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Thread: Does science have all answers?

  1. #101

    Re: Does science have all answers?

    Namaste Nirotu,

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    Those who hold on to belief that Karma and reincarnation as an inevitable path for salvation are really undermining the power of grace! You see, we are bogged down with our karma when in fact the divine grace that has the power to destroy it all. The power of grace can dispel the darkness of soul. Once the divine grace is bestowed upon you, there is no reincarnation. It would be foolish on our part to think that grace becomes effective only after millions of incarnations! The grace is effective any time you avail it. The grace that you attain is no different than the what sages were bestowed with. Grace is universal, Omnipotent.
    Those who say this undermine the purpose of creation and are ignorant of divine laws and their own association with the divinity. Karma is not an inevitable path, but one cannot progress to the level of grace without being a Karma Yogi. First, try to be a good Karma Yogi, and then we will talk about grace. First try to do things in your life without any expectation. Grace can come later. Be a man first, then we will talk about God.

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    The ignorance of this knowledge has put us in this belief that we have to do karma on our own. If we are to be bound by laws of “cause” and “effect” that cycles us through millions of reincarnations, you have, in effect, made no room for God’s redemption, forgiveness to play any role. In that case, God is presented as a mere spectator, an impotent god, without power to intervene.
    When you give more power to karma, you are making the whole journey lot harder when in fact, you have the opportunity to flow with grace by swimming in the currents of grac
    I agree with you that in our spiritual progress, disciplines we adopt are very important. The grace does not free Man from his responsibility. However, I see the paths that you allude here are gifts of God through grace. God's power of revealment, “Anugraha Shakti”, is necessary to follow these paths.Grace is enabling power sufficient for progression through these paths. Therefore, I believe, that you don’t follow path of Jnana, Bhakti, karma etc in order to attract attention of God, but instead, these processes are natural outcome of His grace upon all. It is not that you need to do but you feel you want to do. Besides, very act of pursuing these paths shows "I am the doer".
    Those cults that put grace at the helm without any element of jnana in them are the lowest stage of spirituality. These cults are responsible for all religeous strife in the world, and mere dogmas and superstitions.

    Those that emphasise good works come next.
    Those that encourage good works without expectation of fruits come next.
    Those that encourage Bhakti and Jnana come next.
    Those that encourage grace, surrender and jnana are the pinnacle.
    True Spirituality transcends all these, and is the final abidance in the self, the grace itself. You dont need grace there, but you are the grace itself. Grace is Shiva, your very self. Why do you seek something that you are?

    All religions that that put blind faith and grace above others are the worst religions and are responsible for the religeous killings, bigotry, sectarianism and dogmas - Islam and Christianity. There are no people following the path of Jnana who would be a bit sectarian, a bit dogmatic, a bit superstitious.

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    Some one said it best:
    Quote:
    "The mature soul finds himself surrounded by grace and recognizes all of God's actions as grace. Such a person always realizes his very love of God, the power to meditate or worship, and the spiritual urge which drives his life are entirely and obviously God's grace, a divine endowment, unrelated to any deed or action he did or could perform.”
    The mature soul refers to a Jnani, not one who claims that his God is the mightiest or that he has some special recipe for immortality without evidence, or uses some circular logic to prove himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    Finally, with all due respect, I do not agree with your characterization that Christianity as a subset of Hindu Dharma. If it were so, the nature and scope of Jesus and His teaching would have been entirely different.
    Jesus is a vedantin who realized first that he is the son of God and then knew he was one with the father. You also do that. As long as you dont do that, it is only a subset.

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    Here is a quote from another Vedantic Scholar (lost his name):
    Even the Vedas, which are the ultimate scriptural authority of Sanatana Dharma (Hinduism), reiterate that it is not possible to fathom the nature and glory of the Supreme Being, the reason being that He is beyond the ken of the human senses and the mind. It is only by His grace that one can transcend His Maya (the divine power which obscures) and experience His divine nature. Hence, the Almighty who is transcendent makes Himself accessible to His devotees out of His compassion. This is a paradox spiritual seekers confront during their quest and devotion is the key to resolve
    This is talking of the transition from Prakriti to Purusha stage which is impossible without grace, First identify the Prakriti and its subtleties. It is not just your body. First identify the Ravana within you with the help of your Hanuman. Rama will kill him then. Without finding that Ravana, , without the help of Hanuman, no chance of getting crowned at Ayodhya. You follow me?

