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Thread: Original Indo Iranian Homeland

  1. #21
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    Wink Re: Original Indo Iranian Homeland (1)

    Namaste Gill,

    The source of the Aral Sea is the Amu Darya, and the Amu Darya is fed by five head-waters. And the Darya-ye Panj flows less than 100 miles away from the Sindhu! How much physical evidence is required to validate the suggestion of such a trifling migration?

    And since aspects of “Kurgan culture” are living today in the eternal Aryan traditions of Hinduism, I wonder what archaeological remnants would be necessary to qualify as acceptable scientific evidence!

  2. #22

    Re: Original Indo Iranian Homeland (1)

    Quote Originally Posted by sarabhanga
    Namaste Gill,

    The source of the Aral Sea is the Amu Darya, and the Amu Darya is fed by five head-waters. And the Darya-ye Panj flows less than 100 miles away from the Sindhu! How much physical evidence is required to validate the suggestion of such a trifling migration?

    And since aspects of “Kurgan culture” are living today in the eternal Aryan traditions of Hinduism, I wonder what archaeological remnants would be necessary to qualify as acceptable scientific evidence!
    Namaste Sarabhanga

    All these are valid comments. But I strongly urge you once again to read Talegeri's book.

    The question isn't "where these people there?" but rather "how did they get there, and why?". Talageri makes a very good case (at least as good as any of the cases of the Aryans-in school) for the BMAC being a secondary homeland for the Druhyus as they migrated out of India.

    There are two migrations recorded in the Rig-veda and the Srimad Bhagavatham.

    The first one by the Druyhus came about after they tried to push the other tribes, principally the Purus, further east. They were attacked and forced out of India by the other tribes, and took a route out which went north-west.

    The second migration out of India came about after the Battle of the 10 Kings on the Ravi river. Sudas led the Purus, and the Purus won that battle, forcing out many of the Anus who went due west.

    So there is literary evidence for migrations going out of India. The first one is recorded at least as far north-west as Afghanistan. There is no evidence for any migration going south, or east, or south east.

    Therefore, the Kurgan culture would be found in India. According to this theory, it's where it came from.

    I strongly urge you to read this book.
    Gill

  3. #23
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    Post Re: Original Indo Iranian Homeland (1)

    The Bhagavata Purana is far too recent to be a literal guide to actual historical events, and even the Rig Veda was compiled (from undoubtedly more ancient sources) after the proposed migration and integration had already occurred.

    The Rig Veda is the most ancient Aryan composition that we know; and if literature is our guide, then the Rig Veda is certainly the most appropriate place to look for some reliable historical indications of Aryan pre-history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill
    There are two migrations recorded in the Rig-veda.

    The first one by the Druyhus came about after they tried to push the other tribes, principally the Purus, further east. They were attacked and forced out of India by the other tribes, and took a route out which went north-west.

    The second migration out of India came about after the Battle of the 10 Kings on the Ravi river. Sudas led the Purus, and the Purus won that battle, forcing out many of the Anus who went due west.

    So there is literary evidence for migrations going out of India. The first one is recorded at least as far north-west as Afghanistan.
    Unless you are referring to some obscure esoteric interpretation of RV 7.18, I can see no mention of any such things in the Rig Veda!

    Quote Originally Posted by Witzel
    In sum, Talageri uses one particular LateVedic Anukramani to establish the history of Rigvedic times, and compares that with a Rgveda of equally Late Vedic redaction.

    This is what I called ‘garbage in garbage out’: By using Late Vedic texts, what can one expect but the Late Vedic/Epic and Puranic point of view that differs from the truly Rgvedic one by the changes made over centuries?

  4. #24

    Re: Original Indo Iranian Homeland


    Namaste Sarabhanga

    I know that's Witzel's view, and he's entitled to it. However, you haven't explained why it's your view. How do we know that these are late Anukrunamis? And even if they are, how do we know that that makes them inaccurate, given the tradition of preserving everything, word for word, so strictly?

