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Thread: The Ramayana Contradictions

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    The Ramayana Contradictions

    Namaste!

    I read the Ramayana for the first time a few months back and it has become one of my favorite narratives of all time. I find it completely inspiring and beautiful and I think there is a tremendous amount to learn from it.

    But there is one thing that troubles me about it, and I want to know if anyone has insights into this apparent contradiction in the story. I will try my best to be brief.

    I found myself enamored of Rama as a character. I admired his courage and his love for Sita, and I was cheering him on the whole story...

    ....Until the end, when he banishes the pregnant Sita to the wilderness in order to regain the respect of his people.

    Suddenly, I felt betrayed and angry at Rama. Even more so because despite this great sin (as I perceived it) I still wanted to admire him for all his good qualities. The trouble I am having is that the Rama that worried so much for his beloved Sita while searching for her, the Rama who fought so bravely for her, does not seem like the same Rama I read about in the Uttara Kanda - or the last book of the Ramayana. Not once during his search for her does he lament about his lost honor or the tarnish to his reputation. He worries only for her safety and wishes only to be with her again.

    I can understand his initial doubt in her purity when he saves her. God incarnate he may be, but he is still a man bound by the senses - including the illusions/suspicions of the mind. But why bend to the suspicions of his people a second time? After she has literally had a trial by fire and come out truthful? He may be a king, with responsibilities to his people - but he was a husband first.

    It is also my understanding that The Uttara Kanda was added much later to the Ramayana. Is it possible that the last book was written during a time when people were more conservative and couldn't justify a wife returning to her husband after living with another man?

    I have tried to justify Rama's behavior at the end many, many times. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. But my mind keeps coming back to one thought. If a man did this act today - abandoned his pregnant wife in the woods - he would be viewed as a monster, not as the ideal man.

    Thank you for reading my post. I hope to start an illuminating discussion. I certainly don't intend to offend. I think it's important to ask hard questions sometimes. Like I said, The Ramayana is one of my favorite narratives and I'd love to have more insight on it.

    Thank you!

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    Re: The Ramayana Contradictions

    Namaste,
    Quote Originally Posted by Jodhaa View Post
    Suddenly, I felt betrayed and angry at Rama. .........Not once during his search for her does he lament about his lost honor or the tarnish to his reputation. He worries only for her safety and wishes only to be with her again.

    God incarnate he may be, but he is still a man bound by the senses - including the illusions/suspicions of the mind.

    I hope to start an illuminating discussion.
    What can be said when a person, new to Hinduism, thinks that she/he has the intellect and the right to evaluate God's actions?

    We are the products of our environment, our religious/spiritual training and most of all our station in life. When one is raised in a feminist environment, everything is looked at from the point of view of a man being fair to the woman in his life at all costs. Forgotten is the fact that the MAN in this context is God incarnate. He is not doing anything as an ordinary human being, but performing acts to show what is idealism. A king is beholden to, responsible to and lives for one thing only, and that is the welfare of his subjects. A boss is also the biggest servant of the people he lords over. Without them, he is not a boss. Without the subjects, there is no king. The family is part of the kingdom, not the firsts among the kingdom. The selfish notion of placing ones family above all else has to be transcended. It is your duty, your dharma that reigns supreme, not yourself, or your loved ones.

    The only illumination in this discussion is that the starting point - thinking of the Lord as a mere human - and trying to evaluate His actions is very, very wrong. When it comes to Divinity, one must try to understand why things were done in a particular way, not bring ones ego into the picture and think that she/he has the intellect to judge the Lord himself. He acted the way did because of the accusation of a single subject and not because He had any doubts about Sita's chastity. He is bound by His dharma, His first and foremost obligation to His subjects, NOT to his wife - perhaps a difficult concept to grasp in this me-my-mine world, but we are talking about the Divine teaching a lesson, not about a soft-hearted mortal looking out only for her/him-self and her/his family.

