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Thread: rāmāyaṇa insights

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    rāmāyaṇa insights

    hari o
    ~~~~~~


    namasté

    One of the great itihāsa-s इतिहास is the rāmāyaṇa or rāma + ayaṇa :
    • rāma राम - pleasing , pleasant , charming , lovely , beautiful. One root is ram - to delight , make happy
      • rā is acquiring , possessing , yet as a noun it is splendor, luster. That is why 'rā' and ravi रवि is associated with the Sun. And what then is Sunday? ravidina , Sunday .
    • ayaṇa अयन = the path, or road; course or place of refuge, progress or manner.
    Hence the rāmāyaṇa is that path, or course that brings one to rāma.

    So it would seem to me a better understanding of the story of the rāmāyaṇa would serve one wisely. Questions then become :
    • who really is rāma ?
    • who is sīta and rāvaṇa ? That is, what principles do they represent?
    • and rāma's brothers ? and rāvaṇa's brothers ?
    • and hanuman-ji ?
    • What is the symbol of the forest-time He spent ?
    • etc.
    Perhaps those that have interest in participating in this conversation can bring some their definitions and ideas to this string. I encourage all to bring their knowing but avoid dumping too much information at one time. We wish not to drink water out of a fire hose, but prefer to sip it by the glass.

    If I may let me offer this regarding rāmāḥ...

    The adyātma rāmāyaṇa ( bālakanda section) informs us, rāmāḥ is the Supreme Self, distinct from prakṛti. He is the one all-comprehending Being who is the Spirit Supreme. He is not separate from you, He is not another, to be looked for on the 'outside' of you. He is you at your core, the Supreme Self; He is your own true Self.

    Now we can look at the rāmāyaṇa from a different point of view:
    the rāmāyaṇa is about the path (ayaṇa) to your own Self ( rāmaḥ).

    I hope to see other's post and their contributions to this string.


    praṇām


    words
    • rāma = noun for varuṇa
    • rāma = a kind of deer; a horse ; a lover; pleasure , joy , delight
    • rāmā = a beautiful woman , any young and charming woman , mistress , wife , any woman ; red earth ; a kind of pigment; a river;
    • rāmā = a kind of metre i.e. (in music) a kind of measure.
    • rāmī =darkness , night
    Last edited by yajvan; 05 November 2011 at 10:45 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  2. #2
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    Re: rāmāyaṇa insights

    Vannakam Yajvan,

    I recently completed teh Griffith Translation and by extension have a (probably) very limited understanding of your questions but to answer those bullet pointed

    --Rama is the son of Dasharatha, 7th incarnation of Lord Vishnu

    --His brothers are Bharat, Lakshman and Satrughna, (Lakshman being his most faithful brother and also being a reincarnation of Vishnu's Steed Sushena)

    --Sita is daughter of Janak born of mother earth, Sita's wife, she is the ideal woman, wife, etc. She is the incarnation of Lakshmi

    --Ravana is by no means a pure villain but does have some arrogance, he is an non-ideal leader, versed in the vedas and upanishads, he represents misuse of knowledge and power, he is a devotee of Shiva

    --Ravana's brothers (whom I remember) Are the nearly unslayable and Strong Kumbhakarna, and Vibhishan who switches sides to Rama and ultimately becomes king of the ravaged lanka

    --Hanuman is a Vanar and represents the ideal friend, he is the 11th or 12th (can't remember) Incarnation of Shiva.

    --I believe the time in the forest is meant to represent meditation and abstention from Kama or pleasure, learn the meaning of reality through those things but of course that is my interpretation,

    I hope I have contributed adequately to the conversation

    Namaste

  3. #3
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    Re: rāmāyaṇa insights

    Excuse me if my analysis is a little elementary in its understandings

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    Re: rāmāyaṇa insights

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~


    namasté Eric,

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric11235 View Post
    Excuse me if my analysis is a little elementary in its understandings
    Your contributions are always warmly welcomed... perhaps in this string we will offer you some deeper insights on all the personalities mentioned above.

    you mention,
    --Rama is the son of Dasharatha, 7th incarnation of Lord Vishnu
    Yes, this is mentioned often. Yet if we look to an authoritative book, the śrīmad bhāgavata mahāpurāṇa, it calls out śrī rāma as visnu's 18th avatāra. Here is the reference : http://bhagavata.org/canto1/chapter3.html

    I am hoping we will look into the symbols and meaning behind the personalities found in the rāmāyaṇa . Let me offer an example.

