Soul

    Pranams.

    Actually, the above views appear to be ISKCON's views, rather than gauDIya vaiShNava views in general.

    The logic in vedAnta-sUtra regarding God's partiality/impartiality goes like this:

    pUrva-pakshin: We see that people everywhere are unequal. Therefore God must be partial and cruel
    vedAntin: No, because the people are unequal due to their different karmas.
    pUrva-pakshin: If they have different karmas, then it must be that they started off with different karmas, therefore God is partial and cruel in creating the jIvas with different karmas.
    vedAntin: No, because the jIvas never "started off" with karma. They have always been in samsAra, as in, without beginning.

    The point is very clear that material bondage is without beginning. Moreover, baladeva vidyAbhUShaNa, the vedAnta commentator for the gauDIya sampradAya, upholds this view in his govinda-bhAShya.

    The idea of being in Vaikuntha and then falling from that position is not a vedAntic belief, and as far as I can tell, is primarily only held by some newer sects like ISKCON. I can't help but notice that this view does have a subtly Christian flavor to it, which is probably why it is so popular in the West, as it resembles the Christian myth of the "fall from Eden."
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  3. #63
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    Re: Start of the 'Atma'/Soul

    Namaste philosoraptor

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    The point is very clear that material bondage is without beginning.
    No, it is not.
    Scriptures clearly say that material bondage is not beginningless!

    Here are a few examples from Śrīmad Bhāgavatam.
    Bhāgavatam 11.2.37 ( http://vedabase.net/sb/11/2/37/en ) :

    "When the living entity thus turns away from the Supreme Lord, he also forgets his own constitutional position as a servant of the Lord. This bewildering, fearful condition is effected by the potency for illusion, called māyā."

    The expression īśād apetasya clearly indicates that the jiva left the company of the Lord. Word apeta means "escaped, departed, gone, having retired from". Word asmṛtiḥ "forgetfulness" is there too.

    All this means that sometime in the past a jiva or living being was in the company of the Lord, knew Him, but has turned away from the Supreme Lord and forgot Him. When a jiva knew the Lord while living in the company of the Lord, there was no material bondage for this jiva.

    Similar verses can be found in Bhāgavatam canto 4, chapter 28.
    In Bhāgavatam 4.28.53 (http://vedabase.net/sb/4/28/53/en) the Lord in the form of some brāhmaṇa says to the jiva:

    "The brāhmaṇa continued: My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can't you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world."

    Here we have an expression "you gave up My company".

    Bhāgavatam 4.28.55 ( http://vedabase.net/sb/4/28/55/en ) :

    "My dear friend, you are now My very same friend. Since you left Me, you have become more and more materialistic, and not seeing Me, you have been traveling in different forms throughout this material world, which was created by some woman."

    Bhāgavatam 4.28.64 ( http://vedabase.net/sb/4/28/64/en ) :

    "In this way both swans live together in the heart. When the one swan is instructed by the other, he is situated in his constitutional position. This means he regains his original Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which was lost because of his material attraction."

    Here we have an expression "he regains his memory" and also "which was lost".
    Once in the past the Lord was known by the jiva who forgot Him.


    Now, regarding God's impartiality.

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor
    Moreover, baladeva vidyAbhUShaNa, the vedAnta commentator for the gauDIya sampradAya, upholds this view in his govinda-bhAShya.
    That's not true.
    He never said "They have always been in samsAra, as in, without beginning" although it may be true that he said / agreed with the statement of the sutra

    vedAntin: No, because the jIvas never "started off" with karma.
    I'll try to explain.
    Since Baladeva Vidyabhushana was acarya of the Gaudiya vaishnava sampradaya he had to know about these verses such as Bhāgavatam 11.2.37, etc the ones that I mentioned above.
    Statement by the Vedanta Sutra that jivas never "started off" with karma uses the term "karma" in the literal sense "actions, activities".
    Word karma tells us nothing about what kind of activities we are talking about. There are two types of activities. Material activities that bind us to the material existence and spiritual activities that relieve us of material existence. Material activities one performs without God consciousness. Spiritual activities that relieve us of material existence some people call bhakti yoga or "activities in Krishna consciousness".
    Vedanta Sutra just says that activities are beginningless. It doesn't say that material activities in unawareness of God are beginningless! Hence the conclusion: material bondage is not beginningless!