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    Here, even the “I” that is wanting grace seems to want to be in control! This “I” demanding - let grace do the work, itself shows the arrogance of “I”. Such thoughts must vanish. Until the “I” becomes childlike as Jesus Christ says, it will be difficult to enter the kingdom of heaven. At any level – sub-conscious, un-conscious, super-conscious or at all-conscious levels the “I” with all karmic weight must become humble (almost devoid of I-ness) to hold the finger of grace to enter the kingdom of heaven.
    For that you have to know what the kingdom of the heaven is. Mere statements are idle talk.

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    The greatest downfall of many self-proclaimed, self-realized gurus (Rajneesh come to my mind) is their premature I-thought proclaiming the knowledge. The “I” had not vanished yet but sustaining I-sense through it.
    The greatest downfall of many self proclaimed, self realized gurus( Jesus came to my mind) was that they were even unable to save themselves in danger. How will they save others?

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    In Saiva Siddhanta, it is grace that awakens the love of God within the devotee, softens the intellect and inaugurates the quest for Self Realization. It descends when the soul has reached a certain level of maturity, and often comes in the form of a spiritualinitiation, called shaktipata, from a satguru.
    What is reaching a certainly level of maturity? Have you wondered or simply copy pasted? It refers to the purification of Buddhi. Christianity does not cross the level of mind, so you cant be expected to know further.

    Oh, Shaiva Siddhanta , I know that. I know Shiva and his grace. No recommendations I need from any saviours.


    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    On the contrary, a Christian would only surrender to the will of the father. Misery is considered an opportunity to improve self to come closer to God.
    What did you surrender? Your body? Your pleasures? Your home? But these were never yours to start with.You surrendered them to the rightful owner and deserve no credits. The only true surrender is the surrender of the frewwill, the "I" and "mine". You own nothing else, they all belong to God.

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    On the contrary, a Christian would only surrender to the will of the father. Misery is considered an opportunity to improve self to come closer to God.

    Christianity does the same thing. A faith without works is meaningless. But the clear distinction is made as to work or faith leading to salvation. It is the faith and faith alone that leads to salvation and not the works. The good work or karma that is performed is a logical outworking of inner faith. Faith is not a random act of will but an act of rational choice by which one interprets the experience. It truly is an assent of intellect.
    Yes, perfect Advaita: I like what you said.


    "It is the faith and faith alone that leads to salvation and not the works".

    Just replace blind faith with true faith which is Jnana and you are an advaitin. Advaita does not beleive in works.

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    Christianity is criticized for its tendency to locate heaven as some physical plane in the Universe. Without relative notion of place it is not possible to locate. The fault may lie more with our interpretation than the Christian truth.
    But HInduism has many heavens in the spatio temporal heavens which Jesus did not know about. There is an eternal heaven, the world of Parabrahman. There is something beyond that, which is beyond any notion of distinction.

    Jesus did not know any of these, as they are not found in the bible.
    So Christian heaven is just Yama Loka, where Yama judges peeople either to heaven or hell. THis you cant deny. The eternal heavens are not related to judgement day.

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    In a sense, when Jesus says that the “kingdom of Heaven is within you”, must mean entirely different that what has been misrepresented by many.
    Jesus said it correctly. The kingdom within you is the Atman. Find it. NO point searching in the sky. Jesus(Yama) teachings can be found in Katha Upanishad and we respect him a lot.

  2. #102
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    Re: Does science have all answers?

    Let's see if this makes sense again...

    According to Christianity god creates the world and man gives the man free will. man uses that free will and eats from the tree of knowledge...god gets angry and says you shall sweat thro your brow and thorws him on earth...then millions of years later one day god decides what the heck, I will just send my son to save these idiots on earth. god's son comes makes some miracles, walks on water (which is absurd in itself!), makes wine out of water...then allows a brutal murder of himself then resurrects himself and then? What happens afrer he rose from the dead???? I assume he flew away to the heaven to sit beside god's throne (or perhaps stand, not sure).

    Now an analysis:
    1. how did god 'create' the world? what was there before world existed? where did he get the mateial to build this world?

    2. free will - if it is truly free will why must I follow this god? why can i not use my free will? giving me free will and then leaving me no choice but to use it according to his own will is not free will at all. bugus.

    3. man created a mess of the world why not stop creating more souls? if god is omni everything that follows that he must have some sort of logic. if there is a bit of logic left in this god he would stop the bleeding and stop creating more souls. but he doesn't. so what I am to conclude? he must be tyrant god then.

