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Thread: Sikh and Hindu traditions.....

  1. #21

    Re: Sikh and Hindu traditions.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Harjas Kaur View Post

    Moreover it needs to be said that original Sikh tradition was sanatan, and origin of this term comes from the shared Hindu Dharma. In 1905 the British Raj had installed a caretaker of the central Harimandir Gurdwara after the reform Singh Sabha had usurped power from the original Sanatan Singh Sabha. This "jathedar" held a position given to him by the British. It did not ever before exist in Sikh history. Traditionally the pujaris and mahants of the Udasi and Nirmalay sects were the caretakers of the Sikh Gurdwaras. This British appointed "jathedar" not only did he place a siropa of honor around the neck of General Dyer following the Jallianwalla bagh massacre committed by the British against own Punjabis,
    but in 1905 he REMOVED the murthis from the Harimandir Sahib (Golden Temple). It is known that removed included a lifesized murthi of Vishnu, a murthi of Chandi-Durga, a murthi of Bhagavan Krishna and a murthi of Guru Ram Das Sodhi.
    Harjas Kaurji,
    The above paragraph say jathedar honored dyer after jallianwala and removed murtis in 1905. You know there is 14 years difference between the two events. So making the link in two events 14 years apart doesn't make sense.

    This "jathedar" held a position given to him by the British. It did not ever before exist in Sikh history
    Incorrect. Baba Budda was first jathedar of Harmander Sahib.

    thirdly,
    I can't understand that what you say about "removing the statues". was it right or wrong?

    Sikh Sabha movement was not just given away by british. There were enough struggles, protests and loss of life for that.

    This paragraph creates wedge between sikhs and hindus; sikhs and sikhs more than britishers. Where did you get this paragraph from? Who wrote this ? what references ?

    Sikhs who worked on this reform movement were not politicians; they were very learned sikhs - who have written treatises on guru granth sahib. Kahan Singh Nabha and Prof Sahib Singh (born a hindu - Nathu Ram) are the authorities on guru granth sahib even after 100 years.

    Fourly - pardon me - I don't understand the meaning of Sanatan Dharma. And why go in terminology. Sikhism is a faith which worships one formless god. ( From first lines of guru granth sahib). So there is no place for any images or statues in sikh gurudwara. And those statues were respectfully removed; I believe durgiana temple in amristsar holds those statues now.
    There is no images of sikh gurus also in a sikh gurudwara. The images are only kept in the museums. Nobody bows before images.

  2. #22

    Re: Sikh and Hindu traditions.....

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    namaste,
    Saying that sikhs were in as much danger as hindus doesn't absolve the terrorists from the dispecable acts of murdering innocent men, women and children in punjab.
    It is pathetic that people are hung up on an empty dream of khali stan because that's what it would've been if terrorists had their way. Last year I was in punjab, no sikh that I met talked about separating from India.
    In none of my posts, I ever said terrorists were right.
    In none of my posts, I demanded a Khalistan.
    I am not sure where you interpreted that from.

    My discussion with you is over.

  3. #23
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    Re: Sikh and Hindu traditions.....

    namaskar,

    Quote Originally Posted by darshansingh View Post
    In none of my posts, I ever said terrorists were right.
    In none of my posts, I demanded a Khalistan.
    I am not sure where you interpreted that from.

    My discussion with you is over.
    Good.
    satay

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    Re: Sikh and Hindu traditions.....

    namaskar,

    Quote Originally Posted by darshansingh View Post
    So there is no place for any images or statues in sikh gurudwara. And those statues were respectfully removed; I believe durgiana temple in amristsar holds those statues now.
    There is no images of sikh gurus also in a sikh gurudwara. The images are only kept in the museums. Nobody bows before images.
    Hmm...when was the last time you went to a sikh gurudwara sahib? I ask because the last time I was there I saw there pictures of Guru Nanak, Guru Gobind and people bowing to those 'images'. Also, I saw sangat bowing down to the Guru Granth Sahib. Nobody bows before images? Which Gurudwara are you talking about? Because the gurudwaras I go to everyone bows to images there!
    satay

  5. #25

    Re: Sikh and Hindu traditions.....

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    namaskar,
    Hmm...when was the last time you went to a sikh gurudwara sahib? I ask because the last time I was there I saw there pictures of Guru Nanak, Guru Gobind and people bowing to those 'images'. Also, I saw sangat bowing down to the Guru Granth Sahib. Nobody bows before images? Which Gurudwara are you talking about? Because the gurudwaras I go to everyone bows to images there!
    Images of gurus have no place in Gurudwara. If some gurudwara has that, its incorrect. The first lines of Guru Granth says that "God is done,Formless...". So anybody who is doing such is not following the sikhism.

    You need to read stuff, before we can make fruitful discussion. You are not here to learn, and I don't have much time to argue.

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    Re: Sikh and Hindu traditions.....

    Pardon my ignorance, but did people bow before the images of the gurus before Guru Granth Sahib was installed as the eternal guru and the practice of bowing only before it was established?