    We know of rāvaṇa . This name means causing to cry as rava is a roar , yell , cry , howl; rāva is rooted in ru - a cry , shriek , roar , yell.

    Yet we are told he is also called daśagrīva ( some write daśagṝva) daśa + grīva is 10 + neck, or said another way 10 headed. Now what are the 10 heads?


    They are the symbols for the 5 sense organs and the 5 organs of action or combined the world of the senses. That is why rāvaṇa is ~opposed~ to śrī rām in the story. Rāvaṇa or daśagṝva is outward facing, to the world at large, the world of diversity; śrī rām is inward facing to the unity of spirit. It is telling us as humans there is the outward pull of the world of diversity that is around us, and there is the inward life of silence and perfection within us. As humans there is this field of life the human-condition can operate within - the movable and immovable.

    We see this theme in the bhāgavad gītā. Kṛṣṇa's conversation with arjun takes place in the ~middle~ of the battle field. Arjuna addresses Kṛṣṇa as acyuta defined as firm , imperishable , permanent. We can look at it this way, a + cyutá - 'a' = not + 'cyuta' = moved, shaken or fallen i.e. not fallen. It suggests not fallen from Divine status ( some say into the re-birth of man). He is the imperishable, the immovable, invincible. Hence Brahman, Divine Being, just like śrī rām.

    This field of action is that of diversity, of the senses, of daśagṝva. The immovable is the field of śrī rām or kṛṣṇa . So, rāvaṇa is that 'field' where there is crying and cause for weeping as life and diversity is heaped upon humans; Yet there is the Infinite in our-Selves that of rāmāḥ - where there is unity, silence and delight. These are the dynamics as I see it that is working within the rāmāyaṇa.


    praṇām

    words
    It is worthy to note that 'ac' of acyuta means 'to go , move'. So in one word, we see Kṛṣṇa addressed as the movable and immovable.
    Last edited by yajvan; 05 November 2011 at 10:59 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  5. #5

    Re: rāmāyaṇa insights

    Namaste YajvanJi

    I haven't read AdhyAtma RAmAyaN and look forward to you posts. However, this is my understanding:

    Shri RAm of course, is Shriman Narayan, VishNu, so the all-pervading paramAtmA. The word rAm as in ramaN, AtmArAm is befitting.

    SitA : RAm's consort is of course Lakshmi who always supports Bhagvan VishNu in His earthly Lilas. On the adhyAtma level, She is His internal potency, HlAdini shakti, Shri Devi. However, Sita is also refered to as Bhudevi (Mother Earth Shakti).
    So She is Shri + Bhu combined. Since RAm had taken eka-patni vrat, He could not have been accompanied by Shri and Bhu seperately (unlike KRshNa who as accompanied by RukmiNi (shri) and SatyabhAmA (bhu). )

    These two Shaktis are the gateways for the tatastha (marginal) entities (the jivas) to the ParaBramha (Shri RAm)

    Sita' s going back to earth symbolizes that the body is the 5 elements (earth water fire air ether) and goes back to its source.

    Lakshman Bharat Shatrughna = the chaturvyuha expansions of Shriman Narayan
    (VAsudev SahkarshaN Pradyumna Aniruddha)

    Dasharath : the One who has yoked the 10 (dasha) indriya (senses) to the chariot (rath) - my interpretation alone.

    Kausalya - simply the exalted one whom Shriman Narayan honored by making her His mother in one incarnation.

    [ We know that Devaki :: KRshNa as PRshNi :: PrshNiGarbha as Aditi :: VishNu in form of Upendra/VAman (Upendra = younger brother of Indra) - Where the same entity took births as PRshni , Aditi and Devaki. So she must also be Kausalya then ?]

    SumitrA = Su + MitrA = personification of good auspicious friendship and loyalty, hence she gave Lakshman to RAm - a trustworthy loving dedicated follower brother friend.

