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Thread: Conception of God

  1. #1
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    Conception of God

    Hello, I've recently consulted a Jyotish guru. He told me to worship lord Shiva and gave me a mantra.
    I've recently started in bhakti, but I'm really having a hard time trying to harmonize devotion to Ishta-devata with Advaita teachings.
    I know (from the advaitic point of view) that the ultimate truth is impersonal, pure consciousness.
    But when it comes to Ishvara or Ishta-devata, how showld I view it?
    I've heard the opinion from some vedantins that ishvara is insentient like a computer or an automaton controlling the cosmic manifestation.
    How will I worship and ask for the grace of Ishvara if it is an insentient computer?
    Others say that it is a mental image that helps me focus my mind on the absolute inpersonal Brahman.
    How useful is to worship an imaginary being or how possible is to get the help from something without attributes?

    Thanks.

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    Re: Conception of God

    Namaste ale84 ji

    As your post didn't appear in Advaita forum, interested to ask few questions without hurting spritual sentiments of Advatins in this form.

    This is not an answer to your question but could help you to analyse the situation and arrive at the solution.

    1. Why do you think Advaita route is a best fit for you?
    2. Do you pray out of compulsion or you are inclined to pray.
    3. (Hypothetically) If a renowned person from a different faith advises you to pray say a devil will you start praying a devil.
    I am NOT trying to confuse you, hope these questions will guide you to solution

    I am not a follower of Advaita philosophy.

    Answer to your question based on the philosophy that chose me is :

    If God is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent etc etc, then HIS form with the attributes will be seen every where. Isn't it?

    HE is this universe and beyond. I should be part of him because I am a part in this Universe. Isn't i?

    Between the live telecast of human beheading and breath taking scenes from Kashmir valey what would you prefer ? Naturally HE should have a pleasant attractive form that brings happiness. Isn't it?

    I sincerely WISH you to see SHIVAYA in everything you do.
    Anirudh...

  3. #3
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    Re: Conception of God

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namaste

    You bring up an excellent point that needs some ~run way~ to explain… there are two words that you have used: advaita + vedānta . With or without knowing many think this is the only school that encapsulates advaita. Now when I use this word I am defining it by the following:
    • a+dvaita = not + dual , not divided.
    People come to the conclusion that this means ‘not two’ and that is fine, but as usual within our sanātana dharma this term has a deeper
    significance – but before we go there, let me finish this thought.

    One needs to be mindful that the advaita + vedānta that you are discussing is that which is advocated by ādi śaṅkara. We know this by the words you have offered. He has had a most positive and profound affect not only in India but around the world.

    Yet this notion of advitīya also has other schools that are slightly different ( but not contesting) advaita vedānta. One that I am referring to is the advitīya view found within kaśmir śaivism. Its views differ in many places. I will not list them out at thistime, but will comment just on the notion on the view of advitīya.

    Within kaśmir śaivism this advitīya takes on the notion of wholeness¹ or pūrṇapātrapratibhaṭa meaning fullness or a full vessel i.e. overflowing , supreme.

    The notion of ‘not two’ is mildly interesting, but it sends one off on another path of counting ‘me’ and everything else. It gets involved in concepts that have defined advaita vedānta as māyā-vāda and this has caused too much mischief for many and this was not the intent of ādi śaṅkara. Todays mind got involved and enamored by what is real, not real, illusion , all these things that tend to be intellectually interesting, but was mis-understood , being dealt with more than needed ( so says rāmaṇa mahaṛṣi).

    So what’s that point yajvan ? Well within kaśmir śaivism this wholeness is none other then śiva. This fullness is non-different from He who is supreme. Within His name we see this. Śiva’s name is rooted in śī , ‘in whom all things lie’.
    Śiva ( some prefer to call paramaśiva) is this fullness so there is no issue of personal or impersonal; no issue of nirguṇa¹ or saguṇa¹. There is no brain cramp because the harmony that is created via knowing all is śiva.
    Who cares if I see the top half of a ice-berg or the bottom half? I know from top to bottom it is an iceberg. Like that, within kaśmir śaivism there is no brain cramp, no consternation of personal, impersonal, pure awareness or active awareness, or vacuum awareness. Because all is within Him how can there be any angst of what is or is not ?

