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Thread: Women and Western clothes

  1. #51
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    Re: Women and Western clothes

    Namaste Believer ji,

    I want to acknoweldge that you are speaking to native Indians here and I am not one so feel free to ignore me. While I agree that it is kind of strange at first look that there might appear be some attack at a suggestion that Indians should take back some of their own cultural pride through dress. But if analyzed I think many have said that more cultural pride would be nice and the dress is beautiful. Not one person has argued against this. And respectfully, I kind of wonder at your own logic in defending his comments because once you look past the surface they really don't seem to be about cultural pride at all. I don't believe the negative reactions are about that, but on the actual point he is making - which while I would like to call it subtext is really not all that cleverly hidden at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Every flower must be allowed to bloom in its own way. Everyone should be allowed to exercise full freedom within the confines of the social norms. No one is denying that.
    I'm very sorry to disagree but it looks very much as if Yesudas himself is denying exactly that.
    To quote from the article in the OP, (emphasis mine):
    "Women should not trouble others by wearing jeans. When they put on jeans, men are tempted to look beyond that (jeans),” he said. “Women’s beauty lies in their modesty. They should not try to become like men. They should not force others* to do unnecessary things by wearing jeans...”
    I see no call to return pride back to culture here. This sounds like a guy is uncomfortable with his own libido and women getting 'uppity' and joining in society more actively, and is blaming women for it. He's a bit hot under the collar so everyone else should bow to his desire to "not be bothered" by others lest they somehow "force" him to do something. If only I could ask the same of every person who sometimes bothers me, and credibly blame them for my own actions to boot. But then I don't have such a public face with which to make such sweeping requests.

    Good Christians know that part of the point of Temptation is that it's a Test from God to overcome the Temptation. If he's such a good Christian, he should probably be working more on this than making comments asking society to take a step back into the middle ages for his own comfort and those like him. How very Christian of him. Next why not ask Women to cover their hair, since it's well known that the Angels can't control themselves when they see a Woman's hair. We certainly wouldn't want to start having Nephilim running around all over again, that wouldn't be good at all. Honestly, speaking as someone who has grown up within a Christian culture, in this quote he speaks more like a Muslim from a Sharia state.
    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Here is a meek Xitian, who opened his mouth... And you want to put down poor Yesu...
    I admit do not really know this man, though it's true he has an amazing singing voice, but any public figure who decides to use their Celebrity as a platform to speak on a social issue should expect a backlash from those that disagree, particularly on a hot-button issue. I'm going to go out on a limb and bet that he knew exactly what he was doing when he used his Name to launch this op-ed through a media interview, and he probably knew the publicity it would get him too - or his publicist did, because as they say, there's no such thing a 'bad' publicity.

    All this said, your point about reclaiming pride in the cultural heritage is sound - and I don't think that's at all what he was talking about. Perhaps you don't, but I see Indian people taking pride in their cultural heritage all the time, even when they aren't dressed in Sari or Shalwar. You don't need to wear it ever day to appreciate or take pride in it, and wearing it every day doesn't mean you apreciate or take pride in it either. Clothes do not make the person or the Culture. People do that themselves. Taking pride in Cultural History and Heritage doesn't mean people or society need to stay stuck in the past, that is stagnation. Restricting one group's freedoms because it makes another group uncomfortable is injustice.

    Ekam sums up my feeling on earlier comments perfectly, as does the student mentioned in the article. Bindu Krishna, from the same article sums up my feeling on Yesudas' statements perfectly as well (Not claiming I would always agree with him, but he's on point here):
    “His comments are not fit for a civilized society,” said Krishna
    That's it in a nutshell for me. Viraja ji did ask about final thoughts after all. I'm sure my comments will have detractors, either on point or on my making them at all, but that's it for me. I risk becoming a broken record...

    ~Pranam

    * Ok, what??? Who is trying to force who to do 'unnecessary things' here? Wow.
    ~~~~~
    What has Learning profited a man, if it has not led him to worship the good feet of Him who is pure knowledge itself?
    They alone dispel the mind's distress, who take refuge at the feet of the incomparable one.
    ~~Tirukural 2, 7

    Anbe Sivamayam, Satyame Parasivam

  2. #52
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    Re: Women and Western clothes

    Namaste Aanandini,

    I would never ignore you or anyone else in the forum. We may disagree, occasionally to the point of having uncompromising views, but at the end of the day we have to sit down around the table as one Hindu family. To that extent, I don't let my (over-inflated ) ego ignore people and keep me away from my Hindu family here.

