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Thread: Saguna Brahman

  1. #11
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    Re: Saguna Brahman

    Dear friends ,
    Emotion and trust are not two different things . They are interdependent . Most of our puranas are need based . Here the need is dharma . whenever a need arises to put everything in place , to punish the wrong doer , an avathara has come . Whether it is Mahishasura mardini or Rama or krishna , or other innumerable avatharas are the outcome of the same purpose or need . It is not my imaginary STORY . It is given specifically in our puranas and other scriptures .There is nothing wrong in opting for a particular form or name .,since it amounts to the worship of almighty only . A child is taught -'A for apple ' , but much later he knows that A is not only for apple but there are many things.If a truth is emphasised ,it should not be taken as a tirade against Hinduism .To start with everyone goes for a personal deity , depending upon his guna , karma need .
    .





    same

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    Re: Saguna Brahman

    Namaste Kalicharan Tuvij ji


    1. Human embryology : kindly refer to ancient texts/ knowledge of Hindu medical practitioners, for the kind of information that you seek.
    2. Shape of universe: round?
    ________________________________________
    I did read bhagavata and being a doctor i know what has been said is not true
    Earth is said to be flat,moon is said to farther away from the sun,moon is called a self illuminating star etc? How do you counter these



    Seriously? Do I need to even reply this?
    _____________________________________________
    Yes because a lot of villagers worship stones and trees and get attached to them. So are you saying its "our" rasa and devotion that defines and shapes God? So since you said Vishnu or Shiva are worshipped in many ways that in itself negates their individuality

  3. #13
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    Re: Saguna Brahman

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by ale84 View Post
    Hello all.
    What is the concept of Ishvara in advaita vedanta?
    Are there other samsaric beings in higher realms of existence?
    Can they help us if we are devoted to them?

    Thanks.
    It is best to stay focused on the initial posts subject... it would make most sense to open a new post if you wish to change subject matter.

    iti śiva
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #14
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    Re: Saguna Brahman

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    Quote Originally Posted by saswathy View Post
    Dear friends ,
    Emotion and trust are not two different things . They are interdependent . Most of our puranas are need based . Here the need is dharma . whenever a need arises to put everything in place , to punish the wrong doer , an avathara has come . Whether it is Mahishasura mardini or Rama or krishna , or other innumerable avatharas are the outcome of the same purpose or need . It is not my imaginary STORY . It is given specifically in our puranas and other scriptures .There is nothing wrong in opting for a particular form or name .,since it amounts to the worship of almighty only . A child is taught -'A for apple ' , but much later he knows that A is not only for apple but there are many things.If a truth is emphasised ,it should not be taken as a tirade against Hinduism .To start with everyone goes for a personal deity , depending upon his guna , karma need .
    same
    emotion and trust
    I for one am slightly perplexed... maybe you can expand my vision and offer some additional framework to help me.
    I do not see how emotion and trust can be looked at as not being different. Emotions can be all over the board - fear, happiness, contentment, grief, etc. yet trust on the level emotion may be experienced as security, comfort. But to align one to the other, IMHO there is substantial poetic liberty at hand. Please help me with the apparent blind spot I am experiencing.

    when ever a need arises ...
    Whose need ? Can you expand on this just a bit more.


    to punish ?
    I see this slightly differently. I take my support from the 4th chapter of the bhāgavad gītā. We are told kṛṣṇa-jī comes time and again to protect the righteous and destroy the wicked, establishing dharma ( firmly) once again ( bhāgavad gītā 4.8) Protection 1st, destruction of negative forces, and re-establishing dharma. Punishment is not within the purview of this śloka. There are many reasons for this , but then I digress.


    iti śiva
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  5. #15
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    Re: Saguna Brahman

    Quote Originally Posted by ganeshamylord View Post
    The answer is simple. Texts focus on external organs because that is what the writers of those texts could comprehend as they had no clue about the chambers of heart or the gyri or sulci. Also I read the embryology given in srimad bhagavatam and it is not correct and doesnt coincide with the reality.
    So i think its easier for people to write books on things they cant see or prove because they might get a lot of followers who dont question their credibility in a vague hope of finding the truth. No wonder you see people fighting over forms of Vishnu or Shiva that dont exist and get over emotional which i think is not spiritual or for that matter not even real.
    God doesnt have a form and that is the truth.



