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Thread: Sikhism- a seperate religion?

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    Sikhism- a seperate religion?

    Vaheguroo Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguroo Ji Ki Fateh

    Bhai Gurdas Vara is a scripture of the Sikhs given authority by the 5th Guru, Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj himself. It is known as the "key to Guru Granth Sahib Ji", as it helps us to understand the philosophy of Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

    Many people believe that Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not start a new religion, this is incorrect, Bhai Gurdas Vara confirm this:

    ਮਾਰਿਆ ਸਿਕਾ ਜਗਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਪੰਥੁ ਚਲਾਇਆ ।
    maariaa sikaa jagati vichi naanak niramal pandu chalaaiaa|
    In the world, he (Guru Nanak Dev Ji) established the authority (of his doctrines) and started a religion, devoid of any impurity.

    Similarly, Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj was also asked about his path:

    First there were Hindus and Muslims, take note, there are three now. (GurPartapSurya)


    On his way towards Deccan, Guru Gobind Singh reached Pushkar .The discussion that took place there is recorded this way in Surya Prakash.

    Brahmins, Merchants and others came with Pandit Chaitin. Having made salutation they sat down in the assembly and asked, “What is their Caste? How we recognize them. Your companions wear unshorn hair, what we can say is their Caste? There are many new garbs, but none of them is Hindu or Moslem.” Having heard that Guru replied, “Khalsa is the third Panth in the world. It is distinct from Hindus and Moslems. They are servants of the Eternal, Immortal.” When Guru Gobind Singh met the Emperor Bahadur Shah, this discussion transpired.
    Bahadur Shah said, “There are two religions, Hindus and Moslems, What appeals to you? On what you have faith, Hinduism or Islam?” To that Guru Gobind Singh replied, "Hindu, Moslems whatever way they follow we wish them both well. The Moslems preach fasting; prayer call and five prayers are supreme for them. Hindus perform Sandhya, adoration and rites of stone Gods, and such others are acceptable to Hindus. We consider both the same way abandoning all others; we have established the Khalsa as the third (religion). Without distinction we abandon all else and seek the shelter of the Eternal, the Purusha." (Gur Pratap Surya)
    Gur Bilas and Panth Parkash:
    To the two religions was added the Third. Taking the support of Almighty, Guru Gobind Singh created the Khalsa Panth, above the Hindus and Moslems. "Forgetting all ways adopt the Khalsa Panth,” said the Tenth Guru, the Light Incarnate. (Gur Bilas) Again distinct from the Hindus and Moslems, He said, "Establish I this Panth, powerful indeed." (Panth Parkash)

    I hope that this post has removed any illusion

    Vaheguroo Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguroo Ji Ki Fateh

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    Re: Sikhism- a seperate religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Singh Khalsa View Post
    Hindus perform Sandhya, adoration and rites of stone Gods, and such others are acceptable to Hindus. We consider both the same way abandoning all others; we have established the Khalsa as the third (religion). Without distinction we abandon all else and seek the shelter of the Eternal, the Purusha." (Gur Pratap Surya)
    Gur Bilas and Panth Parkash: To the two religions was added the Third. Taking the support of Almighty, Guru Gobind Singh created the Khalsa Panth, above the Hindus and Moslems. "Forgetting all ways adopt the Khalsa Panth,” said the Tenth Guru, the Light Incarnate. (Gur Bilas) Again distinct from the Hindus and Moslems, He said, "Establish I this Panth, powerful indeed." (Panth Parkash)


    Anyone who says that Hindus 'worship stone gods' is not a learned person, let alone a 'guru'. Secondly, where is the "above Hindus and muslims..." when the immortal is the only one? There is no above, below, left, or right. If the Sikh gurus recognized that, then they were following Hinduism. If they didn't and became exclusivist, as you point out, they became muslims. It is quite sad that you and sikhs in general are struggling to establish your identity; everyone thinks either you're a Hindu or a muslim. This is why you and other sikhs incessantly harp about distancing yourselves from Hinduism. Fact is, too bad! Your religion has simply adopted bits and pieces of Hindu philosophy along with some muslim tradition prevalent in India at that time.