    It would be advisable that any future doubts be phrased in an inquisitive tone rather than an accusatory one. One does not say rotten things about the Divinity as if they were your equals and you have the right/intellect to judge Them. By being incarnated in this material world, They are here to teach by show and tell, not to be judged per selfish human standards. Ramayana is not a script for a Hollywood production in which the characters are puppets in the director's hand. It is a scripture, an account of the Divine Lila, to be learned from and not subject to human evaluation. Gods descend to the earth to teach, not to learn or be critiqued by mere mortals.

    Pranam.
    Last edited by Believer; 17 August 2012 at 01:34 AM.

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    Re: The Ramayana Contradictions

    Vannakkam: The mind can always find something wrong with anything. There is a whole area of the brain called the critical room. The first analogy, although simplistic, I heard on this was that of a stunningly gorgeous model/actress. Beautiful in all regards, excellent actor, etc. Admirable, shall we say, from many angles. But ... she had a crooked tooth.So more was written on the crooked tooth than on anything else. Seinfeld did skits on this, and half of Jerry's relationships failed because he couldn't get away from that one fault, and it was usually a minor item.

    Another was the man with the near perfect lawn that had one re-occurring weed. So he spends all his time on the weed, forgetting the rest of the lawn is perfect.

    This can be applied to a lot of things. Even in debate here we'll see comments like ... "That was an excellent analysis, and I agree with it, but ...

    And then the response is a long rant on the 'but' part. Maybe that's just the nature of the mind.

    So its up to you.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: The Ramayana Contradictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Namaste,

    What can be said when a person, new to Hinduism, thinks that she/he has the intellect and the right to evaluate God's actions?

    He is bound by His dharma, His first and foremost obligation to His subjects, NOT to his wife - perhaps a difficult concept to grasp in this me-my-mine world, but we are talking about the Divine teaching a lesson, not about a soft-hearted mortal looking out only for her/him-self and her/his family.

    It would be advisable that any future doubts be phrased in an inquisitive tone rather than an accusatory one. It is a scripture, an account of the Divine Lila, to be learned from and not subject to human evaluation. Gods descend to the earth to teach, not to learn or be critiqued by mere mortals.
    Namaste, Believer

    First, thank you for taking the time to respond to my thread. I am only sorry you took such a negative view of my inquiry. My intention was not to insult. As I stated in my initial post, I love the Ramayana and hold its story in profound respect.

    However, if the purpose of the epics is to teach us the right path, how can we learn anything if we cannot understand the motives of the individuals involved? You say we are not to judge the behavior of God or hold him to our selfish human standards. But are we not all a part of the divine? Is not the spark of the divine in all? To judge Rama, are we not just taking a harder look at ourselves?

    I would never judge Rama actions as irredeemable wrong, because that would be hypocritical of me. We all must make difficult choices - sometimes there is no "right" answer. Or at least the right answer is often the most difficult one. My quest is to understand how the author (or possibly authors) of the Ramayana meant to reconcile these two actions of Rama.

    Many of the lessons in the Ramayana are timeless - loyalty, friendship, steadfastness, courage.

    But the world does change. Peoples views change. I think the Ramayana can still be applied today as a moral guidepost for many, but I also believe,that like any text, it has to be evaluated based on the context of the time it was written in. This is why I still want to admire Rama. I know the mandates of the society he grew up in are vastly different then my own.

    Perhaps you are correct that my view is selfish. I am willing to acknowledge the possibility. But my sincere questions come from a well meaning place. I think all viewpoints are valuable - that is one reason why there are so many different people in the world - so we can gain new perspective on things. If you label someone a feminist or selfish, you have made a judgement call that will effect your ability to really hear what they are trying to say.

    I thank you sincerely, for the time you took to respond to my questions, though they clearly displease you.

    Peace to you, Believer.