    4. why wait until only 2000 years ago to send your son to save this world? what about the people who were born 3000 years ago?

    5. as an indian I can understand that the son came down here to clean up his father's mess but a logical son would have advised his father to stop the bleeding and close the soul factory.

    6. walking on water is absurd! it doesn't do any thing for a man. It doesn't transform a man into a better man. why walk on water when we can perfectly wallk on earth?

    7. why make wine out of water? water is good for the body!

    8. why allow a brutal murder of yourself and why cry, "father, why have you forsaken me" if you are a son of god the you would know that the father has not forsaken me ...it is all divine plan of my father...what does the murder of my body accomplish?

    9. what the heck to do after you get up from the dead? if you can get up after being dead then you were not really dead to begin with. if are now up after being dead...what to do now? bless a couple of followers and take off flying in the sky?

    What logic!

    Amazing

    A note on karma and reinarnation - Christians must deny karma and renincarnation at any cost. They have no choice but to deny it. They can not accept it as accepting it will make god's son look like a fool. So no matter how many children are born in the world that can speak different languages, can remember their past lives, can recite the gita or other scriptures and books without ever learning a word of sanskrit, can play music without ever first learning a note in this life...no matter how many thousands of cases like these happen...a christian has to drop all logic and say, "I think they are possesed by the devil". Amazing!

    Seems to me that man's will is in fact becoming stronger by the day as more and more people are shunning 'any' type of religion and thus any type of God! But not to worry our loving christian god has a fire pit waiting for those.

    Come to think of it, I don't mind sitting in the fire pit and burning in pain along side gautama sidharta, perhaps meditation will take another level in that pain.
    Last edited by satay; 06 September 2006 at 10:26 AM.
    satay

  3. #103
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    Re: Does science have all answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudarshan
    What was Jesus doing in his missing years?
    Isa mashia was in the north learning from some buddhist monks. His name can be found in a buddhist monastary up in the north...

    so much for 'western historic' records.
    satay

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    Re: Again We Go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudarshan
    Nirotu has to first understand Hinduism first

    Nirotu's dumb form of grace cannot explain the vast differences we see in the world.
    namaste sudarshan!

    Let's try to focus on the philosophical issues instead of the person. I am sending you a pm.
    satay

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    Re: Does science have all answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by satay
    then millions of years later one day god decides what the heck, I will just send my son to save these idiots on earth
    Millions of years is a bit too cruel, but many of our christian brothers say it was only 4000 years, and believe that it was created around B.C 4000. And you should also keep in mind that he also send other messengers who were not his sons. In my opinion, he could have sent the son in B.C 3999.


    Quote Originally Posted by satay
    A note on karma and reinarnation - Christians must deny karma and renincarnation at any cost. They have no choice but to deny it. They can not accept it as accepting it will make god's son look like a fool. So no matter how many children are born in the world that can speak different languages, can remember their past lives, can recite the gita or other scriptures and books without ever learning a word of sanskrit, can play music without ever first learning a note in this life...no matter how many thousands of cases like these happen...a christian has to drop all logic and say, "I think they are possesed by the devil". Amazing!
    Actually I met a christian woman on another site, who told me she was a devout christian, but still beleived in reincarnations and all that and shared many "pagan" beleifs due to personal experience... She was previously a member on a forum( not related to religion) on which I was/am an Administrator, where I have good freindship with many Christians. So I have come across many Christians all over the world like this, and I cant help respecting and adoring some of them. However, the missionary attitude is always nauseus to me, putting down and judging others, and making fun of our religion. I was unhappy with nirotu only because called my Acharya as ignorant and said no use in surrendering to him like he did with Jesus, who was way beyond others. Later I apologized to him. I brought to his attention that Ramanuja is considered an incarnation of Adisesha, which he remarked to be hearsay. Then Jesus claims must also be hearsay. You cannot have me beleive you, without you beleiving me in the first place. Showing the bible book for proof means nothing, I could show other books from my side. It is either mutual belief or rejection, it cannot be oneway.

    If you are interested you can visit this site ( of this woman):
    http://www.sacred-connections.us/main.htm

    Her exact words to me: ( over which I was excpetionally happy!)