    Namaste Ji,

    Agreed..I used to wonder why Bhagavatha Purana says that the embryo is bitten by worms over and over again when Amniotic fluid is practically sterile and even Meconium does not have worms!

    May be there were talking about being bitten by the worms of woes of life..could be symbolic.

    Even an early commentator of Srimad Bhagavatha Sridhara Swami quoted a verse from Pindasiddhi with reference to Fraternal(Non Indentical) twins only taking into the consideration the need of 2 spermatozoa and no mention that 2 ova are also needed.So that means Pindasiddhi is only partly right.

    So this proves that whatever written at any particular time was solely based on the expertise and understanding at that time and could be disproved at a later time when new findings contradict the older findings.


    For example it used to be a belief in Abrahamic religions that the soul enters the fetus during the 4-5th month of pregnancy and the fetus starts to kick and move hence the movement of a fetus is called quickening in medical terminology with reference to the Quick and the Dead of the Bible.

    But when one does Ultrasound of a fetus..one can see movements of an embryo which is just 8 weeks old.

    A mother does not feel this movement yet because the uterus is still small in size and does not touch the abdominal wall.

    At 4-5 months the uterus touches the abdominal wall and a mother starts to feel the movements better and all this lead to the thought that the soul only enters at 4-5 months and that makes the fetus move and kick...so with Ultrasound this has been disproved

    So one needs to keep an open mind and allow thought to evolve with new discovery and new findings...otherwise we are only going to stunt our mental capacity and become bigots.

    Just to add..I agree with you that there is no use fighting over forms of Lord Vishnu or Lord Shiva because whatever image we have in our mind is an artistic impression of mainly Raja Ravi Varma.
    Last edited by renuka; 22 July 2014 at 10:34 PM.

  6. #16

    Re: Saguna Brahman

    Quote Originally Posted by ganeshamylord View Post
    I did read bhagavata and being a doctor i know what has been said is not true
    That is why I requested you to refer ancient Hindu texts on medical practice, for the kind of information you seek. Bhagavata, or any Puranic text for that matter, utilizes in some way (simplified, mainly) the Vedic terminology which is accurate but allegorical.
    Earth is said to be flat,moon is said to farther away from the sun,moon is called a self illuminating star etc? How do you counter these
    This is a very basic fact of Hinduism that "prithvi" actually means more than "planet earth".
    Prithvi means the triple realm (of which the material universe is 1/3rd only), where we have dwellings of material beings (i.e., us), gandharva-s, kinnars, and yaksha-s.
    I, for one, dont see a dichotomy between spiritual and material knowledge. So, going with the above argument, the material universe and science is to be seen as a subset of greater knowledge of the whole prithvi loka.
    There are still other three: Om, Svah, Bhuva(n).
    If one wants to find material knowledge in Veda (or to a much simplified level in Purana-s), one has to learn (and respect) the whole language first.
    Yes because a lot of villagers worship stones and trees and get attached to them.
    So? I also get seriously attached; perhaps not the right person to ask? Even on national level, many stupid, superstitious Hindus still get fatally attached to Ram-lalla's at Ayodhya, instead of seeing through some reason and allowing a hospital there. What to do? Beter make a move away from this superstitious, Brahmanical, oppressive cult?
    So are you saying its "our" rasa and devotion that defines and shapes God?
    No, I am saying is that it is the deva-s that define the rasa and shapes.
    So since you said Vishnu or Shiva are worshipped in many ways that in itself negates their individuality
    Have you ever seen a diamond through its different facets, like, by rotating it?

    It is not by ordinary senses that we grasp reality (material reality included). What is that by which we can grasp truth? What is that axis of Meru like?
    Things to remember:

    1. Life = yajña
    2. Depth of Āstika knowledge is directly proportional
    to the richness of Sanskrit it is written in
    3. Āstika = Bhārata ("east") / Ārya ("west")
    4. Varṇa = tripartite division of Vedic polity
    5. r = c. x²
    where,
    r = realisation
    constant c = intelligence
    variable x = bhakti

  7. #17
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    Re: Saguna Brahman

    Dear Yashwanji ,
    Where emotion is absent trust would not exist . Emotions are of various hues as you rightly pointed out .But a barren field does not give any harvest .Then the next thing about need . What I mean by need is the need for peace , happiness , the general well being of the universe . When ever disruption in this takes place , whenever harmony and balance get disturbed , the supreme power comes for the rescue of the world to destroy the evil forces and restore the harmony .In fact I do believe that there are billions of universes with
    innumerable planetary set up ,and Ramayanas and mahabharathas and other puranic stories could be happening simultaneously at any given time in different spheres . All the puranas are stories of life which give out the morals ., dos and don'ts in a story form . They are like history from which we can correct our mistakes.

