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Thread: Suffering?

  1. #21
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    Re: Suffering?

    A certain combination of external events may be perceived as bad, but that is only at the ego level, where we judge what is good or bad based on our personal limitations.

    What's the point of something that is not God? That's illogical (criticize me Devotee... ) when we consider the Advaita concept of God.

    If God is the smallest and the largest, how can there be something that is not him? Specially when we understand that the very basis for existence itself, is God.

    For me, the proper understanding of suffering should also deal with the subject of maya.

  2. #22
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    Re: Suffering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pietro Impagliazzo View Post
    A certain combination of external events may be perceived as bad, but that is only at the ego level, where we judge what is good or bad based on our personal limitations.

    What's the point of something that is not God? That's illogical (criticize me Devotee... ) when we consider the Advaita concept of God.

    If God is the smallest and the largest, how can there be something that is not him? Specially when we understand that the very basis for existence itself, is God.

    For me, the proper understanding of suffering should also deal with the subject of maya.
    I was sort of expecting this question. I had the habit of reciting Bhagwad Gita to my mother when she was alive. While reciting and explaining chapter-10 of BG, she exclaimed :

    When He is all bright and shining, what is that is dark ? When He is all that Good alone then what is it that is bad ? If there is something different from Lord Krishna then how can it be said, "Vasudevah sarvam iti" (Everything is Vasudeva alone" (BG 7.19) & how can one have this outlook, "Yo maam pashyati sarvatra sarvam cha mayi pashyati" (BG 6.30) ??

    It is easy to explain this from Advaita point of view. From Dvaita point of view, it would be difficult ... but I would like to see how other knowledgeable members resolve this issue.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  3. #23
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    Re: Suffering?

    Namaste Satay,

    WRT your OP, few important points need to be pondered upon..

    1. What is God, is he different than you, your true self? (Till the time person remains under the influence of Maya- he is Jiva who is always looking at Ishvara for all his problems and fulfillment of desires. As I mentioned about two birds of Naya Surya's post- I meant Jiva and Ishvara)

    2. Suffering: What is the cause of suffering? Is it not desires?
    The basic of Yoga is chitt-Vritti Nirodhah i.e. making the mind stable by observing it and not reacting, thereby achieving desire free state.
    Take example of a self-realized person, what would he desire after realizing the truth-- nothing!
    In the absence of desires will he have any sufferings? Of-course Not.

    3. Is God only good? Again these are relative terms. When one looks at things from Jivas perspective things are good and bad, when everything is a creation of "God", can it be said, this creation of God is good but that is bad.
    Good and bad are only for jivas, who is working under the influence of Maya, as for Ishvara who is beyond Maya/ Prakriti (hence three gunas), what can be good or bad?

    4. Ishvara is Drashta/ witness to all things of Jiva, hence as a witness he knows everything (like taste of a mango or suffering of Jiva, who is begging for his mercy at all times). Now important question is "Does Ishvara reacts?"- Yes he does, that's how most of the desires of Jivas are fulfilled, (This is explained in Bhagavatam). It is the ignorance of Jiva who because of his ignorance considers himself as Doer (Karta)thereby faces the result of all those good and bad karmas, whereas truth is different (Explained in Bhagavad Gita Ch 3/ 27).

    5. Devotee has quoted....
    "When He is all bright and shining, what is that is dark ? When He is all that Good alone then what is it that is bad ? If there is something different from Lord Krishna then how can it be said, "Vasudevah sarvam iti" (Everything is Vasudeva alone" (BG 7.19) & how can one have this outlook, "Yo maam pashyati sarvatra sarvam cha mayi pashyati" (BG 6.30) ??
    Unquote

    Namaste Devotee, a Jnani like you posting such question surprised me. As explained above there is nothing that is different than Vasudevah.

    "Vasudevah (pure consciousness) sarvam iti" is the Truth and I am quiet sure you too don't have any doubt about it.
    Only a person who is truly self-realized can have this view of "Sarvam Khalvidam Brahmam" which is explained by Lord Krishna as "Yo maam pashyati sarvatra..........".

