define Self Realization and Moksha

[silence_speaks]

Friends,

There is no difference between Self Realization/Moksha. They are just two different ways of talking about the same thing.

A person who is "totally" satisfied, revels in that total completeness 24 7. That is moksha, Self Realization, Nirvana.

Self Realization is the recognition that "I am Self", where Self is totally Complete (Purna).

Moksha is pointing to it as "Freedom from incompleteness"

Its just the same.

Love!
Silence

[brahma jijnasa]

Namaste

That is what is happening here when BJ and Amey have defined Self-realisation in their own way in their posts above. If Self-realisation has to be defined as above, it is not what is understood by this term in Advaita VedAnta.

Indeed, you've made a good point.
It is very important to understand, and especially for an inexperienced newcomers to Hindu dharma that there are different traditions (sampradayas) who interpreted teachings of the scriptures, each with a point of view of their own philosophy which differ significantly.
Here at HDF I have always advocated the view of the Vaishnava traditions and especially tradition of the Gaudiya vaishnavas.
It's very important to understand that both camps Advaita as well as Vaishnava, in their explanations of the teachings of the scriptures often use exactly the same terms and phrases such as self-realization, mukti, mukta, self, Lord (God), purusha, immortality, ... etc., however they explained these concepts and terms in a completely different manner!
One has to be careful and understand when reading the posts here on HDF in the context of which philosophy (tradition) to interpret these terms, and he should be careful to distinguish their meaning. If he fails to do so, he will most likely become confused with all this.



regards

[Anirudh]

Namaste brahma jijnasa

Agreed, doubts trouble us. But if there are no doubts in this mortal life, there won't be any desire to learn from the situations and move forward.

My intent is get relieved from this cycle of birth and death in this birth. At the same time dont want to live the life of a door mat. Even to get to the state that out actions should be free from desires, we should desire.

I am with a conviction that every individual comprises of all the four Varna. And the person is expected to display those respective properties depending on the situation. MB teaches that to me.

I am still reading MB. So will have many more doubts.

Thanks for the clarification. The Nara Naaraayan view is intellectually satisfying for the moment. No one in this present lifestyle can gain the complete knowledge. Your reply is like a lamp in my path. When we travel in dark, we dont see the potholes. And when some one lights up a lamp, we see path along with potholes. And those payholes raise many more questions.

Thanks for taking time to light up the lamp in my path.

[saswathy]

Dear Anirudh ,
your intent is to get release from the cycle of births and deaths .Then you have to understand that an iota of prarabda karma does not allow you to achieve that . You have to either spend or burn the prarabda karma to reach your goal .For achieving any higher goal the path is very difficult to pass through .One has to walk through hell and fire .

[devotee]

Namaste,

your intent is to get release from the cycle of births and deaths .Then you have to understand that an iota of prarabda karma does not allow you to achieve that . You have to either spend or burn the prarabda karma to reach your goal .For achieving any higher goal the path is very difficult to pass through .One has to walk through hell and fire .

This is a very common mistake. You can never work out your Karmas, as you can't do without accruing Karma at all times. So, let's not bother over what our Karmas are. JnAna burns all Karmas to ashes. Ramana Maharishi explains this :

Some people say that Prarabdh Karma (which have started giving fruit) are still left even after attaining Self-realisation. But it is like saying that once the husband dies all wives become widow except one which keep remaining Sumangali (whose husband is alive). This is ridiculous. Once Self shines, no Karma is left.

So, go for Self-realisation without any doubts on Karma.

OM

[kallol]

Namaste,



This is a very common mistake. You can never work out your Karmas, as you can't do without accruing Karma at all times. So, let's not bother over what our Karmas are. JnAna burns all Karmas to ashes. Ramana Maharishi explains this :



So, go for Self-realisation without any doubts on Karma.

OM

Om
Namaste

By definition once fully self realised or attained moksha, there cannot be any karma left.

Gyana is the direction, bhakti is the base and karma is the steps.

[saswathy]

Dear friend,
We can't refute what Ramana maharshi says . But we are instructed by the saints that surrendering the fruits of karma to the almighty completely exhausts karma . The seeds of karma get burnt by the realisation of absolute truth which is rather difficult but surrender is easy.

[kallol]

Dear friend,
We can't refute what Ramana maharshi says . But we are instructed by the saints that surrendering the fruits of karma to the almighty completely exhausts karma . The seeds of karma get burnt by the realisation of absolute truth which is rather difficult but surrender is easy.

Om
Namaste

Hardly there is a meeting point from bhakti marg follower and advaita followers though the end results might be same. There are plenty of threads on this.

It depends on the nature of individual, which path suits them.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

regarding arjuna...

arjuna means white , clear ; made of silver; the lightning. If we dis-assemble his name we find ṛjra meaning going straightforward, moving on , quick (as horses). This aligns perfectly to courage of the warrior.

This word has its root in raj. Many recognize this word as king, or royalty and it too applies to arjuna no doubt, yet that is raja. This raj brings us to the equivalent or equal word rañj. It means to be dyed or colored , to redden , grow red , glow. Hence the association of royalty with red, and also with warrior status.