    Secondly, on the Puranas with regard to the first migration – that of the Druhyus by the north-west passage - we can choose not to believe the Puranas that record this, or we can say that this is the earliest historical record of any migration. It is a matter of choice. My view is that it is odd that the Puranas goes to great trouble to record all the geneaologies of the sons of the patriarch Yayati – it is these sons who then go on to form the Anu, the Druhyus, the Purus, the Turvashus and the Yadavas. It is the same book of the Srimad Bhagavatham where we find the story of Yayati and the geneaologies that we find the account of the migrations of these tribes. If none of it is true, we have to ask the question: Why would they bother to make it all up. It’s too comprehensive a database.

    One of the arguments is that the Puranas contain mythology, which I agree with. But these Yayati stories, unlike the Krishna ones, do not follow a mythological structure. So why would they record all these names and events if they were not true?

    On the second migration, which came about as a result of the Battle of the Ten Kings, I find Griffiths translation quite clear:


    Rig-veda Book 7, Hymn 18

    ALL is with thee, O Indra, all the treasures which erst our fathers won who sang thy praises.
    With thee are milch-kine good to milk, and horses: best winner thou of riches for the pious.
    2 For like a King among his wives thou dwellest: with glories, as a Sage, surround and help us.
    Make us, thy servants, strong for wealth, and honour our songs wirth kine and steeds and decoration.
    3 Here these our holy hymns with joy and gladness in pious emulation have approached thee.
    Hitherward come thy path that leads to riches: may we find shelter in thy favour, Indra.
    4 Vasistha hath poured forth his prayers, desiring to milk thee like a cow in goodly pasture.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gill Harley

    Vasistha was the family preceptor of the Bharatas, Sudas’s family within the Purus.
    All these my people call thee Lord of cattle: may Indra. come unto the prayer we offer.
    5 What though the floods spread widely, Indra made them shallow and easy for Sudas to traverse.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gill Harley

    A reference to the battle on the river Ravi, (then called Parusni)
    He, worthy of our praises, caused the Simyu, foe of our hymn, to curse the rivers' fury.
    6 Eager for spoil was Turvasa Purodas, fain to win wealth, like fishes urged by hunger.
    The Bhrgus and the Druhyus quickly listened: friend rescued friend mid the two distant peoples.
    7 Together came the Pakthas, the Bhalanas, the Alinas, the Sivas, the Visanins.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gill Harley

    The above tribes were the members of the Anus. The priests of the Anus were the Bhrigus. The Alinas went on to be the Alans, the Hellenes, then eventually the Greeks. The Turvasa and Simyu tribes are also mentioned.

    Yet to the Trtsus came the Arya's Comrade, through love of spoil and heroes' war, to lead them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gill Harley

    The Trtsus were Iksvakus (sun dynasty of Rama) and friends of the Purus.
    8 Fools, in their folly fain to waste her waters, they parted inexhaustible Parusni.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill Harley

    The Parusni is the river that is now called the Ravi that runs through the Punjab. Commentators believe that it used to be a tributary of the Saraswati. This would add to the theory that the Purus were moving west into Anu territory as the Saraswati dried up. Others believe they were pressing west because they wanted the herb that created Soma.
    Lord of the Earth, he with his might repressed them: still lay the herd and the affrighted herdsman.
    9 As to their goal they sped to their destruetion: they sought Parusni; e'en the swift returned not.
    Indra abandoned, to Sudas the manly, the swiftly flying foes, unmanly babblers.
    10 They went like kine unherded from the pasture, each clinging to a friend as chance directed.
    They who drive spotted steeds, sent down by Prsni, gave ear, the Warriors and the harnessed horses.
    11 The King who scattered one-and-twenty people of both Vaikarna tribes through lust of glory-
    As the skilled priest clips grass within the chamber, so hath the Hero Indra, wrought their downfall.
    12 Thou, thunder-armed, o'erwhelmedst in the waters famed ancient Kavasa and then the Druhyu.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gill Harley

