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Thread: Posting for Willie...

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    Posting for Willie - Part 1

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by willie
    Let's just take a look at the lasting power of the knowledge contained in these so called holybooks. The vedas , for all they are claimed to say , don't really say anything about reincarnation.

    Namaste Willie,

    I wanted to be sure that your post does not go un-noticed as it can open up new dialog , and discussion for others (too).
    That is, perhaps others gain perspective on the questions you have asked, & info you have stated. This is very specific to the comments on the Veda's and reincarnation. It does not address the othe points residing in your previous post found in "Dead?"

    Today is Ganga Dashara, to bestow purity in one's life. May this post in some way help me and perhaps assist others that read this post with sattva.

    More info is will always be provided upon request, yet a foundation is needed to insure that the knowledge has a home.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    Revisiting your questions and statements:
    Let me add clarity here if I may. This notion of reincarnation is clearly pointed out in the Chandogya Upanishad and is part of the Panchagni Vidya told to Svetaketu. The first question given to Svetaketu by his guru in this case a king (Pravahana Jaivali) is " Do you know where people go after they depart from this world?" Svetaketu answers, ' no I do not' - now begins the instruction.

    Perhaps you will procalim, 'yes but that is in the Upanishads'... Willie, the Upanishads are part and parcel the Vedas. As are the Brahmana's. Chandogya Upanishad is part and parcel of the Sama Ved. So the structure of the ved is Samhita, Brahmana, Aranaka and Upanishads - these are the Veda's divisions. Each serve a purpose.

    Veda means knowledge, as you know. Perhaps you are thinking of the mantra portion (samhita) of the veda's no doubt. They have a specific purpose. As do the Brahmana's (deals with Brahman, and contain the rules for employing the samhita or mantra portion of the Veda), Aranaka's (forest books) and the Upanishads ( Upa= near + ni=down+ sad= to sit, yet also 'truth).
    Reading the mantra portion is of a different method and intent. If you are reading the Rig Ved mantra portion (samhita), that portion has a specific application. The mantra portion of the veda's are MORE about sound and meter - mantra and chandas, then about the WORDs and meaning. This concept is not easily discussed and is not a entry level discussion to entertain.

    If you feel slighted by only having 6% of the Veda's available to you, there are 108 Upanishads that you can read today. Let me know and I will list them out, yet I would start with the core 10 Upanishads.

    The Fullness of the Veda's are found there, in the Upanishads, these are part and parcel, the veda's. Perhaps during a further post we can discuss the structure of the veda's yet I recommend you take a look at this post to begin with: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...31&postcount=1

    An additional point: the veda's are eternal wisdom, they are never lost. The risi's did not sit down and say , lets write a book, as if its a book of history or prayers. They cognized this wisdom within their own consciousness, in akasha. That means they did not write it, they 'seen and heard' it in their level of unbounded awareness. It cannot be lost. It only can be recalled. It can never go away , it is the fundamental structure of consciousness.
    Knowledge is structured in consciousness...this is a key fundamental principle of the veda.

    Not a simple concept to 'get' until you 'get it' from one that operates from this level of Being, and things are made clear. We do have people on this planet that is at this level of Consciousness. My angst is they are far and few between. We need more sages and enlightened beings, hence my posts for people to consider meditation - lets build 'em ourselves!

    So, I encourage you to to read some of this great work, the Upanishads, them come back with your opinions.

    All the Powers of the Universe are Already Ours,
    It is We Who Have Put Our Hands Before Our Eyes and Cry that it is Dark!
    Swami Vivekananda

    Pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 28 May 2007 at 10:53 AM. Reason: improved reading structure
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Posting for Willie...

    What I was and still am driving at is that 6% of a major work is not statistically valid enough to draw any conclusion about the entire part it came from.

    If these works, that you mentioned came from the vedas and the writers of those works did not have access to the whole set or works of the vedas , then these works have some doubt cast upon them.

    As I said before randomly pick out 6% of the old testament using some numbering system to pick out the sections you want and then read what you have selected. It will not say much of the old testament and may infact give you a completely different idea of what the old testament is saying.

    This is nothing new, for years this same agruement was applied to the old testament as the oldest copy of the old testament is written in greek. So scholars wondered if there had been changes in it, make a little at a time because of the copying and translating of it. But to the best of my knowledge it is the same work, even scholars have sat that only a few words could be translated differently but they would not change what the work was saying. And when the dead sea scrolls were found they had the same stories and the torah, mainly the first 6 or 7 books of the old testament.

