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Thread: Adharma

  1. #11

    Re: Adharma

    Dear Friend,

    "Remember even in case of Jaya and Vijaya who were cursed by Sanat Kumars to take birth as humans for 7 lives as devotees?

    But they did not want to be away from Vaikuntha for so long and took the other choice of having to take 3 births that were Anti Vishnu and we had Hiranyakasha./Hiranyakashipu...Ravan/Kumbhakaran...Shishupala/Dantavakra combination.

    So they chose to be Anti Vishnu in 3 births so that they can reach Vaikuntha once again as soon as possible."


    Can you please let me know in which sacred book this has been written?
    The reason i ask you this is that a few great puranas completely differ from what you are saying....also your statement that one can choose is completely contradicted at many places....so can you please clarify where it is written that Jaya and Vijaya chose 3 births instead on 7?

    Note: If the OP feels that this discussion is going out of topic, I apologize and will not continue this topic in this thread.
    Last edited by SanathanaDharma; 25 July 2014 at 08:42 AM.

  2. #12
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    Re: Adharma

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by SanathanaDharma View Post
    Can you please let me know in which sacred book this has been written?
    The reason i ask you this is that a few great puranas completely differ from what you are saying....also your statement that one can choose is completely contradicted at many places....so can you please clarify where it is written that Jaya and Vijaya chose 3 births instead on 7?

    Note: If the OP feels that this discussion is going out of topic, I apologize and will not continue this topic in this thread.

    This is a reasonable request to ask ( of anyone ) on HDF... does one have a basis for saying what they say ? Can they offer the śāstra it comes from ? It is not a challenge... many times I ask so I can read the actual śloka-s and see if my comprehension is the same.

    Now if a person does not have this information and they offer it as their opinion or their conjecture that too is fine as long as the reader knows this and the author offers this as a disclosure. It is quite valid, but allows the reader to then discern the comments accordingly.

    iti śiva
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  3. #13
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    Re: Adharma

    Quote Originally Posted by SanathanaDharma View Post
    Dear Friend,

    "Remember even in case of Jaya and Vijaya who were cursed by Sanat Kumars to take birth as humans for 7 lives as devotees?

    But they did not want to be away from Vaikuntha for so long and took the other choice of having to take 3 births that were Anti Vishnu and we had Hiranyakasha./Hiranyakashipu...Ravan/Kumbhakaran...Shishupala/Dantavakra combination.

    So they chose to be Anti Vishnu in 3 births so that they can reach Vaikuntha once again as soon as possible."


    Can you please let me know in which sacred book this has been written?
    The reason i ask you this is that a few great puranas completely differ from what you are saying....also your statement that one can choose is completely contradicted at many places....so can you please clarify where it is written that Jaya and Vijaya chose 3 births instead on 7?

    Note: If the OP feels that this discussion is going out of topic, I apologize and will not continue this topic in this thread.
    Namaste,

    I write mostly from memory and this I read from a book I read really long ago.It was from an ISCKON text and also another Non ISCKON text.

    Anyway I managed to find this online for you:

    There are multiple versions of the story that is:

    1)One says that they chose 3 demonic births when given the option by Lord Vishnu as in this which is also in Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna.


    According to a story from Bhagavata Purana, the Four Kumaras, Sanaka, Sanandana, Sanatana, and Sanatkumara who are the manasaputras of Brahma (sons born from the mind or thought power of Brahma), visited Vaikuntha, the abode of Vishnu, to see him.

    Due to the strength of their tapas, the four Kumaras appear to be mere children, though they are of great age. Jaya and Vijaya, the gate keepers of the Vaikuntha interrupt the Kumaras at the gate, thinking them to be children. They also tell the Kumaras that Sri Vishnu is resting and that they cannot see him now. The enraged Kumaras replied Jaya and Vijaya that Vishnu is available for his devotees any time, and cursed both the keepers Jaya and Vijaya, that they would have to give up their divinity, be born as mortals on Earth (bhuloka, or physical plane), and live like normal human beings. Vishnu appeared before them, and the gatekeepers requested Vishnu to lift the curse of the Kumaras. Vishnu says curse of Kumaras cannot be reversed. Instead, he gives Jaya and Vijaya two options. The first option is to take seven births on Earth as a devotee of Vishnu, while the second is to take three births as his enemy. After serving either of these sentences, they can re-attain their stature at Vaikuntha and be with him permanently. Jaya and Vijaya cannot bear the thought of staying away from Vishnu for seven lives. As a result, they choose to be born three times on Earth even though it would have to be as enemies of Vishnu. (This story is also used as a metaphor about the cost of committing transgressions in "The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna".)

    2nd version is this..where Lord Vishnu advises them to accept 3 births instead of 7.