    The Kavasa were the Kavis who were also Anus. The Kavis are known to have migrated to what is now Iran/Iraq.
    Others here claiming friendship to their friendship, devoted unto thee, in thee were joyful.
    13 Indra at once with conquering might demolished all their strong places and their seven castles.
    The goods of Anu's son he gave to Trtsu. May we in sacrifice conquer scorned Puru.
    14 The Anavas and Druhyus, seeking booty, have slept, the sixty hundred, yea, six thousand,
    And six-and-sixty heroes. For the pious were all these mighty exploits done by Indra.
    15 These Trtsus under Indra's careful guidance came speeding like loosed waters rushing downward.
    The foemen, measuring exceeding closely, abandoned to Sudas all their provisions.
    16 The hero's side who drank the dressed oblation, Indra's denier, far o'er earth he scattered.
    Indra brought down the fierce destroyer's fury. He gave them various roads, the path's Controller.
    17 E'en with the weak he wrought this matchless exploit: e'en with a goat he did to death a lion.
    He pared the pillar's angles with a needle. Thus to Sudas Indra gave all provisions.
    18 To thee have all thine enemies submitted: e'en the fierce Bheda hast thou made thy subject.
    Cast down thy sharpened thunderbolt, O Indra, on him who harms the men who sing thy praises.
    19 Yamuna and the Trtsus aided Indra. There he stripped Bheda bare of all his treasures.
    The Ajas and the Sigrus and the Yaksus brought in to him as tribute heads of horses.
    20 Not to be scorned, but like Dawns past and recent, O Indra, are thy favours and thy riches.
    Devaka, Manyamana's son, thou slewest, and smotest Sambara from the lofty mountain.
    21 They who, from home, have gladdened thee, thy servants Parasara, Vasistha, Satayatu,
    Will not forget thy friendship, liberal Giver. So shall the days dawn prosperous for the princes.
    22 Priest-like, with praise, I move around the altar, earning Paijavana's reward, O Agni,
    Two hundred cows from Devavan's descendant, two chariots from Sudas with mares to draw them.
    23 Gift of Paijavana, four horses bear me in foremost place, trained steeds with pearl to deck them.
    Sudas's brown steeds, firmly-stepping, carry me and my son for progeny and glory.
    24 Him whose fame spreads between wide earth and heaven, who, as dispenser, gives each chief his portion,
    Seven flowing Rivers glorify like Indra. He slew Yudhyamadhi in close encounter.
    25 Attend on him O ye heroic Maruts as on Sudas's father Divodasa.
    Further Paijavana's desire with favour. Guard faithfully his lasting firm dominion.


    Rig-veda 7, 83, 4-8

    1. THESE who wear hair-knots on the right, the movers of holy thought, white-robed, have won me over.
    I warned the men, when from the grass I raised me, Not from afar can my Vasisthas help you.
    2 With soma they brought Indra from a distance, Over Vaisanta, from the strong libation.
    Indra preferred Vasisthas to the Soma pressed by the son of Vayata, Pasadyumna.
    3 So, verily, with these he crossed the river, in company with these he slaughtered Bheda.
    So in the fight with the Ten Kings, Vasisthas! did Indra help Sudas through your devotions.
    4 I gladly, men I with prayer prayed by our fathers have fixed your axle: ye shall not be injured:
    Since, when ye sang aloud the Sakvari verses, Vasisthas! ye invigorated Indra.
    5 Like thirsty men they looked to heaven, in battle with the Ten Kings, surrounded and imploring.
    Then Indra heard Vasistha as he praised him, and gave the Trtsus ample room and freedom.
    6 Like sticks and staves wherewith they drive the cattle, Stripped bare, the Bharatas were found defenceless:
    Vasistha then became their chief and leader: then widely. were the Trtsus' clans extended.
    7 Three fertilize the worlds with genial moisture: three noble Creatures cast a light before them.
    Three that give warmth to all attend the morning. All these have they discovered, these Vasisthas.
    8 Like the Sun's growing glory is their splendour, and like the sea's is their unflathomed greatness.
    Their course is like the wind's. Your laud, Vasisthas, can never be attained by any other.


    This is very obviously a battle on a river where the Purus wiped out, or banished, the other tribes – Anus and Druhyus. I don’t see how it could be otherwise.



    Last edited by Gill Harley; 05 July 2006 at 06:56 AM.
    Gill

  5. #25
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    Post Re: Original Indo Iranian Homeland

    Namaste Gill,

    The Bhagavata Purana is very much later than the Vedas!