    Hi ,

    I sooo don't follow Paganism or whatever that's all called. I am a Christian through and through. I do know that most don't agree with psychic / medium, etc however I don't let that bother me. I know what I know and I let it be. I don't ignore what I do so if someone asks me I'll tell them it's true, however, I still go to church with my family and interact in my church. My husband works at our church since he is one of the Pastor's. However, I don't agree with them that psychics and mediums are evil. Because they aren't (most...lol) They do somewhat the church does and that's communicate with the spirit world, they just say they communicate with God himself, I consider myself communicating with his helpers. I do want that conveyed in my website somewhere as well shouldn't I. I don't want people to think that just because I do what I do that I don't believe in God and what he did for us by his son.
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

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    Re: Does science have all answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudarshan
    Actually I met a christian woman on another site, who told me she was a devout christian, but still beleived in reincarnations ...

    So I have come across many Christians all over the world like this, and I cant help respecting and adoring some of them.
    hmm...now that you mentioned, it occured to me that my own wife is a devout christian with similar beliefs!!! but as arumna told us on CF 'she is not a good christian then'

  7. #107
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    Re: Does science have all answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by satay
    hmm...now that you mentioned, it occured to me that my own wife is a devout christian with similar beliefs!!! but as arumna told us on CF 'she is not a good christian then'
    You are right. Christians judge others too much. On one hand, they will say that a mere beleif in Jesus and nothing else matters, but at the same time they will keep judging and passing hell sentances on their own kind just because they were 'heretics'. No two people in the world beleive alike -- if we start considering others as heretics because they did not share your beleifs, then everyone in the world must be a heretic relative to the other. The Lord must be having a lot of fun with his creation, I assure you. Without knowing his true nature and his nature beyond earthly attachments, some of them portray him as a tyrant - he must be , so to speak. All his leela, let us enjoy it, while we are given a birth to appreciate that.
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

  8. #108

    Re: We resolve

    Dear Atanu:

    Quote Originally Posted by Atanu Banerjee
    It is however, hard to agree when you say that we have undermined the grace. It is most pre-posterous thing I have heard. Who can ever undermine the grace?

    Let me put it this way. I am not saying you have underestimated grace, but surely you have overestimated the power of knowledge. You have placed “jnana” before “grace” without elaborating how you acquired the “jnana” to begin with.


    Quote Originally Posted by Atanu Banerjee
    But What will you surrender and to whom, if you do not know the self?
    All I know is that you know self by Jnana but you have “jnana” as a benevolent gift of providential God through His divine grace!

    Quote Originally Posted by Atanu Banerjee
    Even for surrendering, “jnana” is required that the ego is not yours. It is the I exist awareness emanating from all pervading consciousness itself.
    From a realistic point of view such a “jnana” goes hand in hand with ego. Moment you think you have “jnana”, the strength of “I” has already taken hold of you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Atanu Banerjee
    Nirotu's problem (and Atanu's also) is that we believe that "Nirotu is -- a different entity from "Atanu is".

    If Nirotu is distinct from Atanu, how do they arrive at that assertion? They had to have jnana to discern or realize the truth. Am I right? The question I have been asking and you have been evading is how can a muddled mind attain this knowledge or come to realize this truth? And so, that starting point, which is what I have been addressing.

    Again I reiterate, I am not saying you have underestimated grace but surely, you have overestimated the power of knowledge. Other than that, we have no disagreement at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Atanu Banerjee
    Best wishes. (Note: I am not God that I can bless you).

    Truly, the word “blessing” is written as a short form to imply “May the blessings of God be upon you”. I hope you don’t mind me praying for you and likewise I want everyone to pray for me also.

    Quote Originally Posted by Atanu Banerjee
    The mind on account of forgetfullness (and conceit perhaps) has appropriated and localised the ego.
    Quote Originally Posted by Atanu Banerjee

    And our religion says: Forgetfullness is death.

    Yes, the forgetful ego-mind can never remember or attain knowledge and therefore, only thing it can do is to hold the hand of grace. Only grace can lead you to surrender is what Christianity teaches.

    So we come back again to our original point. Just like a child who does not need to understand her mother but only have that instinctive recognition is exactly what muddled mind needs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Atanu Banerjee
    We must keep building on the agreements.

    I am game for that!


    Blessings,

  9. #109

    Re: Does science have all answers?

    Dear Truthseeker:

    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker

    Those who say this undermine the purpose of creation and are ignorant of divine laws and their own association with the divinity. Karma is not an inevitable path, but one cannot progress to the level of grace without being a Karma Yogi. First, try to be a good Karma Yogi, and then we will talk about grace. First try to do things in your life without any expectation. Grace can come later. Be a man first, then we will talk about God.
    It is very interesting that you suggest this. Let us look at this from a realistic and a practical point. Take for example, a person who is down to his lowest state of life (highest point of misery), say from his evil karma from his previous life. Do you then consider, for that person, asking him to be a good karma-yogi first would bring any consolation? Any social worker will tell you that people touched by poverty, crime and violence do not adopt a noble resignation to their fate. In fact they will react with indignation or rebellion and in turn accumulate more bad karma. What kind of justice is this that starts more problems than it solves?