    VibhishaN = the exemplary jiva who is righteous and recognizes his hitachintak (wellwisher) - RAm, Self, ParamAtmA, God. Dictionary says "VibhishaN" = terrifying intimidating, so he was a threat to Ravana and his clan from their POV. His weapon was Truth (Satyameva jayate)

    I shall skip Kaikeyi and MantharA for now. Also, JatAyu (who was RAm's actual father ??) , Jambhuvan and HanumAn (everyone knows he is Pavan-suta).
    -----------------------------

    This reminds me of Swami Chinmayananda's book : KRshNa = Self, Rukmini = jiva, RukmiNi's father Bheeshmaka (King of Vidarbha) = body , Rukmini's five brother (opposed to her marraige to KRshNa) = 5 senses.

    Only when jiva surrenders to Self (KRshNa), and only when He actually lifts her out of the material "prison" , can she have the salvation in proximity of paramAtmA. She cannot do it herself. Also, the body apparently was supportive but the senses were not.


    praNAm

    Jai Shri RAm
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: rāmāyaṇa insights

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~


    namasté smaranam


    SitA : RAm's consort is of course Lakshmi who always supports Bhagvan VishNu in His earthly Lilas. On the adhyAtma level, She is His internal potency, HlAdini shakti, Shri Devi. However, Sita is also refered to as Bhudevi (Mother Earth Shakti).
    What you offer about sītā (some spell sitā) is interesting and insightful. If I may let me extend the conversation a bit more.

    Sitā we know is the the wife of rāmacandra and daughter of king janaka - king of mithilā , capital of videha. Sitā was named as such because She is thought to have sprung from a furrow made by janaka while ploughing the ground to prepare it for a sacrifice instituted by him . She is also called ayoni-jā , meaning 'not womb born' since she came from the furrow or track or line of a ploughshare.

    Śrī siddharameśvara maharāj suggests to us that sitā is also the personification of peace. This is śrī rām's 'nature' and why both are a couple, yet more so , how they are considered one and the same.
    It is said hanumān-ji once looked at sitā. She was alone. He had doubts that whether it was rāmaḥ he was seeing. Looking at sitā he thought it was rāmaḥ Himself. Hence the perfection in match.

    So, it is rāvaṇa (daśagrīva) or the world of the senses that takes away peace (sitā). It is when the the world of diversity (rāvaṇa) is no more, then thee kingdom of rāmaḥ becomes one's daily experince (peace).

    Both sitā & rāmaḥ (peace and the Supreme Self) can be inferred in His name rā + ma. This 'rā' we know as splendor, light meaning the Sun and hence the symbol of the Supreme. And this 'ma' is measure, to measure out. It is sitā who is considered nature , that which is meaured out, ever changing or prakṛti.

    So within rāma's name we have the Supreme Self and the active creation... the unmoving and the moving just as we find in a + cyutá - 'a' = not + 'cyuta' = moved, shaken or fallen i.e. not fallen. It suggests not fallen from Divine status. He is the imperishable, the immovable, invincible and the movable, all of prakṛti.


    praṇām
    Last edited by yajvan; 14 December 2011 at 12:44 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: rāmāyaṇa insights

    hari o
    ~~~~~~


    namast

    Now who is this lakṣmaṇa लक्ष्मण ? We know he is a son of daśa-ratha and the younger brother of śrī rām, yet what is his symbol ?
    Lakṣmaṇa is defined as 'endowed with auspicious signs or marks' .
    What if we look at his name like this lakṣ + maṇa .
    • lakṣ = to aim , it (as to aim an arrow at any object) , direct towards , have in view
    • maṇa = mana = manas = mind in its broadest sense as applied to all the mental powers i.e. intellect , intelligence , understanding , perception , sense , conscience , will. . Yet too it is also it is to bear or ponder in the mind , meditate on , remember.
    So we can say lakṣmaṇa's auspicious markis his aim (lakṣ) via the mental faculties and meditation towards the Supreme Self, rāmaḥ. His duty and dedication to rāmaḥ was unwavering as he followed him into the forest.

    The forest as I see it is the forest of life, of multiplicity. Where all different animals present themselves to the native that is on the path of life.

    So, one must ask , why did rāmaḥ and others end up in the forest for 14 years ? I can see 12 years and have a line of sight to this time-frame, but why 14 years ? Any one care to suggest an answer ?