Yet we are not done as yet - rañj is to be affected or moved , be excited or glad , be charmed or delighted and also means to worship. A most appropriate word , as arjuna is delighted by and as we read worships and praises kṛṣṇa-jī in the later chapters of the bhāgavad gītā.

I have read another view of arjuna - a+rajju+na : a = 'no' + rajju is a rope + na - 'no' or 'not' . A rope is the symbol for being held, for bondage. As you add these syllables together you get no-rope-not, meaning, although he is free ( no rope), he thinks he is not (na) and is in bondage .

If one were to read the 1st verse of the 2nd chapter of the bhāgavad gītā casually , there would be little doubt that one would apply the notion of confusion to arjuna. This verse says ( from saṃjaya's words), to him thus overcome by compassion, full of sorrow, his eyes distressed and filled with tears madhusūdana(kṛṣṇa) spoke these words.

I offer the wisdom and POV of mahṛṣi mahesh yogī co-mingled with my POV (any errors can only be attributable to me). Mahṛṣi suggests that Arjuna's heart is full of compassion. If that is true, then full of sorrow does not apply to the heart but to the mind and how Arjuna sees the situation.

There is the two extremes - the mind with distraught and the heart filled with compassion suggests a person fully engaged in the moment. This says mahṛṣi does not suggest weakness or confusion.
Saṃjaya says his eyes filled with tears . Mahṛṣi suggests that if arjuna was dis-engaged, confused, or weak then Arjuna's eyes would have been vacant, distant; yet they showed he was engaged with the situation and knew the gravity thereof, albeit filled in tears. mahṛṣi also suggests that the distress seen in arjuna's eyes is that of great
concern and shows mental alertness - not imbalance.

From my point of view, if arjuna was in fact 'confused' or imbalanced, he could not have clearly articulated the last 21 verses that succinctly describe humanity's issues/problems that could occur to an individual. From where comes this clarity of thinking if arjuna was not balanced?

So what is the real state of Arjuna then? It's how to reconcile the compassion of the heart and the requirements of the mind , of duty and what needs to be done - both are tugging at arjuna. There is the struggle - how to fulfill contradictory aspirations - of duty and of compassion.

Mahṛṣi suggests that there is a condition of suspension (between heart and mind) that is occurring and it's of great value. He also says that this suspension is a worthy place to begin teaching a student. He also says this condition was influenced/produced by the very first words (and the only words of chapt 1) Kṛṣṇa offers to Arjuna:
Pārtha¹! Behold these kuru-s gathered together. We will leave the wisdom of these words to another time, but it needed to be pointed out.

So, yes I agree there is the struggle within arjuna - how to fulfill contradictory aspirations of hear and mind. Yet I entertain the possibility that Arjuna's behavior is above weakness and a confused state.

What assists me with this notion? The first words of kṛṣṇa to arjuna in Chapter 2. He does not appeal to Arjuna's heart to console him, but directly address his intellect and mind by saying, Whence has this blemish, alien ( or foreign) to honorable men, causing disgrace and opposed to heaven come upon you arjuna at this untimely hour?

If a person is imbalanced, confused, weak I am of the opinion that no words will yield any effective results as the mind will not be able to digest them in such an imbalanced state. Hence it is my POV that kṛṣṇa would have addressed arjuna differently if that mind was not ready to comprehend the question of blemish, honor & disgrace.

praṇām
words & references
· partha - pārthiva , a prince , king , yet also the son of pritha; It is used here as the Pandavas's mother, Kunti, maiden name was Pritha.
· Mahṛṣi Majesh Yogī on the Bhāgavad gītā , A New Translation and Commentary, Chapters 1 to 6. Published by Penguin Books, 1969

[Anirudh]

Namaste Yajvan ji


how to fulfill contradictory aspirations - of duty and of
compassion.


I am able to understand the explanation you gave WITH the help of movie and screen.
By no means, will relate myself with even the foot dust of the saints who gave us the wisdom like Advaita, Dvaita and V'Advaita.

However compelled to say, We all undergo Arjuna moment from time to time.

My vocabulary is poor pardon me.
I define it in the following way.

A distressing moment when heart is not ready to listen to intellect and intellect not ready to pamper Ankara (anger,ego etc). Right hen one may wish to utter 1000's of slokams but none will come out of the mouth.

Only resort at that situation is Sreeman Naaraayan's lotus feet. Just a Saranaagathi, without even contemplating, whether the act will assist us or not. No Karmic effect will scorn us.

Then the body and intellect swells with an unflinching faith on Sreeman Naaraayan to see through the trouble.

Learned men in the forum might not agree with me, but according to me that state is called Self realization or God realized etc etc...

It is like a spiral (software architects may understand better) moving from one quarter to another continuously; evolving continuously; entering in to same quarter again but in a evolved plane; at some pointq exit the cycle because the product is ready to join the lotus feet of Sreeman Naaraayan