    By using Late Vedic texts, what can one expect but the Late Vedic/Epic and Puranic point of view that differs from the truly Rgvedic one by the changes made over centuries?
    “Talageri does not say which Anukramani he used and how he reached the conclusion that it is coeval with the RV. Instead, and rather surprisingly, he now tells us that he did not use any Anukramani at all, but instead, the names of Rsis, deities and meters printed in the various RV editions before each hymn. Also, he does not want to take notice of the fact that his (now indirect) source of the Rsi ascription in the editions (the Sarvanukramani) was not even fixed by 500 AD. In addition, Talageri simply neglects all other Anukramanis (Rgvedic or otherwise).”
    It will take some time for me to properly consider RV 7.18.

  6. #26

    Re: Original Indo Iranian Homeland

    Namaste Sarabhanga

    I shall look forward to your reply.

    I am aware that the Puranas are much later than the Rig-vedas. But my point was: are we throwing the baby out with the bath water by saying that there is no historical truth in them. And while "later" automatically means that the story is being retold further away from the event itself and so factual errors could occur, it does not, imho, automatically mean that these stories were cynically made up to create a false history for India.

    There are some scholars that believe that the story of the Mahabharata is a reworking of the Rig-vedic Battle of the 10 Kings, and I must say, the same thought struck me too, quite independently, as I read it. Also, neither Yudhistira or Krishna appear in the kings lists.

    So I believe that our task is either to separate mythology from history, or discover whether these mythological stories (designed for the purposes of spiritual teaching) are based on historical events . As I've said before, the stories of Yayati and his five children, which led to the five tribes and their consequent migrations, do not fit into any known mythological structure - or known by me anyway! It also seems unlikely to me that the creaters of the Bhagavatham would create pages and pages of fake geneaologies.
    Gill

  7. #27
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    Post Re: Original Indo Iranian Homeland (2)

    Āprī ~ Rigveda 10.110.1-11



    समिद्धो अद्य मनुषो दुरोणे देवो देवान्यजसि जातवेदः ।
    आ च वह मित्रमहश्चिकित्वान्त्वं दूतः कविरसिप्रचेताः ॥ १॥


    samiddho adya manuṣo duroṇe devo devānyajasi jātavedaḥ |
    ā ca vaha mitramahaścikitvāntvaṁ dūtaḥ kavirasipracetāḥ || 1 ||



    तनूनपआत्पथ ऋतस्य यानान्मध्वा समञ्जन्स्वदयासुजिह्व ।
    मन्मानि धीभिरुत यज्ञं ऋन्धन्देवत्रा चकृणुह्यध्वरं नः ॥ २॥


    tanūnapaātpatha ṛtasya yānānmadhvā samañjansvadayāsujihva |
    manmāni dhībhiruta yajñaṁ ṛndhandevatrā cakṛṇuhyadhvaraṁ naḥ || 2 ||



    आजुह्वान ईड्यो वन्द्यश्चा याह्यग्ने वसुभिः सजोषाः ।
    त्वं देवानामसि यह्व होता स एनान्यक्षीषितो यजीयान् ॥ ३॥


    ājuhvāna īḍyo vandyaścā yāhyagne vasubhiḥ sajoṣāḥ |
    tvaṁ devānāmasi yahva hotā sa enānyakṣīṣito yajīyān || 3 ||



    प्राचीनं बर्हिः प्रदिशा पृथिव्या वस्तोरस्या वृज्यते अग्रे अह्नाम् ।
    व्यु प्रथते वितरं वरीयो देवेभ्यो अदितये स्योनम् ॥ ४॥


    prācīnaṁ barhiḥ pradiśā pṛthivyā vastorasyā vṛjyate agre ahnām |
    vyu prathate vitaraṁ varīyo devebhyo aditaye syonam || 4 ||



    व्यचस्वतीरुर्विया वि श्रयन्तां पतिभ्यो न जनयः शुम्भमानाः ।
    देवीर्द्वारो बृहतीर्विश्वमिन्वा देवेभ्योभवत सुप्रायणाः ॥ ५॥


    vyacasvatīrurviyā vi śrayantāṁ patibhyo na janayaḥ śumbhamānāḥ |
    devīrdvāro bṛhatīrviśvaminvā devebhyobhavata suprāyaṇāḥ || 5 ||