    Another problem with holybooks is, if you let 3 people read it they come back with multiple ideas on what it means. Hinduism is rife with this. Every one of the first few holymen who read the vedas came back with ideas of what it meant. Then other read what they wrote and said and got different ideas so on and on it went. Now , today , there are mutually exclusive schools of though on how to worship god. Leaving one persons bad kharma as another good kharma.

    With this going on it is any wonder that hindus are looks at as not having much religion at all. If hinduism were a large city it would be dying like most cities , from the center out. As more and more people move to the edge because it is too hard to live in the center and put up with it.

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    Re: Posting for Willie...

    Namaste Willie.

    Quote Originally Posted by willie
    What I was and still am driving at is that 6% of a major work is not statistically valid enough to draw any conclusion about the entire part it came from.
    Going by the same argument, you can also say this:

    All science has discovered is (not even) 6% of what the universe has to unfold. Even this amount of discovery is fraught with vacillations and changes. But the important point is that by the application of that (less than) 6% of discoveries, science has today provided a relatively comfortable life and health, though it is materialistic.

    In the same way, even the 6% of the Vedas we have today provide us with more than enough knowledge in this age of Kali Yuga for liberation. Countless liberated gurus have arisen at various periods of time from this Vedic knowledge and guided, not just the Hindus, but the whole mankind. It would be foolish to discard whatever little gold we have mined or rather wait until all the gold is mined up.

    The bottom line is that all knowledge in the world has its source in that 6% of the Vedas we have today!

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    Re: Posting for Willie...

    Hari Om
    ~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by willie View Post
    What I was and still am driving at is that 6% of a major work is not statistically valid enough to draw any conclusion about the entire part it came from.

    If these works, that you mentioned came from the vedas and the writers of those works did not have access to the whole set or works of the vedas , then these works have some doubt cast upon them.

    As I said before randomly pick out 6% of the old testament using some numbering system to pick out the sections you want and then read what you have selected. It will not say much of the old testament and may infact give you a completely different idea of what the old testament is saying.
    Namaste Willie
    I think saidevo's point is rational and adds value. Please let me add this:

    The measuring stick you are using is for a different knowledge set.
    I will not try to convince you. This will need to be on your own terms, that the ah haa! will come to you personally and I cannot type for that period time to explain. YET let me take a stab at key fundamental point, for others may benefit from this dialog and perhaps a glimpse of this orientation may be of value to your cogitation.

    If I take infinity and cut it in half what do I get? If I take 6% of Infinity, this Bhuma, what do I get? I get wholeness. The veda is a discussion of, and in praise of this Fullness. Fullness only gives fullness. Like that.
    I respect that perhaps 6% is written down - BUT it does not start with a book orientation - it is a consciousness orientation.

    The rishi's are not writing a novel - if you miss chapt 15 you do not miss the story. They are looking at this Fullness from all different angles. There are ~ 400 rishi's of the Rk Ved ( 25 or so are woman). They're all looking at this Fullness, not writing a novel.

    Now last point: Out of all things, what is trying to be accomplished ? That we, the individual, ( remembers ) they are this Fullness, Moksha, Brahma-vit.

    So - lets look at an authority that I repect. Sri Ramachandra gives this instruction to Hanuman in the Muktika Upanishad. Hanuman asks Sri Ram, But by what means is the Kaivalya [liberation or enlightenment] kind of Moksha got ?
    Sri Ram responds:
    The Mandukya [Upanishad] is enough; if knowledge is not got from it, then study the Ten Upanishads. Getting knowledge very soon, you will reach my abode. If certainty is not got even then, study the 32 Upanishads and stop. If desiring Moksha without the body, read the 108 Upanishads.

    In this example this one Upanishad is 1/108 = 0.925% of the Upanishads that can bring Moksha when taught by the enlighted to the sisya in the right manner. This is 650% less then the 6% number you mention ( and I have read on the internet).


    Willie, the Fullness of Brahman does not take having the Veda's assembled on paper ( in one place). If you are of the opinion some are not available to us in Written Form, on paper, I agree and you are right , yet they do not require paper to exist.

    re: the Bible - I am not an expert and cannot draw any conclusions or positions, I will leave thid to others more astute then I.


    thank you for the opportunity to respond.
    Last edited by yajvan; 26 May 2007 at 10:06 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Posting for Willie...

    Namaste Willie,
    Quote Originally Posted by willie View Post
    What I was and still am driving at is that 6% of a major work is not statistically valid enough to draw any conclusion about the entire part it came from.

