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Thread: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

  1. #11

    Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

    Quote Originally Posted by simex View Post
    Who would win in a fight, a minotaur with a battle axe, or a centaur with a crossbow?

    Whichever holds your imagination better! I'm partial to centaurs, myself....

    good question
    Om Hrim Kshraum Ugram Veeram Maha-Vishnum, Jwalantham Sarvatho Mukham Nrisimham Bheeshanam Bhadram Mrityu-Mrityum Namaamyaham

    Follower of Śeṣanaaga

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    Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naomi Ningishzidda View Post
    ..if we are speaking of totality, is there even a two to speak of? No.
    Absolutely Correct !

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  3. Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottMalaysia View Post
    For the past 7 months, I have seen myself as a Vaishnava, believing that Lord Krishna is the Supreme Lord. However, I have recently found myself drawn back towards Saivism, or mainly the worship of Lord Ganesha.
    Scott,

    There are a lot of "scriptures" that seem to say a number of different things about God, spirituality, the purpose of life, etc, even under the general umbrella of "Hinduism." However, not all of them are derived from the same authority. The real question is, what do you ultimately accept as authoritative? If something being written in Sanskrit is by the very fact authoritative to you, then you will never come up with a consisent answer about God.

    The people who say that accepting Advaita will resolve such contradictions aren't answering your question. They are sideswiping it. If Vishnu and Shiva are the same, then how does one interpret all those stories where Vishnu and Shiva are depicted as two separate beings? No sensible explanation will be forthcoming for that one.

    In general, most classical Hindu traditions will state at the outset what sources they deem to be authoritative. For example most traditions at least theoretically accept the Vedas. Many will accept the Itihasas and Puranas to the extent that they do not contradict the Vedas. From there, you would have to see which position most consistently and clearly explains the accepted evidence.

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    Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

    Quote Originally Posted by raghu_001 View Post
    If Vishnu and Shiva are the same, then how does one interpret all those stories where Vishnu and Shiva are depicted as two separate beings? No sensible explanation will be forthcoming for that one.
    Namaste Raghu,

    The thought that there is a difference is the mighty illusion. One appears as many & the many actually is One.

    How is it possible ? I don't know how but I can give you an example where one apparently appear as many :

    Let's take a situation when you are dreaming. There are many characters in the dream. The characters are playing a role which has never happened in your waking life so it is not just a playing of old records .... they play different roles just like an individual in real life ... no one knows what they are going to do the next moment.

    Now, let's analyse this situation :

    a) Are these characters real ? If not, how they act independently without the knowledge of even the dreamer what they are going to do the next moment ? Can an illusionary character act on its own ?
    b) Are they different from the dreamer ? It cannot be because there is no one except the dream & the dreamer.
    c) How can one dreamer acts like the dreamer, the person who acts like him in the dream & the other characters of the dream ?

    The above situation appears impossible logically but this is what happens every night when you dream.

    Did you get answer to your question ?

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  5. Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste Raghu,

    The thought that there is a difference is the mighty illusion. One appears as many & the many actually is One.

    How is it possible ? I don't know how but I can give you an example where one apparently appear as many :

    Let's take a situation when you are dreaming. There are many characters in the dream. The characters are playing a role which has never happened in your waking life so it is not just a playing of old records .... they play different roles just like an individual in real life ... no one knows what they are going to do the next moment.

    Now, let's analyse this situation :

    a) Are these characters real ? If not, how they act independently without the knowledge of even the dreamer what they are going to do the next moment ? Can an illusionary character act on its own ?
    b) Are they different from the dreamer ? It cannot be because there is no one except the dream & the dreamer.
    c) How can one dreamer acts like the dreamer, the person who acts like him in the dream & the other characters of the dream ?

    The above situation appears impossible logically but this is what happens every night when you dream.

    Did you get answer to your question ?

    OM
    Namaste devotee,

    The basic premise of your thinking is that life is an illusion. Such a position is not logically sound. If everything we experience is illusion, then this renders pointless any attempt to postulate anything about reality, since even these attempts are also illusion!