  7. #27

    Re: Sikh and Hindu traditions.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Pardon my ignorance, but did people bow before the images of the gurus before Guru Granth Sahib was installed as the eternal guru and the practice of bowing only before it was established?
    Guru Gobind Singh established Guru Granth Sahib as the eternal guru during his lifetime. There was no gap.

    In fact Guru Arjan Dev - 5th guru - compiled most of the Guru Granth Sahib and established it in Harmander Sahib (Golden Temple); and people bowed before the granth since then.

  8. #28
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    Re: Sikh and Hindu traditions.....

    Quote Originally Posted by darshansingh View Post
    Guru Gobind Singh established Guru Granth Sahib as the eternal guru during his lifetime. There was no gap.

    In fact Guru Arjan Dev - 5th guru - compiled most of the Guru Granth Sahib and established it in Harmander Sahib (Golden Temple); and people bowed before the granth since then.
    I am sorry, I probably did not phrase my question right.

    1. Who/What did people bow to before Guru Arjan Dev compiled the Guru Granth Sahib?
    2. Did people bow to Guru Nanak during his lifetime or the other three Gurus who followed him, since the Guru Granth Sahib did not exist then?
    3. What is so evil about bowing before a Guru - who teaches you about God and God's word - or before a deity representing God?
    4. What is the point of splitting hair? Out of the two groups, one who sees God as nirakaar and the other who sees God as akaar, is one essentially better/more enlightened than the other? Can we just let them both worship according to their understanding/religious affiliation/intellect/personal preference/ego fueled 'better than thou' attitude, and not argue about it? Even if some members of the nirakaar group bow before a picture, are they going to be denied entry into heaven? Have they committed an unpardonable sin against God and humanity? If one sees God in a murti/picture, let him. If another sees God in thin air, let him. Microscopes can be useful in a lot of scientific research, but NOT in studying these two species to determine who is better of the two. Splitting hair is injurious to your health and it annoys your friends/well-wishers/neighbors too.

  9. #29
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    Re: Sikh and Hindu traditions.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    What is the point of splitting hair? Out of the two groups, one who sees God as nirakaar and the other who sees God as akaar, is one essentially better/more enlightened than the other? Can we just let them both worship according to their understanding/religious affiliation/intellect/personal preference/ego fueled 'better than thou' attitude, and not argue about it? Even if some members of the nirakaar group bow before a picture, are they going to be denied entry into heaven? Have they committed an unpardonable sin against God and humanity? If one sees God in a murti/picture, let him. If another sees God in thin air, let him. Microscopes can be useful in a lot of scientific research, but NOT in studying these two species to determine who is better of the two. Splitting hair is injurious to your health and it annoys your friends/well-wishers/neighbors too.

    Quoted for truth. If I wanted to argue about "true" and "false" religions, then I'd be a Christian or a Muslim.

  10. #30

    Re: Sikh and Hindu traditions.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    I am sorry, I probably did not phrase my question right.

    1. Who/What did people bow to before Guru Arjan Dev compiled the Guru Granth Sahib?
    2. Did people bow to Guru Nanak during his lifetime or the other three Gurus who followed him, since the Guru Granth Sahib did not exist then?
    3. What is so evil about bowing before a Guru - who teaches you about God and God's word - or before a deity representing God?
    4. What is the point of splitting hair? Out of the two groups, one who sees God as nirakaar and the other who sees God as akaar, is one essentially better/more enlightened than the other? Can we just let them both worship according to their understanding/religious affiliation/intellect/personal preference/ego fueled 'better than thou' attitude, and not argue about it? Even if some members of the nirakaar group bow before a picture, are they going to be denied entry into heaven? Have they committed an unpardonable sin against God and humanity? If one sees God in a murti/picture, let him. If another sees God in thin air, let him. Microscopes can be useful in a lot of scientific research, but NOT in studying these two species to determine who is better of the two. Splitting hair is injurious to your health and it annoys your friends/well-wishers/neighbors too.
    1-2. Sikhs bowed before the living Guru. They not just bowed, but everything the Guru said - even gave their head ( Baishakhi 1699)

    3. If I answer this is detail, it may appear as criticism of idol-worship. So, I have to walk on very thin line. The idol is not God. So, there is no point in worshipping it. An idol cannot represent the nirgun God. And I, as a sikh, would respect a hindu doing his worship the way he wants. And a sikh would even defend a hindu's right to worship the way he wants. (Guru Teg Bahadur did it)

    4. I have no-better-than-thou attitude. A sikh, who follows sikhism, cannot have that attitude. Please point any of my posts where I have stated sikh is better than hindu or such.

    I am just here to clarify some misinformation. The first lines for Guru Granth ( I am saying it for nth time) are One God, Truth, ..Timeless, Birth-less..
    So, why some people can't understand that Idol-worship is not part of sikhism. Hey, we don't even worship idols of Gurus. Even Guru Ramdas's statue was removed from Golden Temple, when singh sabha reform movement happened. We have no disrespect for anybody and any method of worship.

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