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Thread: Can Advaita philosophy and Vaishnava views be "merged"?

  1. #21
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    Re: Can Advaita philosophy and Vaishnava views be "merged"?

    Quote Originally Posted by sm78 View Post
    Before the muslim destruction, the kashmir valley was the hot beg of religious evolutions and breakthroughs. Along with the more publisized buddhism and shaivism, vaishnavism was also very popular in kashmir and was strictly a monist philosophy. This I was reading in the introduction to manthanabhairavatantra. I don't know any kashmiri monist vaishnava text or tradition ever survived - you may want to research a bit. However one must be clear that strict monism of tantras is not same as shankara advaita vedanta.
    There is one text I have read about, the Paramarthasara of Adishesha. This was written in the introduction of the Paramarthasara of Abhinavagupta translated by Deba Brata SenSharma:

    The Paramarthasara, the Essence of the Supreme Truth,
    is a work of 105 verses written in the Arya metre. It is an
    adaptation of an earlier Vaisnavite text with the same title by
    Adisesa, who is also known as Anantanatha or Adhara. This
    earlier text of the Paramarthasara by Adisesa contains 85
    verses also in Arya metre. It was published by T. Ganapati
    Sastri with the commentary called Vivarana by
    Raghavananda, as volume 12 in the Anantashayana Sanskrit
    Series in 1911.

    This earlier Paramarthasara by Adisesa is considered to be

    a Vaisnavite text because the first verse is an adoration to
    Visnu and the text teaches a single unified reality which it
    calls Vasudeva or Visnu. The final verse declares that the main
    purpose of the text is to present the essence of
    the Vedanta philosophy of the Upanisads, but in spite of
    this declaration of its aim it does not follow Sankaracharya's
    monistic philosophy. Instead, it expounds ideas from classical
    Sankhya, such as the concepts of purusa and prakrti.
    Abhinavagupta has completely transformed this earlier
    text into a Shaivite text by retaining some verses unchanged,
    making alterations to others, and adding additional
    verses. He has enlarged the text from 85 to 105 verses.

    Yogaraja, commenting on the final verse, observes that:

    Abhinavagupta, the great follower of the supreme Lord,
    Paramasiva, reproduced the description of the supreme truth,
    given in the past by Lord Sesa, by enlarging and
    refashioning the text to conform with the monistic
    spiritual experiences of the Agamic teachings.

    A comparative study of the two texts shows striking and
    numerous similarities and exact correspondences, confirming
    that the present text of the Paramarthasara of Abhinavagupta is
    an adaptation of the older text by Adiéesa.

    It is available at this online store with the description:

    http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=11461

    The Paramarthasara, or Epitome of the Highest Truth, is perhaps the earliest work on Advaita Vedanta in existence. Attributed to Adi Sesa, the primeval serpent, or at least to his incarnation Patanjali, it gives in a mere 85 verses, employing ancient Samkhya terminology, a succinct statement of the highest truths taught in non-dual Vedanta. Its teachings have many parallels to those found in Gaudapada's famous Mandukya-karika. This edition includes the original Sanskrit text.

    Added to this edition is the later Kashmir Saiva work of the same name, written by Abhinavagupta, which is based on Adi Sesa's earlier work.
    Last edited by Sahasranama; 20 February 2012 at 09:36 AM.

  2. #22

    Re: Can Advaita philosophy and Vaishnava views be "merged"?

    Quote Originally Posted by TouchedbytheLord View Post
    From my readings it seems most Vaishnavas lean towards VishishtAdvaita or Achintya BhedAbheda (Gaudiyas, of course). I have a problem with the concept of a Vaikunthaloka or Goloka with fields and grass and flowers, singing and dancing and having a jolly good time, as I think is a common Vaishnava belief. I don't mean to make fun but unless I have misread or misunderstood (quite likely ), it smacks of the Abrahamic Heaven or Greek Elysian Fields beliefs, which I utterly reject.[/COLOR]
    I have pondered this much myself. Isn't it a very stereotypical view to "Heaven" after all?