    Furthermore, there is nothing about illusion that points to homogenous, unvariegated reality. Just as the illusion of water presupposes real water somewhere, the illusion of variety presupposes that variety may also be inherent in reality.

    Vishnu and Shiva are not illusions. The scriptures treat them as real and distinct beings. Merely postulating without evidence that (1) they are both different forms of One Reality because (2) everything we experience is illusion - does not flow logically.

    regards,

    Raghu

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    Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

    Quote Originally Posted by raghu_001 View Post
    Namaste devotee,

    The basic premise of your thinking is that life is an illusion. Such a position is not logically sound. If everything we experience is illusion, then this renders pointless any attempt to postulate anything about reality, since even these attempts are also illusion!

    Furthermore, there is nothing about illusion that points to homogenous, unvariegated reality. Just as the illusion of water presupposes real water somewhere, the illusion of variety presupposes that variety may also be inherent in reality.

    Vishnu and Shiva are not illusions. The scriptures treat them as real and distinct beings. Merely postulating without evidence that (1) they are both different forms of One Reality because (2) everything we experience is illusion - does not flow logically.

    regards,

    Raghu
    Namaste Raghu,

    Perhaps you didn't read my post carefully. I have not tried to say anything on the basis of "life is an illusion" theory (though it is the Truth).

    I have given you a day-to-day experience in our life to ponder which can lead to the answer that you are seeking.

    It is another question whether Life is an Illusion. First of all, there is a lot of confusion over the word, "Illusion", that I have noticed. Let's be careful here :
    What we see is Illusion, what we touch is Illusion, all our perception of a thing is illusory. However, it doesn't mean that the thing we perceive doesn't exist ( though "existence" again is a relative term & has no absolute meaning ..... but let us use it due to lack of words sufficient for our discussion).

    How what we see or touch etc. is illusion ? Let's take another example : There is a cup in front of you with a particular shape ... it is solid ... made of glass .... green coloured etc. etc. Now, you see that it is solid ... but if you go the sub-atomic levels ... the cup which looks absolutely solid is 99.99 % space ! So, you should have seen the space with hardly anything solid in it ... but you don't see this reality, do you ? If it is 99.99% space ... may be 100% because it is due to our limitations that we don't know whether the remaining part is space or anything else .... then everything around it is also the same ... now where are its limits ? ... where is the shape being formed ? We also see that the color of the cup is green .... what is color BTW ? Color is the perception in our mind when an electromagnetic wave of a certain wavelength falls in our eyes ... so, color is related with the frequency of vibration of the electromagnetic wave which is again related with the wavelength of the wave .... where does the color come here ? Where is the color ? ... how the vibration of a field related with color ... there actually is no color ... it is only perceived in our mind. That is why same colors are seen by different people (You must have known color blind people) / animals differently. Let's come to touch ... do you really touch anything ? You cannot touch anything because no two atoms can come closer than a certain distance ... so, there is nothing like touching that you perceive.

    Please ponder over the above. I have not taken shelter under the theory that everything is an illusion. I have pointed out the scientific facts which can be verified & which leads us to conclude that whatever we perceive with our sense organs is due to our mind & not because the Reality is like that.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

    Quote Originally Posted by raghu_001 View Post
    Namaste devotee,

    Furthermore, there is nothing about illusion that points to homogenous, unvariegated reality. Raghu
    Namaste Raghu,

    Shri Krishna and Vedas indeed teach of partless and saman Brahman. It is a different matter that some do not consider the immutable saman Brahman (termed in Brihadaraynaka Upanishad as the sea to which the asva, the mind called Universe is rooted) as the foundation of all that is that will be and that was.

    Shri Krishna also tecahes us that the saman Brahman is the object of knowledge. But again some say that we are not interested-- since it must be very boring. This is the illusion that the variety perceived by the senses is greater than the saman Brahman that enables the senses to perceive and that is the joy. It is illusion that the joy inheres in the perceived objects and not in the subject.