    I would, instead, ask for God’s forgiveness and grace to deal with adversities.

    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker
    Those cults that put grace at the helm without any element of jnana in them are the lowest stage of spirituality. These cults are responsible for all religeous strife in the world, and mere dogmas and superstitions.
    Please, do not bring cultic talk as it is not the context of this topic. We are talking about child like surrender that sages have shown time to time.
    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker
    All religions that that put blind faith and grace above others are the worst religions and are responsible for the religeous killings, bigotry, sectarianism and dogmas - Islam and Christianity. There are no people following the path of Jnana who would be a bit sectarian, a bit dogmatic, a bit superstitious.
    I am sorry that you misunderstand my post. Who says one has blind faith? A child like faith is not a blind faith – it is an instinctive recognition of her/his mother. Did the child need to analyse/understand that first? No! That alone will humble the “I”.
    The moment you bring in “jnana”, you bring the function of rational mind, which means surrender is still incomplete! It is shear arrogance to think that this “I” can do anything other than surrender!

    In that sense faith is an assent of the intellect because faith precedes and knowledge follows. Our intellectual growth or assimilation of knowledge (Jnana) is a direct gift of God, due to our faith, a benevolent endowment from His grace! Grace and forgiveness must precede anything one attempts to do on his own!

    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker
    The mature soul refers to a Jnani, not one who claims that his God is the mightiest or that he has some special recipe for immortality without evidence, or uses some circular logic to prove himself.
    Well said. I would also add; when one is “Jnani” there is nothing to add. However, the point I am addressing is- how did the muddled mind become Jnani in the first place? Jnani absolutely needed that grace in order to become “jnani”.

    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker
    This is talking of the transition from Prakriti to Purusha stage which is impossible without grace, First identify the Prakriti and its subtleties. It is not just your body. First identify the Ravana within you with the help of your Hanuman. Rama will kill him then. Without finding that Ravana, , without the help of Hanuman, no chance of getting crowned at Ayodhya. You follow me?
    Let me use your beautiful example to clarify my point: Here I do see: Rama – Highest self, Ravana – Ego turned outward lost in senses, Golden deer – Maya, Seeta – forgetfulness of ego, ignorance or muddled mind and finally Hanuman – pure grace!

    In Ayodhya, when Seeta was trapped, Rama (the higher self) could not come immediately. Seeta needed Hanuman to bring the ring (grace) to her, which muddled mind of Seeta saw through her tears. It was that grace that brought her back to Rama! How did Seeta get to Rama? Through Hanuman (grace).

    Simply put, every action we take involves the grace of God! Even to identify the demons within you, you need the hand of grace! Those who are advanced in their pursuit of God through various paths are truly the beneficiaries of God’s providential gift of grace.

    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker
    For that you have to know what the kingdom of the heaven is. Mere statements are idle talk.
    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker
    Jesus said it correctly. The kingdom within you is the Atman. Find it. NO point searching in the sky. Jesus(Yama) teachings can be found in Katha Upanishad and we respect him a lot.
    Kingdom of Heaven: This is how I understand its meaning.
    “The kingdom of heaven” is the kingdom of God-consciousness. You may call it a state of eternal bliss. They refer to the same. Firstly, all these activities that you perform (Karma-yoga, Raja-yoga, Bhakti-yoga) are means to an end and not end in themselves. Secondly, I see that only gifted person can truly achieve these paths. If you accept the premise that the gift has to be providential endowment of God, then the necessary first step would be to be accepted by God. When Jesus makes a statement that you have to be child like to be accepted, to be endowed, with these gifts, which ultimately lead you to the kingdom of God, is exactly the approach He is describing to attract divine mercy.

    I do not deny in various paths that you allude to. However, I also see, people surrendering to the will of God with humbleness and sincerity can also create the good karma by which they are justified to receive the same purifying vibrations of God! The humility is emphasized in attracting divine mercy and not necessarily prior Jnana.

    The kingdom is within you- refers to having Christ rule over your heart. In technical terms, Kingdom refers to province ruled by a king. Those who live in are the subjects of king. Christ is portrayed as King in scriptures. Thus, when you have Christ in you, you are in tune with Christ consciousness by being His loyal subject, which leads you to God-consciousness. Thus, the saying of Jesus; kingdom is within you, when you have me.

