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Thread: Suffering?

  1. #11
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    Re: Suffering?

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    Does God 'know' about or is aware of or can experience suffering, pain, darkness?

    If God is all good and infinite, beyond good and evil, I suspect he has no clue about 'suffering'. If he has no clue about suffering, he cannot possibly understand anyone's prayers asking him to eliminate their suffering.

    Since he can't experience pain and suffering, he cannot be empathatic to jiva i.e. he cannot relate to our suffering and pain that we experience in this world. No?

    What do you think?
    I think the manifest God can know what pain and suffering, and joy are and experience them. Just look at the stories of the devas and devis. They have a lot of human-like qualities. Lord Krishna tried to stop the war between the Pandavas and the Kauravas. So He must have felt remorse and compassion for what He knew was coming.

    God is things we don't understand. God must know what goes on in the universe(s) and why. So I think knowing and experiencing wrt unmanifest God are two different things.

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    As I think about it, this is indeed the HARD problem of religion ~ why does an omni-benevolent/scient/potent God allow evil/suffering in the world? Christianity/Islam have come up with many theodicies to explain this but many fall short.
    The Christian position, at least of the RCC and EOC is that when God gave man free will, God promised to keep hands-off and let the chips fall where they may, based on man's choice(s). I've seen it written somewhere called "the pact". Since man chose to disobey God, God told man he's on his own now, but as a show of good faith he would send a redeemer.

    Do I believe all this? Of course not. That's why I'm not Christian, Jewish or Muslim.

    If Christians saw Hitler in heaven, they will probably be dumbstruck and suffer from unimaginable levels of cognitive dissonance about their non-comprehensibility of their own God. By what standard of justice could Hitler have made it to heaven?
    The Christian position is that if even on one's deathbead, that person genuinely repents and accepts God, he will be saved. As far as those souls in Heaven having a myocardial infarction over seeing Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, et al in Heaven, it's a non-issue. Their position is that God is the only judge and has judged. The only emotion is one of bliss at being in the presence of and united with God, there is no other feeling. What I bolded is the only thing I can think of that comes anywhere near to our belief in moksha.

    Again, this is the teaching of the RCC and EOC (and probably Anglican), not my beliefs. I don't know about Protestant denominations. So don't shoot the messenger.
    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

  2. #12
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    Re: Suffering?

    Namaste,

    This issue was actually one of the first reasons why I started searching and came upon HDF last year, as I had asked in this post of mine.

    Agreed with the above posts, especially that by wundermonk ji. Not only do I think that whatever happens is due to our own karma, but that nothing is inherently good or evil - those are mostly just labels applied on events by people, according to their own perspective. I remember a story from my school days, where a man soundly sleeping in his house at night is badly injured by a single brick falling from the old ceiling of his house. While being taken away to the hospital, he grumbles and wonders why he was having to undergo such physical and mental suffering. In the wee hours of the morning, the entire roof collapsed - he's have been killed if he was still in his bed. Could the first instance be called good, or bad? Food for thought.

    Also, I feel that all the "Why did God let <insert painful incident> happen?" questions rely on the assumption that God is an entity separate from us, that He is like a third party watching everything from the sky. Not only do I believe that it all comes down to karma, but I feel God is always there with us, within us at every moment.
    Fully aware of the deficiency of my intelligence, I concentrate my attention on the son of Pavana,
    And humbly ask for strength, intelligence and true knowledge to relieve me of all painful blemishes.

  3. #13
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    Re: Suffering?

    Pranam Satay

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    Namaste,
    I have been wondering about this for a few weeks now...thought to share and get your comments.

    Does God 'know' about or is aware of or can experience suffering, pain, darkness? If God is all good and infinite, beyond good and evil, I suspect he has no clue about 'suffering'. If he has no clue about suffering, he cannot possibly understand anyone's prayers asking him to eliminate their suffering.

    Since he can't experience pain and suffering, he cannot be empathatic to jiva i.e. he cannot relate to our suffering and pain that we experience in this world. No?

    What do you think?
    If he is not aware then he can't be called omniscient.

    what i think does not matter, let us see what Lord Krishna says;

    mam upetya punar janma
    duhkhalayam asasvatam

    napnuvanti mahatmanah

    samsiddhim paramam gatah


    After attaining Me the great souls never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection. (8.15)

    There is no question he does not know suffering or he can't mitigate devotee's prayers.

    Jai Shre Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  4. #14
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    Re: Suffering?

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namast&#233;

    this suffering is a very human thing. The wise say pain in life is inevitable, but suffering is optional. Why would this be? If we look at this, pain is of the body, suffering is of the mind. We can consider suffering a level of torment on the mind.
    If the mind is reduced to ashes ( via one's spiritual pursuit) then where can suffering reside ? How can a fire ignite if there is no place for it to exist?

    So now the question... what is the purpose of this suffering? First lets ask, is there anything that is in this world that does not have a use , a purpose ? Even pain. Pain tells the ~user~ you are going in the wrong direction. I put my hand in fire and get burned - pain says this is some thing you do not want to do again.

    So the question - what is the purpose of suffering or mental agony ?

    praām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Suffering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk View Post
    Namaste,

    This issue was actually one of the first reasons why I started searching and came upon HDF last year, as I had asked in this post of mine.