    What if it is in fact an archetypal representation of spiritual life, and not in the literal sense it is so portrayed in - with physical grass, fields, flowers, and so on? What if there are analogical correlates which mirror this rusticity to an infinite degree - in terms and geometries we can hardly conceive? This is my best rationale; that such pastimes are not to be taken as simple bare facts but as indicative of a higher reality, that sees "normal life" with all its simplicity, as the base-line and where the truest happiness can ever be experienced. I think we all have intimations of this sense, especially as children. Simultaneously, we can't only remain children. We must grow up and yet retain that simplicity, that in-born intelligence.

    Once again it is good to keep in mind that the Final Truth is indeed beyond description.
    How can I put this in a sentence? Try next time.

  3. #23
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    Re: Can Advaita philosophy and Vaishnava views be "merged"?

    Quote Originally Posted by TouchedbytheLord View Post

    As water evaporates and separates from the ocean, becomes clouds (we, in material existence separated from God), then rains back down and merges into the ocean where it belongs, the water in the rain clouds is no different than the water in the ocean from whence it came.[/COLOR]


    Dear Tbt Lord,

    IMHO: In this beautiful passage the source content has to be understood as water not the ocean. The source water must exist in some evanescent form like that of vapour spewing out of a tea pot, the liquid that stays as ocean, snow that dresses up the Himalayas and the cloud that covers the sky.

    Likewise the Cit assumes the form of the entire universe in all its diversities as seen as this, from the subtlest mind to the grossest matter.

    Without the existence of the substance water none of these forms of water has validity, in the same sense, without the core substance Cit, no world can exist; without these manifested forms, the Substance Cit, cannot exist either.

    The Eternal Substance and its fleeting apparent forms, the World, are thus inseparable; this has to be intuitively perceived by every careful seeker student.

    ------------------------
    The method employed here is called Yoga-Buddhi in Srimad. Bhagavad Gita, in which, an enlightened master, when communicating what is ineffable, points out two of its opposite expressible aspects, such as substance and attribute or self and non-self, leaving it to the seeker perceive it by his own, as the understanding of the Absolute is not possible by the usual didactic methods of learning and teaching which mostly based on pragmatic, empirical or common logical approach of theological order.

    Good luck and Love

  4. #24
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    Re: Can Advaita philosophy and Vaishnava views be "merged"?

    Namaste brahman, thank you.


    Quote Originally Posted by brahman View Post



    Dear Tbt Lord,

    IMHO: In this beautiful passage the source content has to be understood as water not the ocean. The source water must exist in some evanescent form like that of vapour spewing out of a tea pot, the liquid that stays as ocean, snow that dresses up the Himalayas and the cloud that covers the sky.
    Good luck and Love
    Yes, I should have really referred to water as a whole not just the ocean. But you get the idea. So then, in my mind Vaishnavism and Advaita, or even VishishtAdvaita are not incompatible. I could say "meh, who cares? I will strive for moksha and see what happens then". But without being able to reconcile what one believes or "feels", advancement is difficult.
    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

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    Re: Can Advaita philosophy and Vaishnava views be "merged"?

    There is no generalized vaishnava view exist as such.If one considers different vaishnava philosophy as ascending steps of a ladder and take Achintya-bhedabheda as highest and pinnacle of vaishnava goal, then YES...at this point only ADVITA AND VAISHNAB VIEWS MERGE.

    But that highest point where advita and achintya-bhedabheda merge at single point can be realized,but its difficult to explain.That"s why its mostly vaishnabas who are inexperienced always argue against advita.

    For those believing Chaitanya as incarnation of Combined Radha-Krishna, he is himself the perfect example of Achntya-bheda-bheda and advita merged at same time.

    Chaitanya is Krishna inside wrapped with Radha bhava(also same as swaroop). What does it implies?One Advita Brahman takes different swaroop(bhava roop- chinmaya emotional bodies).

