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Thread: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

  1. #41
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    Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

    Harjas Kaur Ji
    You have added more so my reply will be appear limited. I hope to read what you have since added.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harjas Kaur View Post
    I'm not offended at all. It's a very important topic to discuss and explore. I enjoy this topic of conversation. Clearly it belongs just as well in Islam section as Sikhim section, perhaps more so in Islam section because it discusses encroachment of Abrahamic ideologies into Sikhi. The reason I jumped in here was to correct what I feel is a serious problem in misconstruing Sikh religion as a form of Islam. You must understand the underlying political interests which seeks to unite Sikhs with Muslims against Hindus.
    It is important topic I agree, as it can make or define a person's identity or their understanding. I am suggesting that we acknowledge that the OP on Sufism is not under discussion any more by us and step out of Heartfully’s thread.

    Sikhism is not a form of Islam imho. There are however certain things which I think influenced my early post and hope to share those in the future for thought. Perhaps you are aware of them and have captured them above. I will go on to read the new posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harjas Kaur View Post
    Again, not to nitpick, but Sikhs are fighting hard to establish independence of the religion. I'm not doing that. I'm a Sanatan Sikh, and believe firmly that original Sikhism belongs to Sanatana Dharma as a sect of Hinduism. And I am prepared to prove that in any debate. The Guru saw Truth because He was a realized Master, not because "Sikhism" is superior to any other, least of all Hinduism because all of the major concepts in Guru's bani.
    That is interesting, you introduce me to Sanatan Sikhism. Does that imply you would recognise the Upanishads? I assume not if you as you have been baptized. So does that limit it to historic ties only? I would be interested to understand more about Sanatan Sikhs please.

    Sikhism is not superior or inferior to any religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harjas Kaur View Post
    Why are you writing "praise be upon him" for "Prophet?" Are you a Muslim that you praise Mohamed? There is a powerful reason the Sikh Guru's did not praise Mohamed specifically as that alone would be acknowledging him as a Prophet, and hence submitting to his religious authority as Divine.
    No, I am not a Muslim, I understand pbuh to mean, “peace be upon him” as a term of respect, nothing more. To my knowledge I would have to make much stronger declarations to recognise Islam and the Prophet as the only way to God. As we are on the topic I am yet to find evidence that any person or religion exists outside of the non-dual absolute (Akal Purakh or call it what you will). I am confident to respect all religions before creating dualism in the mind and falling again to Maya and Ego.

  2. #42
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    Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

    Namaste All,

    This is not exactly on the subject.

    Hinduism sees the truth at three phenomenal levels and also at the transcendental. There is dictum to know the Agnivaisvanaro, the Tajjasso, the Shushupti-Sarvesvara -- and then the Turyam. But scriptures also warn us not to worship three Lords of three phenomenal stations of waking, dreaming, and sleeping as three different Yamas (Deaths). Scripture say that the Death is One. It is said that who see many Lords die many times.

    Hinduism is very specific that the manifested creation is divine Purusha, its base being shantam shivam Narayana. The teaching is to worship the manifested creation and the unmanifested-undifferentiated primormordial prakriti, together. But the goal is only the immortal Turiyam Self -- which is not worshippable, since it does not admit of a second. Shri Krishna in fact speaks on this in Gita, lightly warning us of many difficulties of only worshipping the formless.

    Possibly, except Hinduism, no other 'ism' recognises this. Most other religions harp only on the formless. Scriptural injunction against idol worshipping, IMO, is actually warning against worshipping of the fleshy body, which is lifeless and non-intelligent of its own. But the meaning of idol worship, IMO, has got distorted to massive extent. There are indeed huge problems, if one cannot see the world as divine purusha-agnivaisvanara, as the FULL (Yajvanji will say Bhuma) --- else Iswara, Allah, Yawvey, Elohim, and God remain warring entitities in the consciousness.