    So, one’s adoration can go unfettered to the Supreme. In fact there is no issue to even consider the quality of śiva as viṣṇu ; Why so ? Viṣṇu’s name is rooted in viṣ ‘all-pervading’, so where can there be any distinction of these śiva & viṣṇu – in whom all things lie must be by definition ‘all pervading’. Where is the issue ? I see none. Yet we will find many intransigent (unwilling to compromise) that they differ.

    In any case, this point of view of pūrṇapātrapratibhaṭa is one way to mitigate any consternation you may be experiencing.

    iti śivaṁ or 'may there be welfare (for all)!' , or all is essentially Śiva.

    words/references
    • nirguṇa - without qualities; if I wrote nirguṇā it would be defined as 'having no cord or string ' - I hope one sees the association between the two.
    • sagua - with qualities; and if I wrote saguā it then would me ' with cord or string'
    • Ādi śaṅkara we know as śaṅkara bhagavatpāda.
      • ādi = first, beginning
      • Śaṅkara = śaṃkara = causing prosperity , auspicious , beneficent. This is another name for śiva or rudra.
      • bhagavatpāda = bhagavat+pāda bhagavat is glorious , illustrious , divine + pāda or pādāḥ is added to proper names or titles in token of respect.
      • With this case pāda it is then a ray or beam of light (considered as the foot of a heavenly body).Yet what is this 1st or beginning? He was the first Śaṅkarācārya, as he set up the maţha-s (some write as mutt's, math's) across India.
    • wholeness - where will we find this notion of fullness called out ?

      bṛhadāraṇyakopaniṣad (bṛhadāraṇyaka-upaniṣad) , chapter 5.1.1 called om kham brahma-brāhmaṇa. Also in the opening hymn of the isāvāsya upaniṣad we find the same hymn once again called out:

      oṁ pūrṇamadaḥ pūrṇamidaṁ pūrṇāt pūrṇamudacyate |
      pūrṇasya pūrṇamādāya pūrṇamīvāvashiṣyate ||

      That is whole; this is whole;
      From that whole this whole came;
      From that whole, this whole removed,
      What remains is whole.

      Are there other places the notion of wholeness/ fullness is called out ? Yes, we find this notion ( with different words) used in the mālinīvijayottara tantra ; I will add the verse/hymn if there is interest.
      And another place ? Yes, this notion of pūrṇatā ( fullness) , bhūman, wholeness , can be found within the chāndogya upaniṣad
    Last edited by yajvan; 21 September 2014 at 10:36 AM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #4

    Re: Conception of God

    Quote Originally Posted by ale84 View Post
    Hello, I've recently consulted a Jyotish guru. He told me to worship lord Shiva and gave me a mantra.
    I've recently started in bhakti, but I'm really having a hard time trying to harmonize devotion to Ishta-devata with Advaita teachings.
    I know (from the advaitic point of view) that the ultimate truth is impersonal, pure consciousness.
    Sorry dear Ale

    I have nothing to say to this. Simply because the local-heart overrules the local-head. This is just the way it is. After crossing that line of reason, I don't really care. I simply AM. Beautiful and bountiful. Just like you see me in that picture.

    I like the way Yajvan puts it. Whether you look at the iceberg top-down or bottom up how does it matter? It is all ... well ... Me Moreover, you can't stop Me from adoring and worshiping Me.
    Last edited by ameyAtmA; 21 September 2014 at 01:06 AM. Reason: Included the part of the quote to which this comment applies
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  5. #5

    Re: Conception of God

    Quote Originally Posted by ale84 View Post
    But when it comes to Ishvara or Ishta-devata, how showld I view it?
    I've heard the opinion from some vedantins that ishvara is insentient like a computer or an automaton controlling the cosmic manifestation.
    How will I worship and ask for the grace of Ishvara if it is an insentient computer?
    Others say that it is a mental image that helps me focus my mind on the absolute inpersonal Brahman.
    How useful is to worship an imaginary being or how possible is to get the help from something without attributes?

    Thanks.
    IT? No, this is not the correct view. You seek grace from the Graceful, and mercy from the Merciful. Ishvar is neither imaginary nor an automaton.