    The purpose= LEELA. he enjoys himself by becoming different emotional bodies in his eternal abode.Its again should be understood in spiritual realm,not somewhere physical abode.CIT IS BRAHMAN.ANANDA IS HIS SWAROOP.Chit becomes krishna Ananda becomes Radha/Gopis.The material to form different bodies is CHINMAYA(ANTARANGA SHAKTI) which is different from the material used in this physical realm--which is maya.(APARA PRAKRITI/BAHIRANGA SHAKTI)

    Its like scratching left hand with right hand to enjoy the process.

    the difference between this higher spiritual realm from our inferior physical realm is that its mortal and ever changing.Hence filled with sorrow,pain,loss.

    But the highest spiritual realm is eternal,CIT is ever manifest,without ignorance,hence eternal bliss and peace.A sadhaka vaishnab can"t understand this transcendental CHIT swaroop as GOD which is different from his self.
    Man-naathah Shri Jagan-nathah Mat-guru-shri jagad-guruhu.
    Mad-atma sarva-bhutatma tasmai Shri Gurave Namah.


    My Lord is the Lord of Universe; My teacher is the teacher of the
    entire universe; and my Self is the Self of all. My salutations at the lotus-feet
    of such a Guru, who has revealed such knowledge to me.

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    Re: Can Advaita philosophy and Vaishnava views be "merged"?

    Dear Anirvan.,

    That"s why its mostly vaishnabas who are inexperienced always argue against advita.
    This is just your opinion and the great seers who argued and dismissed Advaita are not 'inexperienced' and if at all you want to give yourself a chance, please purchase "Nyaya Sudha' or at least the comparision of "Nyaya Amruta VS Advaita Siddhi" by BNK Sharma and understand that Advaita is not tenable with the available Pramana and Shakshi's (Proof and witness) and considering such very detailed analysis, experience and evidences based arguments shouldn't be dismissed are 'inexperienced'.

    It is a strong misunderstanding by new comers in Advaita that Shri Chaitanya's achintya BedAbedha is in sync with "Advaita" but the authority of this Achintya BedAbeda school Himself dismisses the Advaita and advices that everything will be doomed if you even hear the words of Advaitins. ( So, we should take this advice seriously)

    "Mayavada bhasya sunile haya sarva nasa"

    So, instead of trying a not so necessary unification of all philosophy as one, why can't it be independent thoughts and experiences? Why all food be sweet, all colors be red and all ice cream be vanilla?

    Also good to remember

    bahu-sastre bahu vakye cite bhrama haya
    sadhya sadhana srestha na haya niscaya

    "If one reads too many books and accepts the opinions of too many people, doubt will arise in the heart. One will not be able to ascertain what the supreme goal of life is."

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    Re: Can Advaita philosophy and Vaishnava views be "merged"?

    Namaste all,

    If Vedanta is to be believed then all paths must merge to Advaita. Vedanta tells us that Advaita is the final destination of all paths. If we look at some smritis who are revered by the Vaishnavas like Uttar Gita, then also one would have no difficulty in understanding that Advaita is the final destination and if that is not attained, the journey is not yet over.

    There some friends here who will assert otherwise but they won't stand even for a while if we discuss purely on Vedanta and not based on someone's own views expressed in XYZ book. Just by writing something in a book, an opinion doesn't become Truth.

    All the Vedantic schools accept VedAnta as its authority. So, let us go directly to the source ... why accept anything lesser than that ? Moreover, There are a number of Vaishnava schools and many of them accept Advaita except some like ISKCON who have distorted the words of Chaitanya MahAprabhu for the reasons best known to them.

    Sometime back I met a God-realised saint (as appeared to me and as claimed by the devotees) here in Varanasi. While having a light discussion with him, I asked him one question :

    "Baba, some people say that Atman is one whereas there are some who say that Atman are many. What do you say ? Is Atman one or many ? Accordingly, are your Atman and my Atman one or are they two ?"