  8. #18
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    Re: Saguna Brahman

    Quote Originally Posted by saswathy View Post
    I do believe that there are billions of universes with
    innumerable planetary set up ,and Ramayanas and mahabharathas and other puranic stories could be happening simultaneously at any given time in different spheres ..
    Namaste Ji,

    I totally like this idea..in fact if I were a movie director I would direct a movie based on this idea..the idea of the parallel universes and Ramayan or Mahabharat happening at the same time and accidentally a portal is created and both universes meet and all characters are confused to see identical characters and and they end up fighting with each other..the War of The Clones!

    Would make a good movie...a twist to Ramayan or Mahabharat.

  9. #19
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    Re: Saguna Brahman

    Namaste ale,

    Quote Originally Posted by ale84 View Post
    Is Saguna Brahman a samsaric being?
    No.
    Is the concept of Saguna Brahman different from the concept of Ishvara?
    Saguna Brahman is Ishvara.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  10. #20

    Re: Saguna Brahman

    Namaste,
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalicharan Tuvij View Post
    In art the movement is from the concrete (corporal/ corporeal) to the abstract, and from the abstract to again concrete (divine).
    As a quick example to study, I quote this beautiful piece of writing from ShivaFan,

    What is Shiva?

    It is like the boy of 16 years old, today his Father has gone to his Grandfather far away in another village to urgently help with provsioning fire wood for the Granfather's home before a terrible winter storm is soon to arrive. The Father tells the boy, stay and watch his sister for the Mother is busy cooking and storing bread and oatmeal before the storm arrives.

    As soon as the Father is out of site around the track, the boy goes out to watch a falcon that arrived in the nearby treeline.

    The falcon flys away when the boy approaches. But he sees wiggling grubs on the moss ridden side of the lower bark of one of the trees. He watches fascinated.

    Farther off, when he looks up, there is of all things a badger! He knows a badger is nothing to play with and can even be dangerous, but a badger is hardly ever seen in the day because they come at night. Right away he scurries farther out to chase down the badger.

    The badger knows the deep and dark corners and crevices and paths deeper into the forest. The boys runs here and then there.

    The badger is lost. He looks about. He has never seen those old sycamores before.

    In fact he hasn't seen those mistletoe bunches hanging from those maples either. He takes a look closer.

    He picks a stem of mistletoe to bring back to his sister.

    But wait.

    Which way is back?

    Now stay calm. Of course, this is the way.

    About 15 minutes down the way, he realizes it isn't the way. Clouds are gathering now.

    What the?

    It's this way. No.

    Has another hour passed?

    It isn't exactly fear that describes the foreboding. Yes, but it is like, "I have let down my Father".

    Another hour. Clouds are heavy now. Well, the mind says, you really did it this time. What will it be like. The chest feels tight, this isn't just fear. What to think? What to do?

    Now the trees are pines. That means he knows he is way, way off the home turf now. The bears are here too. My God. Twilight doesn't seem far off now.

    That's when a loud crack sound of wood comes from his back right, the boy turns startled.

    There about 30 yards. A man. A strong man in tiger skin. His face is broad. His eyes like that falcon which first took the boy into the forest. The arms of this man are strong.

    Then comes His deep voice.

    "ShivaFan! Get here!".

    The feeling is beyond words.

    That is His Father. It is Shiva.
    Things to remember:

    1. Life = yajña
    2. Depth of Āstika knowledge is directly proportional
    to the richness of Sanskrit it is written in
    3. Āstika = Bhārata ("east") / Ārya ("west")
    4. Varṇa = tripartite division of Vedic polity
    5. r = c. x²
    where,
    r = realisation
    constant c = intelligence
    variable x = bhakti

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