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    Re: The Ramayana Contradictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Vannakkam: The mind can always find something wrong with anything. There is a whole area of the brain called the critical room. The first analogy, although simplistic, I heard on this was that of a stunningly gorgeous model/actress. Beautiful in all regards, excellent actor, etc. Admirable, shall we say, from many angles. But ... she had a crooked tooth.So more was written on the crooked tooth than on anything else. Seinfeld did skits on this, and half of Jerry's relationships failed because he couldn't get away from that one fault, and it was usually a minor item.

    Another was the man with the near perfect lawn that had one re-occurring weed. So he spends all his time on the weed, forgetting the rest of the lawn is perfect.

    This can be applied to a lot of things. Even in debate here we'll see comments like ... "That was an excellent analysis, and I agree with it, but ...

    And then the response is a long rant on the 'but' part.

    Aum Namasivaya
    Namaste, Eastern Mind,

    Thank you for your response. Your words have a ring of truth .... but ()...

    Perhaps my question is on too sensitive a subject. Perhaps it is better to engage in a smaller group, where my words cannot be misunderstood. I do not wish to have my quest for understanding turn into an argument. I'm a better thinker than a fighter.

    Thank you- Peace!

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    Re: The Ramayana Contradictions

    Namast,

    Jodhaa, some good points have been made in reply to your post so far.

    We call Rāmāyaṇa in English an 'epic,' and that word leads to the idea that it's just a story for entertainment and poetry. As Believer has pointed out, it is much more than that.

    If you do wish to analyse it further, I have found this discussion interesting, for helping me to open my mind and think about the story in a new way, when I was just starting out and feeling very confused.

    Consider, also, that a religious story which many Westerners revere is one of God sending his child amongst ignorant people to be tortured and murdered. On a literal human level, it seems less horrifying only because it's familiar. Yet the people devoted to that story find a number of deeper meanings in it.

    The actions of the Divine as portrayed in Rāmāyaṇa also have much to teach, if one leaves behind modern cynicism and looks with respect and open-mindedness, to reach for the higher lessons that are there in such rich abundance.

    Indraneela
    ===
    Oṁ Indrāya Namaḥ.
    Oṁ Namaḥ Śivāya.

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    Re: The Ramayana Contradictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Indraneela View Post
    Namast,

    Consider, also, that a religious story which many Westerners revere is one of God sending his child amongst ignorant people to be tortured and murdered. On a literal human level, it seems less horrifying only because it's familiar. Yet the people devoted to that story find a number of deeper meanings in it.

    The actions of the Divine as portrayed in Rāmāyaṇa also have much to teach, if one leaves behind modern cynicism and looks with respect and open-mindedness, to reach for the higher lessons that are there in such rich abundance.
    Thank you for your response Indraneela. I will look at the link you have provided when I have an opportunity. (I am leaving for the weekend in a few hours and would want to give it my full attention)

    You're analogy from Christianity is appropriate. Although I will wax a little childish for a moment and say two wrongs don't make a right - The existence of apparent cruelty in one faith does not vindicate it's existence in another - it just means both scenarios are apparently cruel. (I am saying this having not read the discussions you have linked me to, however. I look forward to getting more insight)

    I also know that for many, the Ramayana is very sacred and is more than just a story. But I think it's status as an important text makes it even more crucial that we look at it from many angles. If we use it to influence our lives, that is a very powerful tool. Let us not misuse it.

    Thank you so much for your response! I really appreciate your patience with me as I endeavor to learn more.

    Peace!