    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #8
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    Re: rāmāyaṇa insights

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~


    namasté

    So, one must ask , why did rāmaḥ and others end up in the forest for 14 years ? I can see 12 years and have a line of sight to this timeframe, but why 14 years ? Any one care to suggest an answer ?

    This is not an easy question... Many people say this 14 years corrresponds to the viṁśottarī daśā system and the period of śanaiscara (saturn, the slow moving one) daśā period. If this were true then rāmaḥ and others end up in daṇḍaka forest for a term of 19 years. So I have pondered this question for many years and finally got my answer offered some years back by sanjay rath, one of the jyotish luminaries of our present time. He shows that this 14 year period is in fact a period of śani (saturn) yet it is part of the mūla daśā system which happens to be a derivative of the viṁśottarī daśā system. To go into this daśā system is not the intent of this post, as it is quite in-depth. Yet I point this out to suggest no information given in the śāstra's is just a random number, but is given for meaning, learning or insight.

    Yet if there are those with a jyotish bent that wish to better understand this daśā system and has a good baseline in jyotish, sanjay was kind enough to write this down some years back - you can find it here : http://www.scribd.com/doc/58409021/Sanjay-Rath

    On closing let me ask is there any significance to the name of the forest , daṇḍaka forest ,that rāmaḥ and others resided in for the 14 years ?

    praṇām
    Last edited by yajvan; 07 November 2011 at 07:20 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  9. #9

    Re: rāmāyaṇa insights

    Namaste Yajvanji

    On closing let me ask is there any significance to the name of the forest , daṇḍaka forest ,that rāmaḥ and others resided in for the 14 years ?
    DanDaka refers to danDa = punishment or consequence ?
    (It is another story that KRshNa says "I am the 'danDa' of those who mete out disciplines (shAsan) ).

    14 years related to sADe-sAti (7 1/2 yrs roughly times two for some reason) makes sense.

    Also, sItA being the nature of rAma (as peace) is very beautiful. Yes, They are one.

    praNAm
    Last edited by smaranam; 07 November 2011 at 04:46 PM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: rāmāyaṇa insights

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté smaranam

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    Namaste Yajvanji
    DanDaka refers to danDa = punishment or consequence ?
    (It is another story that KRshNa says "I am the 'danDa' of those who mete out disciplines (shAsan) ).
    daṇḍaka is a wonderful word. We know it as a stick or a shaft. Who carries a stick or shaft in the forests ? Which muni's ? This is a hint of who you will find in the forest. Yet too a stick can also be the symbol of discipline/punishment as you suggest. Also when you say 'meter', daṇḍaka is a class of meters which may extend from 4 x 27 to 4 x 999 syllables.

    Yet this word in the masculine gender is defined as 'of an asura¹' ; We find in this daṇḍaka forest the asura-s and others ( even muni-s). One asura that is encoundered is virādha. His encounter is offered in the araṇya kāṇḍa of the rāmāyaṇa.

    Now it is my conjecture daṇḍaka has something to do with time span. That is, one definition of daṇḍa is a measure of time = to 60 vi-kalā-s¹. There are different definitions of the duration of 1 vi-kalā.

    Also daṇḍa is defined as 0º 1 ' 0" of a degree of a sign, or as we may say 1 minute of a degree. It is my assumption the word daṇḍaka when properly understood will help better understand the time spent in this forest... perhaps it gets us to the 14 years or subsets of that 14 years and when things occured. This again is my conjecture and I am still looking to see if this idea has any merit.

    praṇām

    words
    • we know asura-s to be rākṣasa-s.
    • daṇḍa = 60 vi-kalā-s; Now what is 1 vi-kalā ? Note the vi = 2, so we need to find 1 kalā. One kalā = 1÷900th of a day or 1.6 minutes; vi-kalā then = 1.6 minutes x 2 = 3.2 minutes. It just so happens that 3.2 min. can be viewed as 3º20' or 1 pada of a nakṣatra , an asterism or constellation through which the moon passes. Perhaps the math will work out for the number of pada-s saturn passes through in the 14 year period. Again, I have not worked this out as yet.
    Last edited by yajvan; 07 November 2011 at 07:36 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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