    I hear you loud and clear, more than you would know. And I understand the American mindset. But there are several layers of sub-texts on anything said by an Indian in India. I beg you to accept that your interactions with Indians here or during your short visits there will never give you a complete picture of the array of mindsets from the broad spectrum, based on individual cultures/ethnicities/geographical areas/religious leanings. Add to that the unsophisticated way that average people there express themselves, as compared to how Americans do in their polished way; and one may miss a lot on the intent of the spoken words.

    So, I would endorse everything you say in the American context, but it is a different story when it comes to Indians living in India. Even Indians living in North America are not Indians any more. I am not what I was or would have grown to become, if I had stayed there all my life. The thinking process, the general outlook on life, different mutations of logic that one goes through, the hot button issues one gets sensitized to, the different kind of social environment; changes people every day in ever so imperceptible ways. Under those conditions, one has to go within very, very deep to search for the core of the self.

    Many times words come in the way of whatever you are trying to say. I am afraid I cannot do justice to whatever I am trying to express through words. So, we will leave it at that. But be rest assured that not a single woman in India would have given up wearing jeans because of whatever good old Yesudas said.

    Pranam.

  3. #53
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    Re: Women and Western clothes

    Namaste Believer ji,

    Your posts always give excellent points to reflect on, while also giving me a smile. Thank you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    ...as compared to how Americans do, [...express themselves...], in their polished way
    Ah yes, America, the country that has refined the art of detailed communication and entertainment through grunts, tsks and passing wind through various orifices. The epitome of polished eloquence and High Culture.

    ~Pranam
    ~~~~~
    What has Learning profited a man, if it has not led him to worship the good feet of Him who is pure knowledge itself?
    They alone dispel the mind's distress, who take refuge at the feet of the incomparable one.
    ~~Tirukural 2, 7

    Anbe Sivamayam, Satyame Parasivam

  4. #54

    Re: Women and Western clothes

    Quote Originally Posted by Aanandinii View Post
    Namaste ji,

    Oh my, but yes. I think someone mentioned earlier in this thread - could have been another though - this growing western fad of men wearing their pants down around their upper thighs with their boxers hanging out - or sometimes fake boxers. And they're getting lower as time goes on, a guy stood right in front of me waiting for subway doors to open the other day with them SO low he had to stand in an awkward position to keep them on. They all walk strangely too. I just face/palm so repeatedly when I see this that I should have a concussion.
    I just wonder why I haven't heard about pant saggers being victimized in subways, by having their pants pulled down around their ankles just as they board a subway. There's no catching that when they can't run. By the way, pant sagging came from prison because of the way clothes are made for the inmates, such that they are often too large and don't have belts on them (because inmates can escape by hanging themselves, and subconsciously knowing that westerners don't have a concept of reincarnation, come back to live another life, and people are none the wiser that their father's murderer walks in front of them every day in the grocery store 20 years later as an adolescent). So, they have to hitch their pants up frequently.

    What I don't get is the cultural appropriation of something that comes from a prison, an ignominious place to be...

    Praṇāma with a shrug.

  5. #55

    Re: Women and Western clothes

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    I, on the other hand do not want to get rid of all those buttons. When a person uses the Arabic 'f-word' and I request them to please not use it, and the next week they do it again, as if to mock me, I want to get agitated, and I never ever want to eliminate that as one of my hot buttons. But that is me.
    LOL. I can curse in my constructed language, and not a single person on Earth will understand what I have done or said.

  6. #56
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    Re: Women and Western clothes

    Namaskaram Prabhu ji's

    many nice points have beed raised here , too many to individualy quote , ...but a few points I would like to add , .....