    Agreed with the above posts, especially that by wundermonk ji. Not only do I think that whatever happens is due to our own karma, but that nothing is inherently good or evil - those are mostly just labels applied on events by people, according to their own perspective. I remember a story from my school days, where a man soundly sleeping in his house at night is badly injured by a single brick falling from the old ceiling of his house. While being taken away to the hospital, he grumbles and wonders why he was having to undergo such physical and mental suffering. In the wee hours of the morning, the entire roof collapsed - he's have been killed if he was still in his bed. Could the first instance be called good, or bad? Food for thought.

    Also, I feel that all the "Why did God let <insert painful incident> happen?" questions rely on the assumption that God is an entity separate from us, that He is like a third party watching everything from the sky. Not only do I believe that it all comes down to karma, but I feel God is always there with us, within us at every moment.
    Ok, but that's the optimistic story, it's "easy" to see God in it. With some people the hospital ceiling would collapse, and there would be no escape...

    Seeing God in that version is the tricky part, I presume.

    It just shows how we're so partial about God. Perhaps our departure is the right order of things. It will be good for everyone, it will promote growth for our relatives. But our suffering towards death is always egoistical.

    From the little suffering I incurred in this life regarding loss, all I could observe was that I wanted to enjoy more the presence of the person. The person's suffering meant next to nothing to my mine.

    It's when I start to delve mentally into these subjects that I see that the sages, the holy men, are the ones that really love us all. They are offering us a chance to overcome this all, oferring us the only real solution. Dedicating a life to this is the ultimate proof of love. They are truly great souls and for that I stand in awe.

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namast&#233;

    this suffering is a very human thing. The wise say pain in life is inevitable, but suffering is optional. Why would this be? If we look at this, pain is of the body, suffering is of the mind. We can consider suffering a level of torment on the mind.
    If the mind is reduced to ashes ( via one's spiritual pursuit) then where can suffering reside ? How can a fire ignite if there is no place for it to exist?

    So now the question... what is the purpose of this suffering? First lets ask, is there anything that is in this world that does not have a use , a purpose ? Even pain. Pain tells the ~user~ you are going in the wrong direction. I put my hand in fire and get burned - pain says this is some thing you do not want to do again.

    So the question - what is the purpose of suffering or mental agony ?

    praām
    Very wise, thank you Yajvan.

  6. #16
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    Re: Suffering?

    Pranam

    Another incidence comes to mind on the subject of suffering, Mother Kunta,
    When Lord Krishna was leaving for Dwarka

    He said O deer Aunt Please receive a boon from me. I am here to fulfil your wishes.

    Kuntaji said give me suffering during each step of my life
    , Lord Shree Krishna answered, O Dear aunt People in the world beg for pleasures in their life, but you have begged for suffering! Why?
    O Keshava! Your remembrance is far more during times of suffering than in the days of pleasure and happiness. I want never to forget you!

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  7. #17
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    Re: Suffering?

    Namaste,
    Thank you all for the feedback. My question is not about suffering but about nature of god. If god is all things that are good he cannot know about things that are not good.

    Lord Krishna says in gita that he is the goodness in all things. Thus my point is that god since he is only goodness he is not aware of things that are not good. Or so it seems logically?
    satay

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    Re: Suffering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pietro Impagliazzo View Post
    Ok, but that's the optimistic story, it's "easy" to see God in it. With some people the hospital ceiling would collapse, and there would be no escape...

    Seeing God in that version is the tricky part, I presume.
    Indeed. I wasn't offering the "it's all God's plan" explanation or anything, but just mentioning that it's a bit hard to definitively put everything in good and bad sections.

    And I too really look upto our sages in these matters; they never cease to amaze me.
    Fully aware of the deficiency of my intelligence, I concentrate my attention on the son of Pavana,
    And humbly ask for strength, intelligence and true knowledge to relieve me of all painful blemishes.

  9. #19
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    Re: Suffering?

    Namaste satay,

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    My question is not about suffering but about nature of god. If god is all things that are good he cannot know about things that are not good.

    Lord Krishna says in gita that he is the goodness in all things. Thus my point is that god since he is only goodness he is not aware of things that are not good. Or so it seems logically?
    You have used a logical conclusion herein above which I have underlined and made in bold letters.

    There is a catch when we apply logic. All logical process of drawing a conclusion starts with certain axioms. We are so much conditioned into living within the environment which take those axioms as the Truth that we are unable to see any possibility where these axioms don't hold good.

    "God doesn't suffer and so he shouldn't be aware of "what suffering is like"" ..... this conclusion is based on our thinking that we cannot know the pain or joy of being in a situation unless experience it ourselves. This axiom is ok for our world but doesn't apply to God. Upanishad says, "Eshah Sarvajnah" .... He knows everything. Does He know the taste of a mango without tasting it ? Yes. Does He know how it feels when pricked by a pin without having any experience of being pricked with a pin ? Yes.

    His "knowledge" is not based on "experience" or being told by someone ... as it happens to us. It is without any such conditions. He Knows ... & that is all. It is unconditional.

    That has to be understood. And there lies the answer to your question.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  10. #20
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    Re: Suffering?

    namaste devotee,
    Your post actually hit the nail right on its head.
    Thank you very much for this.

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Upanishad says, "Eshah Sarvajnah" .... He knows everything. Does He know the taste of a mango without tasting it ? Yes. Does He know how it feels when pricked by a pin without having any experience of being pricked with a pin ? Yes.

    His "knowledge" is not based on "experience" or being told by someone ... as it happens to us. It is without any such conditions. He Knows ... & that is all. It is unconditional.

    That has to be understood. And there lies the answer to your question.

    OM
    satay

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