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

    Quote Originally Posted by mithya View Post
    Advaitins believe that Vishnu is the superior most entity as far as this conventional reality is concerned. That's why they believe only Vishnu and no other entity can give liberation. They don't believe that Vishnu and Shiva are one and the same. This is a distortion made by neo-Vedantins.
    Please do not claim on behalf of advaitins. It is known to most that Shankara established worship of five deities.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  9. Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste Raghu,

    Perhaps you didn't read my post carefully. I have not tried to say anything on the basis of "life is an illusion" theory (though it is the Truth).

    I have given you a day-to-day experience in our life to ponder which can lead to the answer that you are seeking.

    It is another question whether Life is an Illusion. First of all, there is a lot of confusion over the word, "Illusion", that I have noticed. Let's be careful here :
    What we see is Illusion, what we touch is Illusion, all our perception of a thing is illusory. However, it doesn't mean that the thing we perceive doesn't exist ( though "existence" again is a relative term & has no absolute meaning ..... but let us use it due to lack of words sufficient for our discussion).
    Namaste devotee,

    I am sure you are trying your best to understand, but I must point out to you that your explanation above is internally inconsistent and even self-contradictory.

    Something is either real or it is it not real. It cannot be both real and not real. Misunderstanding the reality of something does not mean that our perceptions are illusion. However, our conclusions based on perception may or may not be correct. Now regarding your example:

    How what we see or touch etc. is illusion ? Let's take another example : There is a cup in front of you with a particular shape ... it is solid ... made of glass .... green coloured etc. etc. Now, you see that it is solid ... but if you go the sub-atomic levels ... the cup which looks absolutely solid is 99.99 % space ! So, you should have seen the space with hardly anything solid in it ... but you don't see this reality, do you ?
    THis is not a good example to illustrate your position, because the incorrect understanding of the cup has nothing to do with illusion nor with illusory perception. Your sensory perception that the cup is solid, has a particular shape, is made of glass, etc is all correct, but is limited only to the gross appearance of the cup and is thus *limited.* That the senses are limited does not make them or their perception illusory. Rather, the conclusion that it is solid and not having space at the subatomic level is due to incorrect deduction based on real information gained through real (but limited) senses.

    However, all of this is besides the point, because our knowledge of Vishnu and Shiva comes not from sensory perception nor from logical deduction but rather from shaastra. Shaastras are shabda-pramaana and different from pratyaksha or anumaan (perception and deduction). Thus if shaastras say that Vishnu and Shiva are different, then this is the testimony of shaastra and not based on our limited or supposedly illusory perception.

    Please try to understand these points correctly. Pratyaksha, anumaan, and shabda all have their place when being utilized to understand Reality. But they are not all on the same level. When discussing subjects that are beyond the immediate purview of the senses, we cannot invoke a source that is based on sensory perception - this is why we have the shaastras. Shruti is not based on perception of some sages but rather is eternal truth. If shruti is relative and based only on sense perception then its validity is not much greater than one's own sense perception and it would not be useful for telling us about that which is beyond the senses.

  10. Re: Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu - Who is Supreme?

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Namaste Raghu,

    Shri Krishna and Vedas indeed teach of partless and saman Brahman. It is a different matter that some do not consider the immutable saman Brahman (termed in Brihadaraynaka Upanishad as the sea to which the asva, the mind called Universe is rooted) as the foundation of all that is that will be and that was.

    Shri Krishna also tecahes us that the saman Brahman is the object of knowledge. But again some say that we are not interested-- since it must be very boring. This is the illusion that the variety perceived by the senses is greater than the saman Brahman that enables the senses to perceive and that is the joy. It is illusion that the joy inheres in the perceived objects and not in the subject.

    Om
    Namaste Atanu,

    It might help my analysis of your writings if you could define your terms, i.e. what do you mean by "saman Brahman?" Furthermore, as you seem to be making a lot of assertions about illusion, variety, etc, it would also help if you could specify what you consider to be appropriate sources of knowledge so that we can refer to them (assuming we agree on them).

    If we do not accept the same pramaanas then any discussion on this subject would be somewhat pointless.

    Also, I am still not clear on what any of this has to do with the subject of Vishnu and Shiva. Perhaps you can steer the discussion back in that direction.

    regards,

    Raghu

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