    What is the true sign of a self-realized person "There is no difference of any kind that remains between him and others, he sees the expansion of his true self everywhere thus he sees himself only".

    Similarly a true devotee of Lord when attains the true grace of the lord and sees him within, he sees the lord everywhere because "Vasudevah sarvam iti" thus Shloka from Bhagvad Gita Ch.6/30 holds good (Yo maam pashyati.....)

    I am not good at writing so pardon me for my mistakes and hope the point I wish to convey is understood.

    Pranam

    Ekoham
    Jo sahaj hai, saral hai, wohi satya hai!

  4. #24
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    Re: Suffering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ekoham View Post
    5. Devotee has quoted....
    "When He is all bright and shining, what is that is dark ? When He is all that Good alone then what is it that is bad ? If there is something different from Lord Krishna then how can it be said, "Vasudevah sarvam iti" (Everything is Vasudeva alone" (BG 7.19) & how can one have this outlook, "Yo maam pashyati sarvatra sarvam cha mayi pashyati" (BG 6.30) ??
    Unquote

    Namaste Devotee, a Jnani like you posting such question surprised me. As explained above there is nothing that is different than Vasudevah.

    "Vasudevah (pure consciousness) sarvam iti" is the Truth and I am quiet sure you too don't have any doubt about it.
    Only a person who is truly self-realized can have this view of "Sarvam Khalvidam Brahmam" which is explained by Lord Krishna as "Yo maam pashyati sarvatra..........".

    What is the true sign of a self-realized person "There is no difference of any kind that remains between him and others, he sees the expansion of his true self everywhere thus he sees himself only".

    Similarly a true devotee of Lord when attains the true grace of the lord and sees him within, he sees the lord everywhere because "Vasudevah sarvam iti" thus Shloka from Bhagvad Gita Ch.6/30 holds good (Yo maam pashyati.....)
    Namaste Ekoham,

    First of all, please let me clarify here : "I am not a Jnani". I am a very ordinary disciple on the path of Jnan-yoga. If any wrong notion is created due to some of my postings here ... let it be negated here once for all.

    2nd, you have not understood the question. In chapter 10 of BG, Lord enumerates only those things which are the best ... the brighter/brightest side of this whole creation. He specifically mentions in verse 41 of chapter-10 :

    "Whatever is there endowed with extraordinary glory, attractiveness and vigour, know all that to be born of a fragment of My power."

    Why does he leave things which are not so bright i.e. not-so-good sort of ?
    Are they not Vasudeva ? Are they anyway different from Vasudeva ? If they are not different ... why none of things that Lord names in Chapter-10 as another form of Him alone is inferior .... not-so-good ?

    I am not seeking an answer here. That post was a rejoinder to post made by Pietro. Such questions are natural to arise. If it doesn't bother you there is no issue.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  5. #25
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    Re: Suffering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ekoham View Post
    Namaste Devotee, a Jnani like you posting such question surprised me. As explained above there is nothing that is different than Vasudevah.


    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    I was sort of expecting this question. I had the habit of reciting Bhagwad Gita to my mother when she was alive. While reciting and explaining chapter-10 of BG, she exclaimed :

    When He is all bright and shining, what is that is dark ? When He is all that Good alone then what is it that is bad ? If there is something different from Lord Krishna then how can it be said, "Vasudevah sarvam iti" (Everything is Vasudeva alone" (BG 7.19) & how can one have this outlook, "Yo maam pashyati sarvatra sarvam cha mayi pashyati" (BG 6.30) ??
    Ekoham, Devotee Beloved Mother have this question and it's a good question for those who are still trying to figure out this portion of the Truth. Maybe she even ask just to make her Beloved Son think some more? Mother's always doing that to Beloved children<3

    and to this question I try to answer in my simple way.

    To the brilliant powerful light of a light house the tiny candle seem so dark...

    To the good of a sunny day....the rainy may seem so bad?


    But, to one in a deep cave....the candle's light become tremendous.