    Visvarupa Darshana is necessary (as my good friend kd gupta ji advised once). Else, the love, the compassion, required for entering into Devi is simply not available. If someone is my opponent then such some one is only driven by Ishwara's maya power. The hater is helpless. He is driven like an automatic machine. Compassion can only get us out of our own bitterness and grudges.

    Durga is difficult to attain. Indra Got it, only after His conceit of doership was killed. It is only in Veda that the warring God Indra (the mind) is admonished "It is all lies that you killed opponents. All is you".

    Sorry. My main point is: Possibly, except Hinduism, no other 'ism' recognises the danger of sticking only to formless as the worshippable. I may be wrong.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 12 November 2009 at 01:04 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  3. #43

    Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

    Scriptural injunction against idol worshipping, IMO, is actually warning against worshipping of the fleshy body, which is lifeless and non-intelligent of its own. But the meaning of idol worship, IMO, has got distorted to massive extent. There are indeed huge problems, if one cannot see the world as divine purusha-agnivaisvanara, as the FULL (Yajvanji will say Bhuma) --- else Iswara, Allah, Yawvey, Elohim, and God remain warring entitities in the consciousness.
    For the most part I agree with your points in relation to snatana dharma and perhaps explains some of the teachings of Sikh Gurbani philosophically. But even that would be a mistake to overgeneralize, despite protestations to the contrary by Tat Khalsas reformists, since murthi pooja existed in Sikhism, even in Golden Temple as late as 1906. It cannot be said that Sikhs were Advaitins or they were any sect of Islam, but were clearly sanatan and this would be the proper perspective in interpreting Gurmat. The philosophical underpinnings of Gurmat are achinya bheda abheda and not a strict non-dualism. This is a Vaishnav bhakti oriented Dvaita philosophy as well as accepting of non-dualism.

    Now, analyzing how that insight plays into actual Abrahamic faiths as a legitimate "interpretation" of their scriptures which has only "become distorted" is another matter.

    Elohim is the common name for God. It is a plural form, but "The usage of the language gives no support to the supposition that we have in the plural form Elohim, applied to the God of Israel, the remains of an early polytheism, or at least a combination with the higher spiritual beings" (Kautzsch). Grammarians call it a plural of majesty or rank, or of abstraction, or of magnitude (Gesenius, Grammatik, 27th ed...) http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05393a.htm
    In the oldest Abrahamic scripture in the oldest monotheistic faith, the name for God is given as plural coinciding with spurious and illegitimate texts within the tradition, much like the later Gnostics, who recognized that a range of deities not unlike devatay existed. Rather I support that it's due to proclamation of strict monotheism that hostility to "idol worship" is based rather than any philosophical insight against worship of the ego-identity in the flesh.

    In its essential form, the story reports that Muhammad longed to convert his kinsmen and neighbors of Mecca to Islam. As he was reciting Sūra an-Najm[2], considered a revelation by the angel Gabriel, Satan tempted him to utter the following lines after verses 19 and 20 ("Have you considered Allāt and al-'Uzzā / and Manāt, the other third?" These are the exalted gharāniq, whose intercession is hoped for.)
    Allāt, al-'Uzzā and Manāt were three goddesses worshipped by the Meccans...The subtext to the event is that Muhammad was backing away from his otherwise uncompromising monotheism by saying that these goddesses were real and their intercession effective. The Meccans were overjoyed to hear this and joined Muhammad in ritual prostration at the end of the sūrah... Islamic tradition holds that Gabriel chastised Muhammad for adulterating the revelation, at which point [Qur'an 22:52] is revealed to comfort him,
    We have sent no messenger or apostle before youwith whose recitations Satan did not tamper.Yet God abrogates what Satan interpolates;then He confirms His revelations,for God is all-knowing and all-wise. Muhammad took back his words and the persecution by the Meccans resumed. Verses [Qur'an 53:21] were given, in which the goddesses are belittled. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_Verses
    So even in Islam exists an incident in which their final Prophet admits the reality of goddesses contrary to monotheism. On what scriptural basis can we impose our own interpretations of Advaita? If monotheism is the basis of opposition to idolatry and even the earliest texts leave remnants of belief in multiple divinities, Abrahamic monotheism by it's own scriptural sources is the corruption. The resulting persecutions against other polytheistic faiths is hypocritical and unwarranted rather than any expression of Advaitic insight.