    If you think that either Baladeva Vidyabhushana or Vedanta Sutra wanted to say that material bondage is beginningless, that living beings spent unlimited lifetimes in repeated births and deaths, that would be contrary to two important principles:

    a) what has been expressed in the above verses from Bhāgavatam 11.2.37 etc.
    and also
    b) it would be contrary to the principle of God's impartiality. God keeps some living beings together with Him in happiness and bliss where there are no material miseries, and some living beings He keeps here in this miserable material world. Why he would do so? If God does so for no reason he would not be impartial. There is no justifiable reason for God to keep some living beings here in this miserable material world of repeated birth and death (saṃsāra) without beginning.

    I even can not imagine why it would be beginningless saṃsāra. This is complete nonsense.

    regards

  4. #64

    Re: Start of the 'Atma'/Soul

    Pranams brahma jijnasa,

    My posting was about vedAnta-sUtra, and specifically about baladeva vidyAbhUShaNa's commentary on the anAdi-karma sUtra.

    I can assure you that your views on baladeva on this issue are quite mistaken. His commentary makes it very clear that he considers bondage to be beginningless, quite in line with what madhva and rAmAnuja also believe. Please review the sUtras and his commentary. There are at least 2 translations available, one of Rai Bahadur Srisa Chandra Vasu and the other by an ISKCON devotee Kushakratha dasa.

    regards,
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  5. #65

    Re: Start of the 'Atma'/Soul

    With all due respect, to be consistent, shouldn't we leave interpretation of Gaudiya texts to Gaudiyas - such as Brahma Jijnansa?

    After all, much offense was taken when Ganesh quoted Azhwars, which was disagreeable to Shri-Vaishnavas on the forum and they opined that Ganesh should stay away from interpreting Shri Vaishnavas?

    Of course, the other option is, to not take offense at others and avoid telling them what not to do. This way, no one can be accused of double standards.
    http://lokayata.info
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  6. #66
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    Re: Start of the 'Atma'/Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by shiv.somashekhar View Post
    With all due respect, to be consistent, shouldn't we leave interpretation of Gaudiya texts to Gaudiyas - such as Brahma Jijnansa?

    After all, much offense was taken when Ganesh quoted Azhwars, which was disagreeable to Shri-Vaishnavas on the forum and they opined that Ganesh should stay away from interpreting Shri Vaishnavas?

    Of course, the other option is, to not take offense at others and avoid telling them what not to do. This way, no one can be accused of double standards.
    I have no problems if he wants to discuss.
    Maybe he'll finally learn something.

    regards

  7. #67
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    Re: Start of the 'Atma'/Soul

    Namaste
    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    Pranams brahma jijnasa,

    My posting was about vedAnta-sUtra, and specifically about baladeva vidyAbhUShaNa's commentary on the anAdi-karma sUtra.

    I can assure you that your views on baladeva on this issue are quite mistaken. His commentary makes it very clear that he considers bondage to be beginningless, quite in line with what madhva and rAmAnuja also believe. Please review the sUtras and his commentary. There are at least 2 translations available, one of Rai Bahadur Srisa Chandra Vasu and the other by an ISKCON devotee Kushakratha dasa.

    regards,
    Can you specify where Baladeva says something like "They have always been in samsAra, as in, without beginning"?

    regards

  8. #68

    Re: Start of the 'Atma'/Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa View Post
    Namaste


    Can you specify where Baladeva says something like "They have always been in samsAra, as in, without beginning"?

    regards
    It's in his commentary to the anAdi-karma sUtra. I assume you know where that is, since you were presuming to explain baladeva vidyAbhUShaNa's opinion on the subject. You have read baladeva's writings, have you not?
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  9. #69

    Re: Start of the 'Atma'/Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by shiv.somashekhar View Post
    With all due respect, to be consistent, shouldn't we leave interpretation of Gaudiya texts to Gaudiyas - such as Brahma Jijnansa?

    After all, much offense was taken when Ganesh quoted Azhwars, which was disagreeable to Shri-Vaishnavas on the forum and they opined that Ganesh should stay away from interpreting Shri Vaishnavas?

    Of course, the other option is, to not take offense at others and avoid telling them what not to do. This way, no one can be accused of double standards.
    I don't have any problem with anyone talking about anything. My problem is with those who misrepresent something to support their views, and then take offense, become defensive, and/or perpetrate the misrepresentation when more knowledgeable members give appropriate, evidence-based correction.

    I do believe it is important to tell the truth.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  10. #70
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    Re: Start of the 'Atma'/Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    It's in his commentary to the anAdi-karma sUtra. I assume you know where that is, since you were presuming to explain baladeva vidyAbhUShaNa's opinion on the subject. You have read baladeva's writings, have you not?
    I checked it out although I do not have a complete translation of the book.

    It is Vedanta sutra 2.1.35:
    na karmāvibhāgād iti cen nānāditvāt
    It does not mention that they have always been in samsAra, as in, without beginning.

    regards

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