    While I do not disagree with anything you say in general, the approach to liberate ourselves is quite different in these religions. While Hinduism may put entire thrust on the “doer”, in Christianity God sees utter helpless state man is in and wants to help purely out of love towards us.

    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker
    The greatest downfall of many self proclaimed, self realized gurus (Jesus came to my mind) was that they were even unable to save themselves in danger. How will they save others?
    Firstly,in these exchanges we should not mix religion with spirituality. I should remind myself not to do that. I was merely referring to those who had a sort of downfall. There are many examples in Christianity that I could have named. It was just a coincidence that I named Rajneesh. Rajneesh should be given credit for standing up against the dogmatic views and ignorance presented in Christianity but he never denigrated Christ himself.

    Secondly, I am sorry you feel that way. You have not really understood the meaning of His prophesized death, resurrection and what it means to mankind. Whether you could save yourself or not is not our point. Someone who could rise from death could also have saved himself. Jesus used His death on the cross as an example to show mankind the meaning of true compassion for putting him on the cross. Jesus felt the muddled mass was suffering a lot more in their ignorance than His own body on the cross.That is when He said, “ Father, forgive them, they know not what they are doing!”

    Thirdly, Jesus always put the father before him. For Him it was always the” wil”l of the Father. He was untouched by “I”. It is the purest of soul that could have incarnated!


    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker
    What did you surrender? Your body? Your pleasures? Your home? But these were never yours to start with.You surrendered them to the rightful owner and deserve no credits. The only true surrender is the surrender of the frewwill, the "I" and "mine". You own nothing else, they all belong to God.
    Yes, I agree with the surrender of “I” but not “free-will”. There is gross difference between free-will as you interpret and the way the Bible believes. God created man/woman with volition. One thing that God will not violate is the free-will. God wants you to love him out of your choice and not be compelled to do so. If He did so out of force without offering a choice, that love is coerced and not from your conscious choice. Why would God want you to abandon that free-will, I do not understand!

    Blessings,

  10. #110

    Re: Does science have all answers?

    Hi nirotu,

    Thanks for being patient. I think you certainly have some of the qualities of Christ. I think some Hindus here have chosen to attack you out of some personal agendas and I suggest you not to take these people seriously.

    Nevertheless, when bringing up the topic of Hinduism, you have to bring in avatars like Krishna and Rama, or some of the well known names like Shankara or Ramanuja, and not controversial names like Osho, which looks more like a mischief rather than a discussion. Even these two people did not agree on all issues, which are reconcilable from advatin point of view, but not necessarily from Ramanuja's view. Similarly, Christianity's differences from Hinduism are easily reconcilable from the point of view of Hinduism, but not from the other side. That is why, I consider it rather futile to talk with the "other" side.

    If you talk to all Hindus, you will find that many oppose the ideas ofAdvaita, and some call it a cult too, some as poison, some as demonic etc. Advaitins are not usually bothered with this, and either dismissed as statements made in ignorance or as the will of God. The reason simply is that even though advaita holds the scripture as the highest authority, it had the guts to call it as secondary knowledge, while the primary and true knowledge is that of the Atman, untainted and direct. Definitely Christianity's philosophy is not the same as Advaita, as you beleive in an external God and consider yourself as a servant who has to implicitly obey this creator failing which he would be thrown into a fire pit. Thus grace has become such a prominent thing in Christianity. Advaita does not consider God as external to you, but every aspect of God is right withinyou, and you only have to know that. The grace concept is almost meaningless in Advaita, and it is like searching for fire when you have two flint stones in your hands. Just strike the stones, why are you searching it in something external to you? Christianity grace is mixed with fear and not pure love. The same thing has been said by Madusudhana Saraswati, who wrote in his Advaita Siddhi that Dualism leads to fear of God, and fear being a coloring of the mind cannot lead to liberation. God cannot be portrayed as a fearful entity at all - he is supposed to be all loving isn't it?



    Thus your ideas of man being intrinsically sinful, and needing something exteral to him to redeem on that sin, is only a pheneomenal truth or a false claim. Natrually we consider your version as a subset or a wrong doctrine.