    Now you say:
    "Iswara, Allah, Yawvey, Elohim, and God remain warring entitities in the consciousness."
    Are you equating Allah, Yahweh and Elohim with Iswara and God and then claiming these are warring entities within our consciousness? Isn't that a corruption of the Vedic definition of Ishwara/Paramatman and God/Parabrahm? Because "Allah, Elohim, Yahweh" in these cosmologies are figurative equivalents of the Supreme Absolute Reality. How can they be "warring within us" unless there are fundamental misconceptions in Abrahamic religions? And if you acknowledge there is a war within, are you reducing Advaita to a Zoroastrian division of God versus the Devil as posited in the Abrahamic construction?
    if one cannot see the world as divine purusha-agnivaisvanara, as the FULL (Yajvanji will say Bhuma)
    This is the pivotal question. Can it honestly be said this is Abrahamic theology intended by their scriptures?
    4. naaraayaNa paro jyotir-aatmaa naarayaNa: para: |
    naarayaNam param brahma tatvam naarayaNam para: |
    naarayaNa paro dhyaata dhyaanam naaraayaNa: para: ||

    naarayaNa (Naarayana) para: jyoti (is the greatest of lights), para: aatmaa (greatest of souls),
    param brahma (is the greatest Brahman), para: tatvam (is the best of essences)
    para: dhyaataa
    (greatest of those who meditate), para: dhyaanam (best of meditations).

    "Verily is Sriman Narayana the "Paramaatma."

    ~
    Narayana Suktam, verses 4-6
    I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies
    on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you.
    ~Leviticus 26:30 Bible

    This is Abrahamic scriptural injunction, not corruption or misinterpretation. Does this reflect philosophical belief in Bhuma? We interpolate wise sanatan beliefs onto theirs, and honor what we interpret as our own beliefs "in the name of their religions" as a form of self-deceived "unity."

  4. #44
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    Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

    Namaste! Thanks! Are you a Sufi? I see Hinduism as embracing however unique a person's path is and I love that. Some tariqas are very open to the wisdom of other traditions; others think Islam is the only way. I would have assumed the Naqshbandi-Haqqani would not be too keen on a dervish practicing Hinduism.

    Llewelyn Vaughn (a Naqshbandi from the west) just wrote a book about the Feminine Divine I look forward to reading. Irina Tweedie (who brought the lineage Llewellyn Vaughn comes through had a lot of experiences with Hinduism in India. One of the first things her guru/sheikh told her was there are Hindu Sufis, Christian Sufis, Muslim Sufis.

    Om Shanti!
    heartfully

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritualseeker View Post
    Namaste,

    I think from a perspective of Sanatana Dharma it would be okay. however if you take the islamic position it would not be so much okay. It depends on what Sufis you mean. Even the Naqshbandi Mujadidi sufis differ. You have some that are very lax and open, then you have others who are very strict Muslims who hold fast the Quran and way of Muhammad. Sufism of Shaykh Zulfiqar Ahmad would be very strict to the Quran and Sunnah and if you believed in God in a way that expresses Kufr (disbelief) such as believing God is everywhere and in everything and we are God then such a belief would not be acceptable to Sufis of that Naqshbandi Mujadidi Order.

    Now you may be able to get away with Naqshbandi Haqqanis (those who follow Nazim al-haqqani). They seem to accept the old sufis sayings of there are many paths to Allah. However, even amongst them you may have disagreements. Perhaps Nazim al-haqqani wouldnt mind but sufis of a less calibre might take offense to "paganistic" views of Hindus as they would put it frankly.

    it is hard to make them compatable since some Sufis are strict adherence to the close minded Quran and way of Muhammad. Those who are more about direct experience might not care because they have experienced God in all things and sees God everywhere and has perfected their vision of Wahdat al-wujud (Oneness of Being)

    OM
    -juan

  5. #45

    Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

    It is very late here, and I will elaborate on this later but I was very much into Sufism before I became a Hindu; the Panentheism *the en is important, making into the god is in the universe AND transcendent, and not just the universe* of Sufism made me understanding to what Hinduism says about Brahma; the karma system *as properly believed and not just what we think in the west* made inherent sense and then Ma Kali burst into my life and took control as she tends to do in her devotees lives in her typical, beautiful way.
    Salutation be to you O Narayani, O you who are the good of all good, O auspicious Devi, who accomplish every object, the giver of refuge, O three eyed Gauri!