    What you have described is His prakRti. PrakRti is insentient, and can be faintly described as the automaton. Ishvar is just the opposite, the ONE Who supplies the sentience to the insentient, to CAUSE the sentience, Who is the CAUSE of the sentience. Ishvar is Brahman and Brahman is Ishvar.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  6. #6
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    Re: Conception of God

    Quote Originally Posted by ale84 View Post
    I know (from the advaitic point of view) that the ultimate truth is impersonal, pure consciousness.
    But when it comes to Ishvara or Ishta-devata, how showld I view it?
    I've heard the opinion from some vedantins that ishvara is insentient like a computer or an automaton controlling the cosmic manifestation.
    How will I worship and ask for the grace of Ishvara if it is an insentient computer?
    Dear All,

    This is where I think the Visishtadvaitic way of understanding god and consciousness comes in handy. As god in VA is not 'pure consciousness', he is verily the 'Saguna Brahman' - Brahman with attributes. And Consciousness as in Knowledge always belongs to the self (or god) and points to an object. Thus, consciousness is an 'attribute' of god and hence there is nothing called pure Consciousness. Thus we see god as the Saguna murthi, with form and all, whose attributes are knowledge, bliss and happiness, and this approach clears any doubts in the minds of the aspirant as to how to approach god or to have some foundational understanding on the traits of god and how to visualize him.

    This is not to say VA better equips an aspirant, rather, a genuine curiosity expressed over how to understand god as pure consciousness and take to saguna worship in Advaita (much as ale84 has asked in my understanding).

    Thanks & Regards.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

  7. #7
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    Re: Conception of God

    Thanks all for the answers. I have no problem in accepting that the ultimate truth is impersonal.
    What I don't wanna think is that all the japa I'm gonna do is just a placebo.
    I wanna know that my worship will reach the grace of a higher Intelligence, altough I'm not different from that Intelligence, but this body-mind mechanism really needs from the grace of God.
    I think Vishistadvaita is also necesary for Advaita. I believe in the existence of other lokas in spiritual realms and higher beings, but Advaita in certain way skips these cosmological teachings in order to focus the mind on the ultimate truth.
    I don't know who and where exactly my worship will reach (as the concept of God is really deep, like Yajvan's analogy of the iceberg), I just know I'm not different or separated from that.
    I wanna tink I'll get real answers and blessings. Not that bhakti is just a mental exercise for the weak minded, praying to fairies that don't exist.

  8. #8

    Re: Conception of God

    Quote Originally Posted by ale84 View Post
    What I don't wanna think is that all the japa I'm gonna do is just a placebo.
    I wanna know that my worship will reach the grace of a higher Intelligence, altough I'm not different from that Intelligence, but this body-mind mechanism really needs from the grace of God. I wanna tink I'll get real answers and blessings. Not that bhakti is just a mental exercise for the weak minded, praying to fairies that don't exist.
    Namaste

    You are thinking intelligently. There is nothing imaginary about Ishvar and yes, this propaganda about bhakti being a "mental exercise for the weak minded praying to non-existent fairies" is to be totally discarded and disregarded. It is a big misnomer to think that as Ishvar Himself engages in bhakti.

    I think Vishistadvaita is also necesary for Advaita. I believe in the existence of other lokas in spiritual realms and higher beings, but Advaita in certain way skips these cosmological teachings in order to focus the mind on the ultimate truth.
    Viraja's post was very timely and apt for this thread. Yes, VishiTAdvaita and achintya-bheda-abheda both play a vital role in weaving your relationship with the Lord.

    I don't know who and where exactly my worship will reach (as the concept of God is really deep, like Yajvan's analogy of the iceberg), I just know I'm not different or separated from that.
    Well, KRshNa tells you explicitly to Whom and Where your worship will reach -- all over the Bhagavad Gita (to begin with, just the BG , but also in other of His divine Gitas).

    For instance:

    ye ye yatha mAm prapadyante, tAmstathaiva bhajAmyaham... (As they surrender to Me, I reciprocate and reward them accordingly).

    I shall be back with more quotes
    Last edited by ameyAtmA; 21 September 2014 at 01:57 PM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  9. #9

    Re: Conception of God

    Quote Originally Posted by ameyAtmA View Post
    VishiTAdvaita and achintya-bheda-abheda both play a vital role in weaving your relationship with the Lord.
    Many times the devotee is found by BhagavAn when they are not aware of these philosophies. They realize instantly that this relationship was eternal, but they had forgotten about it and the kind BhagavAn revived it -- out of sheer Will.

    In that case, being attentive, open and receptive to the Lord, His messages to you is more important than trying to fit your specific case into the philosophies. If the philosophical teachings start getting too rigid for the two of You together, it is OK to let go of the rigidity and intuitively taking what really matters, and leaving the rest.