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    It is very interesting that you suggest this. Let us look at this from a realistic and a practical point. Take for example, a person who is down to his lowest state of life (highest point of misery), say from his evil karma from his previous life. Do you then consider, for that person, asking him to be a good karma-yogi first would bring any consolation? Any social worker will tell you that people touched by poverty, crime and violence do not adopt a noble resignation to their fate. In fact they will react with indignation or rebellion and in turn accumulate more bad karma. What kind of justice is this that starts more problems than it solves?
    I would, instead, ask for God’s forgiveness and grace to deal with adversities.
    Yes, the lowliest sinner has to purify himself by repenting, reforming himself completely before even surendering to God. "Oh Lord, remove all my sins while I go and take rest and sleep", would not be vedanta. Otherwise, one could reprent and go to sleep for 50 years and be free from sin. Rip vanwinkle would be guaranteed salvation had be repented prior to his sleep, because he never sinned?

    If you are purified enough, divinity will automatically descend on you. If it happens to an apprently outward sinner, it is only the result of such purification achieved in a former birth, and not by chance. If God picks people by draw of lots, that leads to partiality. If one person is a thief and another a devoted person, and if the thief had a vision of God while the devotee died without that, isn't it obvious the thief was a purified soul in a former birth, and it was only by some prArabdha that he became a thief?

    So Self purification by repentance, by doing good works, doing works selflessly, and then by an unflinching love and finally searching for God alone will reveal God. All these take many lives, and if you find it easily it means most of it had been done in a former birth, Sage Ramana did not need any guru and took only seven days at Arunachala to attain self realization. He himself stated that he had realized his Self in a previous birth, but was born just because his seeds of Karma were not fully burnt. So he was born as a natural sage and needed no guru or any initiation. All these had been completed well before he was born, just a few seeds in the subconscious remained.

    I would say that Christianity address only the first point, repentance and stops there. There is no concept of Yoga in Christianity. Jesus himself was a Yogi but he preached it to very few people because most people are not yet ready. So the message is contained in the bible subtly, and is not open for others. (and you have not grasped yet!)

    I would say that Gnostic Christianity is in tune with vedanta - it is indeed a perfect Dharmic way. What is your view on it?

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    Please, do not bring cultic talk as it is not the context of this topic. We are talking about child like surrender that sages have shown time to time.
    Major Definitions for Cult:

    1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
    2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers:
    3. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
    4. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.

    Isn't Christianity one such?

    Child like definition surrender is not a cult, but if the surrender insist on specific symbols, it is a cult. Child like surrender is not possible for most people, it is only possible for sages. Are you one? If not, would your Godthrown you into hell?

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    I am sorry that you misunderstand my post. Who says one has blind faith? A child like faith is not a blind faith – it is an instinctive recognition of her/his mother. Did the child need to analyse/understand that first? No! That alone will humble the “I”.
    The moment you bring in “jnana”, you bring the function of rational mind, which means surrender is still incomplete! It is shear arrogance to think that this “I” can do anything other than surrender!
    Blind faith is faith based on unverified claims. Rational faith is one based on verified claims. Blind Faith is the starting point of the journey, and it should culimate in Rational Faith. That is vedanta, for which Christianity is a starter kit. In Jnana, there is no "rational mind" because it is a concept beyond mind. Infact, the Jnana you are talking about is about blind faith (text book Jnana)

    To truly surrender to God, you need to know who God is, who you are, and how you are related. Otherwise it is blind faith surrender. Dont take me wrong, but these are just facts, which would be grasped by all members of the Eastern traditions. Have you seen God? Have you verified the existance of God? If not, the beleif is blind faith regardless of however sagely one may be.

    In Advaita, one can see Saguna Brahman in many ways and forms, and can be verified. But ultimate Godhead cannot be seen in any imaginable way. No human words exist for such experience. Even when jivanmuktas talk about God, they can talk only about this personal aspect of God. From the conciosuness of the absolute, no such talking is possible. That is why, even when Advaitins talk about God, they talk about love, surrender etc. True godhead cannot be described in words or in a book.