    -Devi Mahatmya Chapter 11, Verse 10.

  6. Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

    I believe you can find an appropriate answer through a better understanding of the basic concepts of Hinduism. I hope the following article will be helpful to you. Hinduism - Everyone Is A Hindu

    I am really delighted to find such people who are ready to accept the good from different religions and establish a wholesome 'way of life' which will help towards the welfare of the whole world.

  7. #47

    Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

    I think a person can be both Hindu and Sufi, though most Sufis are Muslim, of course. To be a sufi is just a person who seeks to meet God in this life, as opposed to the next. And yeah, the Naqshbandi order I think has definitely been influenced a lot by Hinduism and Buddhism. They are definitely an interesting group. If you would like to know more about the beliefs of the Naqshbandi, here is a great site: http://www.goldensufi.org/beliefs_ethics.html
    Pave to Musalman, pave Hindu, Sikh ve, sada ve Rabb jive; ek sada dil ve. Apne aap nu tu vakhra kyun samjhe...?
    Whether you are Muslim, Hindu, or Sikh...Our God is the same; our heart is one. Why do you consider yourself different...?


    Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself?

  8. #48
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    Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

    [quote=ohhcuppycakee;74880]I think a person can be both Hindu and Sufi, though most Sufis are Muslim, of course. To be a sufi is just a person who seeks to meet God in this life, as opposed to the next http/quote]

    Iam not familiar with sufi ideology other than that they are very tolerant people. Do they expect to meet god in this life, does it mean after death after one ends journey and breaths his last? The second assertion 'meeting in next life' if that is directed at hindu thinking, I am going to clarify it and explain a bit about rebirth. Hindus take rebirth with only atma transcending the life, the previous body is dropped and it promptly disintegrates rejoining the elements (pancha bhootas) it is made from. One can rarely join Brahman (The God or supreme being) after one janma, but usually majority cant accomplish that goal as most of us cant be so dharmic and sathvic to fulfill all our karma related obligations, but is doable though. Most take more than one attempt. In either case it is merely atman merging with paramatma. No physical body merging happeneing, at least body wont go anywhere other than into the earth. So the hindus cremate without any attachment to the dead bodies, for its job is done at death. namaste.

  9. #49
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    Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

    Quote Originally Posted by ohhcuppycakee View Post
    I think a person can be both Hindu and Sufi, though most Sufis are Muslim, of course. To be a sufi is just a person who seeks to meet God in this life, as opposed to the next. And yeah, the Naqshbandi order I think has definitely been influenced a lot by Hinduism and Buddhism. They are definitely an interesting group. If you would like to know more about the beliefs of the Naqshbandi, here is a great site: http://www.goldensufi.org/beliefs_ethics.html
    Dear OCC, a Sufi is a Muslim first. They accept Q'uran as the holy scripture and Muhammad as their prophet. How can a Hindu become a Sufi without becoming a Muslim first ?

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  10. #50
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    Re: Can someone be both Hindu and Sufi?

    Vannakkam: Although individuals can certainly claim to be two religions at once, I really don't see any authorities in any religion authorising or accepting it. Basically, by making that claim, you become apostate to both religions. Not only that, but it has to be confusing for the individual. Dual citizenship may work in political arenas, but not so well in religious affairs. If you go to your imam or the Pope and tell them, "By the way, I'm also a Hindu," I doubt that he's going to say, "Oh, isn't that nice!"

    Aum Namasivaya

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