    Well, KRshNa tells you explicitly to Whom and Where your worship will reach ...
    I shall be back with more quotes
    BG 4.11 ye yatha mAm prapadyante
    tAms tathaiva bhajAmyaham
    mama vartmanuvartante
    manusyah: pArtha sarvashah:

    All of them--as they surrender unto Me--I reward accordingly. Everyone follows My path in all respects, O son of PRutha (i.e. pArtha).

    BG 9.29 samo ’haḿ sarva-bhūteṣu
    na me dveṣyo ’sti na priyaḥ
    ye bhajanti tu māḿ bhaktyā
    mayi te teṣu cāpy aham


    I envy no one, nor am I partial to anyone. I am equal to all. But whoever is devoted to Me and serves Me in devotion, is a friend, is in Me, and I am also a friend to him.

    BG 9.10 mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ
    sūyate sa-carācaram
    hetunānena kaunteya
    jagad viparivartate


    The material nature, PrakRti, manifests as all these Universes and beings by My authority, direction and sanction. Under its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again.

    ***So you see how prakRti can be the giant complex automaton that has all possible states, loops and transitions in it. This automaton cannot get its wheels rolling without Him OR it is embedded in Him.

    How does grace work? He comes to you as a person when the time is right. When you are in that state. You are given the tools and the directions. In Bhagavad Gita.

    Unfortunately, sometimes we overlook the fact the BhagavAn svayam is talking to the seeker in the Gita, and many of His subtle messages and clues go over our head. He is so gentle, so gentle, that He does not want to disturb you in your play -- house or tea-party or pirates or whatever it is. He never forces teachings on you unless you are ready.
    Last edited by ameyAtmA; 21 September 2014 at 01:43 PM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  10. #10

    Re: Conception of God

    Please read Bhagvad Gita chapter 9 -- rAjaguhya yog (the utmost secret yog which is the king of all yog).

    Also, Bhagavad Gita Chapter 12 -- bhakti yog

    Bg 12.1 — Arjuna inquired: Which are considered to be more perfect, those who are always properly engaged in Your devotional service or those who worship the impersonal Brahman, the unmanifested?
    Bg 12.2 — BhagavAn said: Those who fix their minds on My personal form and are always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith are considered by Me to be most perfect.
    Bg 12.3-4 — But those who fully worship the unmanifested, that which lies beyond the perception of the senses, the all-pervading, inconceivable, unchanging, fixed and immovable – the impersonal conception of the Absolute Truth – by controlling the various senses and being equally disposed to everyone, such persons, engaged in the welfare of all, at last achieve Me.
    Bg 12.5 — For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied.

    Then KRshNa goes on to say ---

    Stay in Me and with Me at all times. Here, He is a Person. Who reciprocates. It has to be a two-way street.
    If this (being in Me, with Me -- samAdhi, smaraNam) is not possible 24 X 7, then "abhyAsena tu kaunteya" -- with regulated practice of [the 9 limbs of ] bhakti, and/or ashTAnga yog* (yam niyam ... dhAraNA dhyAn samAdhI) you can attain Me.
    If this is still difficult, try applying the logic of jn~Ana -- seperating matter from spirit and realizing your true nature.
    If this is difficult, just perform all your duties without expectation for fruits, offering all of it to Me. This is karma-phala-tyAga - renunciation/sacrifice of the fruits of actions.

    ----
    9 limbs of bhakti - (pick any - one, many or all)
    shravaNam - hearing
    kIrtanam - chanting My holy names
    smaraNam - remembering My names, pastimes, qualities and samAdhI in & with Me
    pAda-sevanam - devotional service (to Guru, saints, mankind and to Me)
    archanam - Deity Worship
    vandanam - glorifying and adoring the Lord with prayers, bhajans (songs)
    dAsyam - devotion and love with a servant-Master relationship
    sakhyam - the Lord is your friend
    Atma-nivedanam - surrendering everything including your soul, the thin left-over ego, to Him so that "you" do not remain to flaunt yourself as a bhakta


    ashTAnga Yog - please search for threads in the forum under Yoga.
    yam - implemented discipline
    niyam - rules to follow, dos and don'ts
    prANAyAm - breath control (technique)
    pratyAhAr - abstaining from sense gratification
    dhAraNA - determination
    dhyAn - attention on the Divine, meditation
    samAdhI - the goal state - being in and with Me
    Last edited by ameyAtmA; 21 September 2014 at 01:55 PM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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