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    Let me use your beautiful example to clarify my point: Here I do see: Rama – Highest self, Ravana – Ego turned outward lost in senses, Golden deer – Maya, Seeta – forgetfulness of ego, ignorance or muddled mind and finally Hanuman – pure grace!
    In Ayodhya, when Seeta was trapped, Rama (the higher self) could not come immediately. Seeta needed Hanuman to bring the ring (grace) to her, which muddled mind of Seeta saw through her tears. It was that grace that brought her back to Rama! How did Seeta get to Rama? Through Hanuman (grace).
    Simply put, every action we take involves the grace of God! Even to identify the demons within you, you need the hand of grace! Those who are advanced in their pursuit of God through various paths are truly the beneficiaries of God’s providential gift of grace.
    That Ravana is not the ego you are talking about(not nirotu). He is situated in the Trikuta Lanka, the city situated on the three peaked Hill - that is Ahamkara with its three guNas. It is not quite easy to reach there. You have to go to Dandaka forest, then Panchavati, kill the demons Khara and others, and force Ravana to snatch away your Sita. Then proceed towards Kishkinda, and made friendship with Sugriva and kill Vali. Then you have to search for Sita, then Hanuman has to jump over the ocean
    and find that Ravana. All this is not possibe by blindly beleiving in some things - by blindly believing that somebody has done all this for you in advance. If you understand all these technically, you will know that Rama is the Turiya consciousness, and he is born only in samAdhi.

    So killing Ravana is possible only if you reach that high stage of samAdhi. All of Ramayana belongs to the plane of samAdhi, and nothing to do with devotion or external worship or beleifs. A few times, such Turiya samAdhi is lost, like when Indrajit fells down Rama, and in such cases you need the grace of Shiva ~ Hanuman, who will fetch you the herbs of immortality. Such grace is always present and experienced in Turiya samAdhi, who told you Hinduism does not teach grace?

    But to avail of grace, you need to reach Kishkinda, where Hanuman is dwelling with Sugriva. What is Kishkinda? It is right within you, find it. I am not talking of the monkey Hanuman, but of the eternal grace called Hanuman, without whom no Yoga or devotion is ever possible. He does not come to you, but you need to go to him - go to Kishkinda. Then it is all his work. It is not possible to encounter Hanuman unless you are in the neighbourhood of Kishkinda and once you reach there he will do the job for you. These are all in Treta Yuga, which is Turiya samAdhi.

    In Kali Yuga, that same Hanuman=grace of Shiva will be searching for those eligible ones, whom he can instruct about the mysteries of various Yugas. Hanuman is the guru ~ grace. He takes different roles in different Yugas. You need to be eligible, by being sincerely devoted to Lord Rama, one day this eternal grace will come to you in some form. A fundamental qualification would be to become purified at heart, a soul that constantly aches and thirsts for God.


    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    Secondly, I am sorry you feel that way. You have not really understood the meaning of His prophesized death, resurrection and what it means to mankind. Whether you could save yourself or not is not our point. Someone who could rise from death could also have saved himself. Jesus used His death on the cross as an example to show mankind the meaning of true compassion for putting him on the cross. Jesus felt the muddled mass was suffering a lot more in their ignorance than His own body on the cross.That is when He said, “ Father, forgive them, they know not what they are doing!”
    Many people have reserructed after death, not just Jesus. Have you read "The autobiography of a Yogi" by Swami Yogananda? Who is Yukteshwar Giri?

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    Thirdly, Jesus always put the father before him. For Him it was always the” wil”l of the Father. He was untouched by “I”. It is the purest of soul that could have incarnated!
    Yes, until such total identity with Brahman is attained, one has to have a distinct identity. Krishna did not have one such, he was always the father - so Jesus was not as enlightened, ruling out avatarhood. When father and the son teach, whom will you listen to. I will take the father's words.

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    Yes, I agree with the surrender of “I” but not “free-will”. There is gross difference between free-will as you interpret and the way the Bible believes. God created man/woman with volition. One thing that God will not violate is the free-will. God wants you to love him out of your choice and not be compelled to do so. If He did so out of force without offering a choice, that love is coerced and not from your conscious choice. Why would God want you to abandon that free-will, I do not understand!
    Yes, you cannot surrender freewill. It will be active for a long time, and till such surrender of it, no moksha is possible. Frewill can be surrendered only in the consciousness of Turiya, when it is known that the so called freewill is only the divine will using you as an instrument, and is an illusion. Christianity which teaches the independence of freewill apart from the will of God, cannot teach you the highest truth about religion.

    We are all doomed to love God and God alone someday, that is the fate, all of us. Bible( as per your interpretation) is flawed and maybe discarded by Sanatana Dharma followers.

    Nirotu, let us accept that God is so graceful, and his eternal grace Hanuman is available to anyone. There is no need for any specific saviour when this eternal (chiranjeevi) is there. Since it is only Time that separates us from God, let us move on, and not cling to any dogmas. I am sure you will find that some day through your Hanuman~Jesus, if not now, then tomorrow. We refuse that grace is selective like Christianity.

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