    If these works, that you mentioned came from the vedas and the writers of those works did not have access to the whole set or works of the vedas , then these works have some doubt cast upon them.

    As I said before randomly pick out 6% of the old testament using some numbering system to pick out the sections you want and then read what you have selected. It will not say much of the old testament and may infact give you a completely different idea of what the old testament is saying.
    Several points to consider here:

    1. Sanatana Dharma is not a religion of the book. The experiential dimension of religion is far more important in Sanatana Dharma than the written word. All the scriptures (and Sanatana Dharma undoubtedly has more scriptures than all world religions combined) are there as guides to usher us on to the right path, i.e. the path of Dharma. Surely, we speak of the Vedas as ‘revelations’, but they are better spoken as ‘realizations’ of the sages. In fact, the same realization is demanded of each of us, and it is not necessarily dependent on reading, comprehending, or availability of the Veda. So, in that sense, it matters little how much written Vedic material is available to us.

    2. I am not certain who began to popularize this theory that only 6% of the Veda is available, but I’ve heard it again and again. It is important to realize what it means when someone states that only 6% of the Veda is available. What we have truly lost is many recensions (Shakhas) of the Veda. In ancient times there were many different recensions of each Veda, each only slightly different from one another. Multiple recensions came to be because each family of Vedic priests kept and adhered to their own recension, per their own traditions. For example, we have the Yajurveda which has two branches – Shukla and Krishna. The Shukla Yajurveda has two known recensions - Madhyanadiniya and Kanva; and the Krishna Yajurveda has at least three recensions - Taittiriya, Maitriyani, and Katha. What is different between the different recensions is not the content, but the order, the interpretation and the traditional emphasis. Surely, many recensions may have been lost with time, but that does not necessarily imply that written content of any significant quantity has been lost.

    3. Another point to consider is that Veda is not strictly a book, but knowledge. We refer to Vedas as eternal not because the books have always been there, but because the knowledge contained within them always has. Veda means 'knowledge' and is derived from the term vid (to know). As such, knowledge cannot be lost. Written texts may be lost, burned or destroyed, but the knowledge contained within them can never be. If it is true that the knowledge discovered by the Sages is eternal (Sanatana), as we believe it is, then it will be rediscovered again and again by each generation.

    4. Hindu belief actually supports point 3. In the Bhagavad-Gita (IV.1-2), for example, we find that Krishna says that the knowledge imparted by Him to Arjuna was first revealed at the beginning to Vivasvan (Surya), but with time it was lost, and had to be revealed again. With the ascent and descent of the yugas, both knowledge and human capacity to grasp that knowledge waxes and wanes – this is part of traditional Hindu belief. If it is true that we have lost a lot of knowledge that was known to the ancients, then it will be 'revealed'/realized again and again by contemporary sages, and imparted to us. In fact, there are great Maharishis on this earth even today, as Yajvan has mentioned. The Veda and the Hindu idea of 'revelation' is not that it is a one-time deal, but rather a continuous stream of realizations of the great sages generation after generation. While the teachings of the sages may be imparted in the context of the given time, place and circumstance, the eternal (sanatana) principles never change.

    OM Shanti,
    A.
    Last edited by Agnideva; 26 May 2007 at 10:48 PM. Reason: clarification



  6. #6

    Re: Posting for Willie...

    Namaste,

    What I was and still am driving at is that 6% of a major work is not statistically valid enough to draw any conclusion about the entire part it came from.

    If these works, that you mentioned came from the vedas and the writers of those works did not have access to the whole set or works of the vedas , then these works have some doubt cast upon them.

    As I said before randomly pick out 6% of the old testament using some numbering system to pick out the sections you want and then read what you have selected. It will not say much of the old testament and may infact give you a completely different idea of what the old testament is saying.

    This is nothing new, for years this same agruement was applied to the old testament as the oldest copy of the old testament is written in greek. So scholars wondered if there had been changes in it, make a little at a time because of the copying and translating of it. But to the best of my knowledge it is the same work, even scholars have sat that only a few words could be translated differently but they would not change what the work was saying. And when the dead sea scrolls were found they had the same stories and the torah, mainly the first 6 or 7 books of the old testament.
    If I may interrupt ,
    I am curious as to what is relevance of the 6% of Vedas that is refered to?

    To correct a small point , the NT was originally in Greek yes, but the OT was originally in Hebrew and Aramic.
    There remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion.


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