    आ सुष्वयन्ती यजते उपआके उषासानक्ता सदतां नियोनौ ।
    दिव्ये योषणे बृहती सुरुक्मे अधि श्रियं शुक्रपिशं दधाने ॥ ६॥


    ā suṣvayantī yajate upaāke uṣāsānaktā sadatāṁ niyonau |
    divye yoṣaṇe bṛhatī surukme adhi śriyaṁ śukrapiśaṁ dadhāne || 6 ||



    दैव्या होतारा प्रथमा सुवाचा मिमाना यज्ञं मनुषोयजध्यै ।
    प्रचोदयन्ता विदथेषु कारू प्राचीनं ज्योतिःप्रदिशा दिशन्ता ॥ ७॥


    daivyā hotārā prathamā suvācā mimānā yajñaṁ manuṣoyajadhyai |
    pracodayantā vidatheṣu kārū prācīnaṁ jyotiḥpradiśā diśantā || 7 ||



    आ नो यज्ञं भारती तूयमेत्विळा मनुष्वदिहचेतयन्ती ।
    तिस्रो देवीर्बर्हिरेदं स्योनं सरस्वतीस्वपसः सदन्तु ॥ ८॥


    ā no yajñaṁ bhāratī tūyametviḻā manuṣvadihacetayantī |
    tisro devīrbarhiredaṁ syonaṁ sarasvatīsvapasaḥ sadantu || 8 ||



    य इमे द्यावापृथिवी जनित्री रूपैरपिंशद्भुवनानिविश्वा ।
    तमद्य होतरिषितो यजीयान्देवं त्वष्टारमिह यक्षि विद्वान् ॥ ९॥


    ya ime dyāvāpṛthivī janitrī rūpairapiṁśadbhuvanāniviśvā |
    tamadya hotariṣito yajīyāndevaṁ tvaṣṭāramiha yakṣi vidvān || 9 ||



    उपावसृज त्मन्या समञ्जन्देवानां पाथ ऋतुथाहवींषि ।
    वनस्पतिः शमिता देवो अग्निः स्वदन्तु हव्यम्मधुना घृतेन ॥ १०॥


    upāvasṛja tmanyā samañjandevānāṁ pātha ṛtuthāhavīṁṣi |
    vanaspatiḥ śamitā devo agniḥ svadantu havyammadhunā ghṛtena || 10 ||



    सद्यो जातो व्यमिमीत यज्ञमग्निर्देवानामभवत्पुरोगाः ।
    अस्य होतुः प्रदिश्यृतस्य वाचि स्वाहाकृतं हविरदन्तु देवाः ॥ ११॥


    sadyo jāto vyamimīta yajñamagnirdevānāmabhavatpurogāḥ |
    asya hotuḥ pradiśyṛtasya vāci svāhākṛtaṁ haviradantu devāḥ || 11 ||




    1. Thou in the house of man this day enkindled worshippest Gods as God, O Jatavedas.
    Observant, bright as Mitra, bring them hither: thou art a sapient and foreknowing envoy.

    2. Tanunapat, fair-tongued, with sweet meath balming the paths and ways of Order, make them pleasant.
    Convey our sacrifice to heaven, exalting with holy thoughts our hymns of praise and worship.

    3. Invoked, deserving prayer and adoration, O Agni, come accordant with the Vasus.
    Thou art, O Youthful Lord, the Gods’ Invoker, so, best of Sacrificers, bring them quickly.

    4. By rule the Sacred Grass is scattered eastward, a robe to clothe this earth when dawns are breaking.
    Widely it spreads around and far-extended, fair for the Gods and bringing peace and freedom.

    5. Let the expansive Doors be widely opened, like wives who deck their beauty for their husbands.
    Lofty, celestial, all-impelling Portals, admit the Gods and give them easy entrance.

    6. Pouring sweet dews let holy Night and Morning, each close to each, he seated at their station,
    Lofty, celestial Dames with gold to deck them. assuming all their fair and radiant beauty.