    This is the ISCKON version:



    The Lord then ordered Jaya and Vijaya, "Depart from here, but do not be afraid. I could have nullified the brahmanas' curse, but I chose not to do so. Lakshmi, whom you had once stopped at the gate while I was sleeping, already predicted your fall. Although seven births in the material world are your designated punishment, I want you to accept three demoniac births instead. By practicing mystic yoga in anger, you will become quickly cleansed of your sinful reactions, and thus be able to return to Me in a very short time."

    http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/page...ce-day-of-lord


    My reply might take sometime to appear to you because my posts need to cleared by moderator before its allowed to be posted..so sorry for delay in response.

  4. #14

    Re: Adharma

    Dear Friend,

    Thanks for sparing your time to reply to my question.
    As the OP has not raised any objection, I shall continue in this thread...

    A major problem with most of the people who want to understand Sanathana Dharma is that for some reason best known to them, majority of them do not want to learn Sanskrit and they just go by English meanings [not word to word translations] found usually on the internet....I have seen so many on this forum also, who keep the English meanings found online as their foundation and continue to make arguments....[no offense meant to anyone]

    Its like seeing an extremely delicious delicacy on a TV Cooking Show, while the anchor explains to you how the dish tastes....
    irrespective of how good or bad the TV person is explaining you the dish, its only when your tongue tastes the dish personally, you will
    experience, understand and enjoy the dish...

    The first version which you have presented very clearly states Bhagavata as source....the second version is from ISCKON[ I will not comment on that....]

    So...let's get back to Bhagavata.....

    The third canto has this detailed conversation

    After the four saints curse Jaya and Vijaya,
    3.15.36

    bhūyād aghoni bhagavadbhir akāri daṇḍo
     yo nau hareta sura-helanam apy aśeṣam
    mā vo ’nutāpa-kalayā bhagavat-smṛti-ghno
     moho bhaved iha tu nau vrajator adho ’dhaḥ


    very rough translation...
    It suites us that you have punished us for our bad deed of dis-respecting Noble people like you...
    we repent our wrong doing and request you to show compassion at us by making us not forget Sri Maha Vishnu
    out of moha [illusion] which exists in plenty in those lower planetary systems where we will be going....


    Please note very carefully here...after committing the offence, both Jaya and Vijaya, immediately realize that...and with the noble nature they actually had, they asked for only one wish....which actually shows how great those two devotees are...irrespective of which lower life they take up, they want to make sure that they do not forget Sri Hari...how beautiful is their thought....because of such purity in their thought, 3.15.37

    Sri Maha Vishnu with Sri Maha Lakshmi arrive immediately at that spot....and then there is an excellent conversation between Sriman Narayana and the four sages...[which I will not get into here..although its really good one]....

    and then at the end Sri Vaasudeva says 3.16.12

    tan me sva-bhartur avasāyam alakṣamāṇau
     yuṣmad-vyatikrama-gatiṁ pratipadya sadyaḥ
    bhūyo mamāntikam itāṁ tad anugraho me
     yat kalpatām acirato bhṛtayor vivāsaḥ


    [very rough translation] These two have committed a wrong deed without understanding the intention of Mine [which is not to stop anyone from seeing Him]..
    [but because they are very good devotees] I request a favor from you to make their stay outside Vaikunta as short as possible and they
    may return back here soon....


    The four saints, then again have another excellent conversation [may be for another thread...] and at the end they say...3.16.25

    yaṁ vānayor damam adhīśa bhavān vidhatte
     vṛttiṁ nu vā tad anumanmahi nirvyalīkam
    asmāsu vā ya ucito dhriyatāṁ sa daṇḍo
     ye ’nāgasau vayam ayuṅkṣmahi kilbiṣeṇa


    We pray that whatever dandha [punishment] you would give these two or also to us [for cursing them], we shall completely adhere to it...

    So...here actually,

    -Jaya and Vijaya were cursed to go to those lower planets where Rajas and Tamasa gunas are in abundance as they did not deserve a place in Vaikunta where such gunas are forbid...
    - Jaya and Vijaya requested that irrespective of which lower life they will get, they should not forget Sri Hari
    - Sri Maha Vishna said that they deserved this but they will go away only for a short time
    - The four saints agreed to whatever Lord says...


    now....there is another place in Bhagavata where the same story is being narrated..
    7.1.39

    evaṁ śaptau sva-bhavanāt
     patantau tau kṛpālubhiḥ
    proktau punar janmabhir vāṁ
     tribhir lokāya kalpatām


    Here is the place where it says..very rough translation...

    After being cursed, when Jaya and Vijaya were about to fall down to the lower worlds, the merciful four saints told them
    "punar janmabhir vaam tribhir"...after three births, you will come back to your location [Vaikunta]

    So...with all the above mentioned shlokas [hymns] from Bhagavata, its very clear that Jaya and Vijaya did not have any choice....
    But in case you still find a sacred book where its clearly written..please do let me know...as that will be very interesting...
    Last edited by SanathanaDharma; 28 July 2014 at 03:48 AM.

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    Re: Adharma

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