    But to the parched earth, that rain is joyous, good blessing.

    Only perspective change...to know this Truth.

  6. #26
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    Re: Suffering?

    namaste Eko,
    I was thinking about the nature of God from dvaita point of view, specifically from Ramanuja school where Lord is separate from the jiva but jiva is dependent on the Lord. There is Lord, jiva and mateiral. Yet karma seems to be a separate entity existing eternally too. ?

    I don't know exactly what the cause of suffering is. I have been thinking about this a lot too but I have almost come to the conclusion that suffering is due to our own actions i.e. karma. But where did the initial karma come from and got attached to jiva? I don't know. That's a mystery I suppose.

    Is God only good? I don't know. Like Devotee said in BG Lord Krishna says he is the best of everything there is. He is the goodness in all things. So my question was then 'who' is the badness in all things? Is it Lord Krishna himself too? Maybe he is. Since upanishads say brahman is everything if taken literally it means brahman is then both evil and good, the best of the best yet worst of the worst too.

    If God is only good then who does 'not good' belong too? Logically it must all belong to God if there is only one entity called God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ekoham View Post
    Namaste Satay,

    WRT your OP, few important points need to be pondered upon..

    Ekoham
    satay

  7. #27
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    Re: Suffering?

    RE: Aham bramhasmi, tat tvam asi.
    Stealth belief in Advaita doctrine takes the edge off of any suffering, especially if the mind gets anchored firmly in the realm of Brahman. One develops detachment through advaita much sooner. Whereas the Dvaita school though leads one out of the suffering one has to endure it a bit longer as one is mandated to take a circuitous route. One needs to first place suffering at the feet of ishta devata, just so to gain divine sanction for ones own resolve/ fortitude.
    Per Vedas Brahman is both what is there and what is not there, the bad things and the resultant sufferings included, there is absolutely nothing beyond the realm of Brahman.
    It is a matter of debate if s/he/it is responsible for the minute by minute actions of jivas. IMHO it is unlikely, cause if it is so, then a part of his own, i.e. atman, dwelling in the jiva has no wiggle room to act. Without any independent thinking, just like all the robots /gadgets we create. Mind determines the course of our actions. They say atman and mind seem to be delinked, the latter evaporates along with body at the end of janma, on the other hand atman lives on and transcends into the next janma. Those who have atmans (stones and cars have none) have a serious responsibility to negotiate their earthly years with caution, after all they are the ones destined to merge with brahman, arent they. My 2 cents, Namaste.

  8. #28
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    Re: Suffering?

    I 100% believe gods experience suffering. I am not lying to you. Next time you say your prayers know that gods feels and understands you. Gods are human before they are gods. Everyone that is put on this planet or reborn will have to experience suffering. A good example is Rama.

    Iksvkave

  9. #29
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    Re: Suffering?

    namaste
    iksvakave, I am not sure about that. God tells us in Gita that he is beyond guna thus he cannot be part of the 'suffering' realm. But thanks for the post though.

    Quote Originally Posted by iksvakave View Post
    I 100% believe gods experience suffering. I am not lying to you. Next time you say your prayers know that gods feels and understands you. Gods are human before they are gods. Everyone that is put on this planet or reborn will have to experience suffering. A good example is Rama.

    Iksvkave
    satay

  10. #30
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    Re: Suffering?

    You might find it hard to believe this but gods experience suffering etc.
    I said take for example Rama. His life was filled with obstacles and challenges. In the end did he do justice for his wife? He faught for wife only to lose her again.

    Shiva's life is never portrayed as a pretty one. Listen to this song.
    This one has the lyrics.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxxhlJdq9JA

    Take for example story of vekateswara (vishnu). Lakshmi leaves him and comes to bhooloka.

    Gods are still in a human body. If they look like you and me you can't say they can't feel any suffering.

    You said, gita tells us he is beyond guna.

    What is guna according to you?
    Guna to me is qualities. Do you remember where you read this. I am intrigued.

    Iksvakave
    Last edited by iksvakave; 24 July 2011 at 07:11 PM.

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