    7. Come the two first celestial sweet-voiced Hotars, arranging sacrifice for man to worship,
    As singers who inspire us in assemblies, showing the eastward light with their direction.

    8. Let Bharati come quickly to our worship, and Ila showing like a human being.
    So let Sarasvati and both her fellows, deft Goddesses, on this fair grass be seated.


    9. Hotar more skilled in sacrifice, bring hither with speed today God Tvastar, thou who knowest.
    Even him who formed these two, the Earth and Heaven the Parents, with their forms, and every creature.

    10. Send to our offerings which thyself thou balmest the Companies of Gods in ordered season.
    Agni, Vanaspati the Immolator sweeten our offered gift with meath and butter.

    11. Agni, as soon as he was born, made ready the sacrifice, and was the Gods’ preceder.
    May the Gods cat our offering consecrated according to this true Priest's voice and guidance.



    iLA = iDA

    bhAratI = piÑgalA

    sarasvatI = suSumNA


    See also: notes from Gita Satsang thread.

  8. #28
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    Post Re: Original Indo Iranian Homeland (2)

    bhRgu is the name of a race of beings who are closely connected with fire, which they found and secreted in various places ~ e.g. inside wood.

    bhRgu RSi is the progenitor of the bhRgavaH (or bhArgava), and his own patronym is vAruNi.

    And bhRgu is the father of cyavAna RSi (and shukra, the daitya guru).

    bhRgu is derived from bhrAj, which means “to shine, beam, or sparkle” and indicates “light, lustre, or splendour”.

  9. #29

    Re: Original Indo Iranian Homeland

    Namaste Sarabhanga

    On your first post - thank you for posting such a beautiful hymn. I really enjoyed it - and I read it several times. I think it's one of the loveliest pieces of writing that I've ever read. Unfortunately, though, I did not understand it's relevance to our topic here. I'm sure it's probably just me being dense. But I would be grateful if you could clarify why you've posted it here and it's relevance to our discussion.

    On your second post - according to Talegeri, Book 10 (from which you quote this hymn) was the latest book of the Rig-veda, and most of its hymns were composed by the Bhrigus, who were the priests of the Anu tribe. He says that the Bhrigus were very much outside the pale of Vedic practice during the composition of the earlier books by the Angirasa rishis (of the Puru tribe). But after one of their members married into the the Purus, Jamadagni, they were more accepted. He says that it was the Bhrigus who invented the fire ceremony and passed it on to the Purus.

    One family of Bhrigu priests were the Spitamas, and it was they who went on to produce Zoroaster. The Bhrigus were also responsible for much of the later literature including the Puranas and even the Ramayana (Valmiki was a Bhrigu).
    Gill

  10. #30
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    Arrow Re: Original Indo Iranian Homeland

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill
    Aurora’s three fairy godmothers, Freda, Almeida and Breda.

    What it’s about should be fairly obvious to students of Vedic mythology.

    In the Norse sagas, the three fairy godmothers are known as the three Sisters of Wyrd, or the Norns, who sit at spinning wheels, spinning our destiny at the root of the World Tree, Yggdrasil. They are a favourite staple right through Anglo-Saxon and English literature. Shakespeare used them in Macbeth as the three witches stirring the cauldron and casting the fate of Macbeth.

    So it’s my view that the original three witches/sisters/fairy-godmothers were the three Rig-vedic goddesses who are always referred together: Ila, Saraswati and Mahi.
    The three Rigvedic Goddesses who are always invoked together, are always invoked together in the Apri mantras, which are traditionally recited at the outset of all Vedic oblations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharabhanga
    Let Bharati come quickly to our worship, and Ila showing like a human being. So let Sarasvati and both her fellows, deft Goddesses, on this fair grass be seated.

    iLA = iDA
    bhAratI = piÑgalA
    sarasvatI = suSumNA


    Pingala (Yamuna) Nadi is the solar channel; Ida (Ganga) Nadi is the lunar channel; and between them is Sushumna (Sarasvati) Nadi.

    The Rudrayamala Tantra agrees that:

    Ganga = Ida = Soma = Puraka,

    Yamuna = Pingala = Surya = Recaka,

    Sarasvati = Sushumna = Agni = Kumbhaka.

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