    Baba replied in broken Hindi (he speaks Avadhi and is not much literate) :

    "Atman is one alone. It is not many. Your and my Atman appear to be different but they are not in reality. It is like space in various jars. The space is one but due to the forms/limitations of jars, it appears as many".

    I was shell-shocked to hear his reply. How can you expect a semi-literate Bhakti-path saint to talk on non-duality with so much confidence ?

    Who will you believe ? The VedAnta, the God-realised saints or the glib-talking people who claim to know things they have never read from the source ?

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  8. #28
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    Re: Can Advaita philosophy and Vaishnava views be "merged"?

    Namaste devotee (and others, of course ).

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    "Atman is one alone. It is not many. Your and my Atman appear to be different but they are not in reality. It is like space in various jars. The space is one but due to the forms/limitations of jars, it appears as many".
    And I believe (don't quote me ) it was yajvanji who made that analogy a while back, going further and saying that the jar is in air but air is in the jar. I now see that the jars are different shapes, sizes, textures, colors, materials, etc. but they are all filled with air and yet in the air. That's what I felt that day I said I had "The Experience"!
    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

  9. #29
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    Re: Can Advaita philosophy and Vaishnava views be "merged"?

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Who will you believe ? The VedAnta, the God-realised saints or the glib-talking people who claim to know things they have never read from the source ?

    In due time every Portion here will witness for themself the Truth of our location, constitution and destination here. Belief is stronger when you see if for yourself. If one comes along to tell you anything...it is always quantified by the fact it was not your own vision which determined this Truth...but anothers. I would say all three of those choices you gave are not enough for this fool.

    Sure, maybe any one of those would help, but in the end. Self realization comes from inside...our Self.

    I like the jar story, but air is a problem for me. Air...can not do justice to our being, fully.

    This realm, from what I have witnessed...our relationship with Beloved.

    Is as a wonderful Perfect Library(Beloved) each of us has a location, a name to our story...within that Library.

    My book is known as Lanie...and I have a place I belong within that Library...

    But, take me out of that wonderful wholy perfect Place(Beloved) and I am just the story of a fool...known as Lanie.

    All the books, are called Library(Beloved) when they are together. But each on their own...has a name, identity...and story to tell. You would never look at a book and say...hmm this is a Library! But you could also turn it over and clearly see that the Library known as Shiva is upon the front cover in the "Belongs To" space.

    You can go back...and access these stories yourself...and see the Truth of this if you wish. I have seen it, as has my Beloved Husband. Beyond this vessel we have a name and an identity. We are the Trillion Voices.

    I tell you this, although you can accept or decline it.

    I hope you decline and seek it for yourself...with all my heart.

    But, you can merge any beliefs in this realm together, if you have witnessed them as Truth...with your own heart and soul.

    Things you know to be True, from your own experience are worth more than a billion Portions coming and saying "yes that's right".

    I know this fact, for from this place which I dwell...all of them say jesus is the only way to salvation...billions of them...some very wise...some very ignorant....and all of them very wrong.

    So use whatever helps you to move forward. There is no one philosophy within SD which has a strangle hold on the Truth more than another. All of them are a WellSpring of Truth.

    It's all how you use them.

  10. #30
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    Re: Can Advaita philosophy and Vaishnava views be "merged"?

    Namaste NS,

    Quote Originally Posted by NaYaSurya
    I would say all three of those choices you gave are not enough for this fool.
    Your post made my eyes filled with tears. May God grant me the same resolve towards Self-realisation ! May everyone of us stick to just one passion ... direct realisation of the Ultimate Truth and ... nothing less than that should be acceptable. No Vedas, no saint's preaching ... nothing is acceptable to me but the Direct Perception ... where there would be no doubts ... no words of arguments .... just the Truth shining in its own glory ... that is the resolve which is required. ... and then only this VedavAkya would hold true :

    "Tatra Vedah Avedah bhavanyti"

    ===> There the Vedas become Avedah (not-Vedas) i.e. they lose their value.

    I envy your resolve. EM too talks in same language. I never find him arguing on scriptures. You people are blessed souls.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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