    The Sankhya philosophy (darshana), is obviously accepted by the sikhs as you mentioned in your quote above: the Purusha. That is inextricably linked to Hindu thought. There is no running from it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Singh Khalsa View Post
    I hope that this post has removed any illusion
    I sure hope it removes the illusion it has for you!

    JAI HIND!

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    Re: Sikhism- a seperate religion?

    Forgive me, but I'm totally ignorant on Sikhism eschatology.

    Would it be possible to succinctly compare/contrast with other doctrines for those as uninformed as myself?


    Namaste,
    ZN
    yaireva patanaM dravyaiH siddhistaireva choditA .
    shrI kauladarshane chApi bhairaveNa mahAtmanA .

    It is revealed in the sacred doctrine of Kula and by the great Bhairava, that the perfection is achieved by that very means by which fall occurs.

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    Re: Sikhism- a seperate religion?

    I think the periodic reference to Hindus worshipping 'stone gods' is made deliberately by those preaching against it.

    Most religions lack the subtle symbolism that vedic seers have used throughout their revelations. People denigrate the vedic religion inspite of our rich sublime philosophy in the upanishads and the Gita. Some people think samhita and brAhmaNas are promarily ritualistic, but they are also high philosophical ideas expressed in a symbolic notation. purANAs and itihAsas often appear to contain numerous fancy tales but even these are quite mystical in content. We have perhaps the most sublime of all the philsophy in the world..and whatever else in any other religion is contained within the broad scope of sanAtana dharma.

    The vedic religion is not a one shoe fits all religion. It is meant for many different people of different levels and temperaments. There are outward rituals that are meant for external purification and inward comtemplation for inner purification. Most religions have a bunch of cock and bull stories yet they spare no thought when associating us with idolatory.

    Even the village peasant untrained in Hindu religion who cleans the cowdung everyday knows much more philosophy than the so called scholars of some of these aristocratic religions. No wonder they dont have a clue as to the purpose of worshipping God through these symbolic means, The so called bishops or mullahs or sikh leaders cant understand what the most illiterate Hindu understands by idol worship. What a pity.

    Even some of the famous saints in our country have been ignorant on this issue. They simply failed to understand that the idol is never treated as God but only as a symbolic reference to an entity that has no representation in nature.
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

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    Re: Sikhism- a seperate religion?

    Was Guru Nanak a Hindu?

    A Hindu is any person who practices good Karma, Bhakti, or Jnana for achieving Moksha. Nanakdasa's goal was Moksha (Morgan, P. 41 Religion of the Hindus). Many Sikh texts mention Moksha.


    What did Nanakdas say?:
    Once when a Muslim had asked Guru Nanak his religion, Nanak replied that he worships only One God. The Muslim then said that Nanak must be a Muslim because Nanak worships one God. Nanak then replied, "Veda's also talk of one Ishvar. Why should I then not call myself a Hindu?"

    "I am sent to the Mohammedians to reconcile your jarring faiths ; and I implore you to read the Hindu scriptures, as well as your own ;..." (Malcolm, P. 161 Sketch of the Sikhs).

    "Some sing the praise of His power -- He is all powerful, omnipotent. Some sing of His benefaction and munificence -- He is the supreme giver. Some sing of the glory of His attributes, His beauty -- He is the most beautiful. Some call Him truth, some call Him Shiva, some call Him the beautiful."

    Lets see what some Sikh scholars say:
    Sikh scholar Sardar Gulab Singh in lecture at the Guru Ka Bagh in Amritsar declares that, "Sikh faith is the true Sanatan Dharma. The four Vedas are also the four religious books of the Sikhs (Oberoi, P. 102 The Construction of Religious Boundaries).

    Hardyal Singh M.A., a famous Punjabi revolutionary during the time of the British Raj, said that "If you were to remove every page that contained the name of Bithal or Ram from the Granth, you will be left with nothing more than a few pages and the book case." The Guru Granth Sahib clearly states that Bithal is the Lord.