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    Re: The Ramayana Contradictions

    namast

    first i must thank the members of this forum for their response to Jodhaas question.

    i must admit, when learning the story of Ramayan, this is something which troubled me greatly, along with parts of the mahabarata:

    One of the reasons i took great pleasure in reading the Bhagavat Gita was in my mind i thought (being a mere mortal) Arjuns reservations in not fighting were admirable, and i was wondering how he could be convinced otherwise, and why his position seemed so worng?

    thats when i read the Gita, and all became clear, such beautiful language used, truly is such an inspiration, and i finally understood the reason,

    the reason for my little aside there is, i too, felt like jodhaa here, in terms of i was wondering how it would be possible for Ram to "appear to" abandon his wife, his one true love, in the manner that he did. Like the Bhagavat Gita itself, i was hoping the forum members here would illuminate me in that sense and i feel that Jodhaa meant the same as well and meant no offense to anyone in the manner of the post.

    i must add that, the reasons i would ask the questions is NOT because i'm looking for faults in our religion, but i want to remove any mis interpretations from my mind that i may have.

    i would like to thank Indraneela as well for the link presented, that has cleared up a lot of issues for me, but if the forum members would permit me, i would like to ask one question.


    from the link, it shows, even though as much as Ram loved Sita, he could not go against his Dharma, his duty as a King and ruler of his people, and had to do what is in the best interest of his people, a decision which, in purely a mere mortal point of view, must have been the most difficult he ever made.

    Now, can i ask, if the populas felt this way about Sita, (which i can't imagine myself, in that position, would ever think, of my loving queen, the wife of my King!), and for this reason, Ram had to send Sita away, (maybe i'm wrong here, please correct me if this is the case), so hypothetically, if for instance, the populas took a disliking to say lakhsman, would he also suffer the same fate? for the greater good? Because we know well of the devotion of Sita to Ram and vice versa, but here two innocents are made to suffer due to the belief of those without the knowledge of what happened (the people).

    from a purely personal view, My anger is aimed at the people, because how could they think that of their queen, and the wife of a king they so adored! It was a situation that Ram should never have been put in.

    i apologise if this question is offensive, its never my intention for that, any clarification would help immensely

    i am at the behest of the more learned


    thanks


    Vikash

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    Re: The Ramayana Contradictions

    Pranam

    Quote Originally Posted by Jodhaa View Post
    Namaste!

    I read the Ramayana for the first time a few month,--- I find it completely inspiring and beautiful and I think there is a tremendous amount to learn from it.
    Oh really?
    _____
    Suddenly, I felt betrayed and angry at Rama. Even more so because despite this great sin----

    God incarnate he may be, but he is still a man bound by the senses - including the illusions/suspicions of the mind. -------


    I have tried to justify Rama's behavior at the end many, many times. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. But my mind keeps coming back to one thought. If a man did this act today - abandoned his pregnant wife in the woods - he would be viewed as a monster, not as the ideal man.



    Thank you!
    I am having trouble understanding the intention of Jodhaa, does Ram need your approval ?

    How will you ever understand Ram if you think he is capable of sin, that he is under the influence of senses or imply that he is a monster?

    For those who know Ram as God would also know that he is inseparable from his Sakti, rest is what ever lesson we take from his lila, certainly not what you conclude by reading Ramayan once and suddenly it becomes best, your favriote. now why don't I believe that!

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: The Ramayana Contradictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Pranam

    I am having trouble understanding the intention of Jodhaa, does Ram need your approval ?

    How will you ever understand Ram if you think he is capable of sin, that he is under the influence of senses or imply that he is a monster?

    For those who know Ram as God would also know that he is inseparable from his Sakti, rest is what ever lesson we take from his lila, certainly not what you conclude by reading Ramayan once and suddenly it becomes best, your favriote. now why don't I believe that!

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Namaste Ganeshprasad!

    Thank you for your reply.

    Perhaps I am not being clear enough in my posts. I will endeavor to fix that in the future.

    Why is it not possible to appreciate a work but still question parts of it? Why must it be all or nothing? The world is comprised of shades of gray.

    I think my word choice is causing confusion.

    My reference to the word "monster" and "sin" was merely to illustrate the possible difference in perception of Rama's actions between the time the story was conceived and the perceptions of many people in today's world. Certainly not all people, but many.

    Thank you again for your response.

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