    @viraja ...I agree totaly on the modesty issues , ..and on Sari wearing I can only say that I have been shocked to see how some indian women are now wearing the Sari with little more than a jeweled bra underneath a sari which is draped to reveal as much as possible , .....Ok it has allways happened , there have allways been women who use their looks and their bodies to gain attention and position , it has happened in courts and high society , ...but this does not mean that it is correct behavior , it is behavior of one who associates fully with material existance , ...Idealy in a cultured vedic society the empasis is upon realising our higher nature , so yes by promoting modest dress we are also promoting spiritual values , ...in some respects to dress respectfully is a dicipline which helps one overcome false association with the body .

    although I am western born I love wearing a Sari in some respects I found it wonderfuly liberating to be able to have a tradition to follow rather than having to considder that in the west one is constantly judged by ones apperance and the clothing one chooses to wear , I tend to wear only very traditional cotton saris as the moddern saris can also be fashion statements , ....

    in my mind the cotton Sari is so practical , it can be easily washed it can be worn in any number of ways depending upon what one is doing . it can be worn over the head which for temple use is vital as a mark od respect , but also for practicality in the sun it shades ones head and arms , ....I wear mine Gujarati tradition , the pallu is neatly pleated at the sholder and pinned and is faned out to cover the blouse and midiff and neatly tucked in at the back of the waist , this wat the sari stays neat all day and never fakks of and one is not allday fiddling about with it putting it back in place , ...I can easily work wearing a sari like this and it is also beautifull .

    one point on modesty , if we are devotees and especialy engaged in Deity seva one is not supposed to be thinking of obtaining anyones attention except the lord whos Darshan on is wanting to receive so we should derss nicely , clean fresh sari in beautifull colour , nothing can be more pleasing to the lord , ....when people bring up the subject of temple dancers and apsaras being shown scantily clad when shown on temple walls , .....we must remember that these are temple dancers and Apsaras ! ...it does not have much bearing on everyday dress , ...you will see all over India the sari is worn differently , and particularly under a hot sun one needs to protect one self from its heat , ...so why blame the muslims for introducing modesty ? ... when modesty and practicality were allready there ? ....after all they too have their own scantily clad dancing girls , ....every thing and every one has their position in society , what we need most to do is to bring back this tradition and allow the young to feel proud of their traditions , not by insisting that they follow it but by example and gentle explanation .

    as for the falling down pants , .... its sad that society has come to this , that the need to assert ones individuality has become so great that people will do anything just to be Hip and to be different ??? ....and in trying to be different , they follow a fashion statment adopted by others ???
    none of it makes sence , .... if we realy think about it we will feel some sort of compassion for the young who are presured into thinking that this is nececary , .....

    so yes, wearing a sari is very liberating , ...one dosent have to follow fashion , ...or be hip , ...or any such noncence , ....

    the only time I wear jeans is for gardening and heavy work , ...after all jeans were intended to be Work Wear ! ...well that is what I thought !

  7. #57
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    Re: Women and Western clothes

    Dear Ratikala ji,

    Thanks for your thoughts on this issue.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

  8. #58
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    Re: Women and Western clothes

    Namaste,

    Here is an issue that people in India should get behind and change the mindset of media about making degrading remarks about successful women.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-33341631

    Pranam.

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    Re: Women and Western clothes

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Namaste,

    Here is an issue that people in India should get behind and change the mindset of media about making degrading remarks about successful women.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-33341631

    Pranam.
    Namaste Believer ji,

    I went through this article. It is indeed demeaning to the womenfolk to be remarked as, "She makes a fashion statement with her lovely saris and serves as 'eye candy' at meetings," the magazine had reported in a recent post, without naming her. It added that her portfolio "is a mystery" and what "she exactly does is a puzzle".

    You know, they speak ill of women pursuing career in fashion, entertainment, movie industry and the politics. As there are perverted men, it appears the general populace thinks negatively of any woman who has to work in close contact with such men. Such stigma is not there in the West, it seems (or atleast what I have heard and read).

    Thanks for bringing up this issue.

    Cheers,

    Viraja
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

  10. #60
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    Re: Women and Western clothes

    Namaste,

    Some of the crass things which are acceptable in our American society:

    Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina is single and is one of the Republican candidates seeking nomination to run for the office of the President of the United States. He said that if he became the president, there will be a revolving First Lady. One of his colleagues chimed in that Graham is a 'bro without a ho'. There is not a peep from anyone at such non-sense coming from "conservative" Southern Republican senators. Talk about degradation of women!

    Pranam.

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