    As Gurbachan Singh, an important Sikh spiritual figure once proclaimed: "The responsibilities assigned from time to time to prophets like Noah, Rama, Krishna, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, Kabir, Nanak, and Dayal have now been put on shoulders by my predecessor Baba Avtar Singh." Lets see what some Sikh scriptures read:
    As the Sri Guru Granth Sahib reads, "Dharma, Artha, Kaam and Moksha follow God's devotee like shadow" (SGGS 1320).

    The Gurbilas Patsahi written in the nineteenth century by Sikh Koer Singh recommends that his readers pay the same attention to the Puranic scriptures as they would the Adi Granth, and that Guru Gobind Singh is the 24th Avatar of Vishnu (Oberoi, P. 99-103 The Construction of Religious Boundaries).


    What do Sikhs themselves say?:
    Many Sikhs identify themselves with Hinduism. They are the Sanatan Sikhs.

    Sanatan Sikh sects are 1) Ravidasi 2) Kabirpanthi 3) Nihang 4) Udasi 5) Ramanandi

    Further the Sanatan Singh Sabha was a very important organization during the British Imperialist era.

    Most Sikhs carry Hindu names - names invented by Hindus (e.g., Jaspreet, Harbhajan). The name of 'Singh' is adopted from the Rajputs.

    The royal families of Faridkot, Nabha, and Patiala are all of Sikh nobility. They all engaged Brahmin priests and Hindu temples were built for family use. Maharajah Pupinder Singh offered bali (sacrifice) of a waterbuffalo to the temple of Kali in Patiala which he built. Every year the Maharajah of Patiala donates a nose ring and gold bracelet to the River Sarsa which is directed by the Brahmin priests and in accordance to Hindu traditions.


    For a lot more information go here:
    http://hinduwiki.com/index.php?title...ndu_traditions
    http://hinduwiki.com/index.php?title=Sanatan_Sikhs
    Last edited by PrimeDirectives; 20 February 2009 at 03:34 PM. Reason: duplication problem

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    Re: Sikhism- a seperate religion?

    Probably about 35% at least are Sanatan Sikhs.
    Last edited by PrimeDirectives; 20 February 2009 at 03:13 PM. Reason: duplicate

  7. Re: Sikhism- a seperate religion?

    My first post. I thank and congratulate the forum creators, who obviously are hindus, but are willing learners of sikhism.

    My points on the question.
    There are two kinds of hindus on the basis of their attitude towards sikhs.
    1. The loving ones - Who say that sikhism is so similar to their hindu belief system that to call it different won't make sense. Hence, they even allow sikhs to enter sanctum sanctorum of temples where only hindus are allowed. (I was allowed in meenakshi temple, madurai)
    ( Note: there is no ONE hindu belief system, and sikh belief system is similar to belief system of many hindus - who believe in monotheistic nirgun god and so on)

    2. There's another category - who say why do sikhs say its new religion (hence philosophy) when most of the philosophy was already there. And they give example of advaita philosophy, guru parampara and so on. They take it as an ego issue - Hindu already knew all that is in Guru Granth Sahib. Sure. But sikhs are not making the claim of novelty.

    Some in category 2 have sinister motive, to assimilate the sikhs ( i.e. cut hair, worship idols and so on).

    I really have hard time understanding why would any hindu ( of category 2b) want that. Sikhs were never threat to hindus. In fact, over their brief history have always defended hindus ( and themselves) and Islamic threat. And sikhs are always indebted to many hindu families who brought up their eldest son as sikh. And there are tens of hindu saints who are very respectful for sikhs - raidas, namdev, ramanand.

    Yes, sikh philosophy has a lot in common with some hindu philosophies.

    I could say this as an example -
    If Hindus = Set of integers and Sikhs = Prime numbers
    Hindus would you are just an integer so you are one of us. Sikhs say but we have some other properties also which not all other integers have. We rather be called prime numbers than integers. (case in point being: Hinduism is large collection of philosophical systems; and sikhism is a specific refined system)

    I hope I made sense. I have vast respect for hinduism - I will write that in some other post.

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    Re: Sikhism- a seperate religion?

    darshansinghji,

    Welcome to this forum and we are all honored and enriched by your presence among us and by your very first post.

    You have made some very valid points in your post. However a religion does not thrive or disappear because of the wishful thinking of the fringe element of another group of people. May Sikhism live for ever!

    As you pointed out, most of the contents of Guru Granthsahib are contained in the pre-existing vast array of hindu literature. But that by no means, makes the existence/need of Sikhism irrelevant. It is tradition started to meet the spiritual needs/identity of a segment of the society and it will thrive based on their need/adherence to it. I am not being disrespectful by mentioning that Prof. Kushwant Singh once remarked that Sikhism is an aapat-kaleen religion, which sprouted, because at the time the country itself was in peril and the existing religious practices were corrupt, and that it will ultimately merge into Hinduism. It does not benefit anyone if it ultimately merges into Hinduism or maintains its separate identity. That depends entirely on its adherents. In the mean time, we two have one heart even though our spiritual journeys may diverge a little. You are always welcome into our temples, as am I always welcomed into the Gurudwaras. And, please do come back to enlighten us some more.

    Regards.
    Last edited by Believer; 19 July 2010 at 02:14 PM.

  9. #9

    Re: Sikhism- a seperate religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by darshansingh View Post
    My first post. I thank and congratulate the forum creators, who obviously are hindus, but are willing learners of sikhism.

    My points on the question.
    There are two kinds of hindus on the basis of their attitude towards sikhs.
    1. The loving ones - Who say that sikhism is so similar to their hindu belief system that to call it different won't make sense. Hence, they even allow sikhs to enter sanctum sanctorum of temples where only hindus are allowed. (I was allowed in meenakshi temple, madurai)
    ( Note: there is no ONE hindu belief system, and sikh belief system is similar to belief system of many hindus - who believe in monotheistic nirgun god and so on)

    2. There's another category - who say why do sikhs say its new religion (hence philosophy) when most of the philosophy was already there. And they give example of advaita philosophy, guru parampara and so on. They take it as an ego issue - Hindu already knew all that is in Guru Granth Sahib. Sure. But sikhs are not making the claim of novelty.

    Some in category 2 have sinister motive, to assimilate the sikhs ( i.e. cut hair, worship idols and so on).

    I really have hard time understanding why would any hindu ( of category 2b) want that. Sikhs were never threat to hindus. In fact, over their brief history have always defended hindus ( and themselves) and Islamic threat. And sikhs are always indebted to many hindu families who brought up their eldest son as sikh. And there are tens of hindu saints who are very respectful for sikhs - raidas, namdev, ramanand.

    Yes, sikh philosophy has a lot in common with some hindu philosophies.

    I could say this as an example -
    If Hindus = Set of integers and Sikhs = Prime numbers
    Hindus would you are just an integer so you are one of us. Sikhs say but we have some other properties also which not all other integers have. We rather be called prime numbers than integers. (case in point being: Hinduism is large collection of philosophical systems; and sikhism is a specific refined system)

    I hope I made sense. I have vast respect for hinduism - I will write that in some other post.
    Well of course there are three main things that makes Sikhs and Hindus essentially "siblings in faith"

    1) where there is no mandir for a Hindu to worship, he can go to a gurdwara / where there is no gurdwara for a Sikh to worship, he can go to mandir. So much so that in a Hindu temple that wont admit non-Hindus, the only non-Hindus allowed are Sikhs - like you said.

    Infact both do visit each others places of worship deliberately even when they have options otherwise to celebrate each other's festivities. Both do engage in each other's kirtan even. And both share the same method of preparation of temple food offerings / prashad, so both can only recieve prashad that are made by each other.

    So this itself is a huge factor.

    2) Indian Hindus/Sikhs share the same historical, cultural, national and racial heritage. And like you said Hindu families sent their eldest sons to the Khalsa - which to me most importantly binds the bond. Two groups, very similar who suffered together and fought against a common oppressor together.

    3) the religions themselves are very closely related i.e the scriptures. Sure some Sikhs today would be adamant about denying this irrefutable/undeniable fact. But the Granth Sahib draws heavily from both Sufism(which in the Indian subcontinent and elsewhere itself claims to be inspired by Hinduism) and Hinduism mainly the North Indian Vaishnavism.

    However there are several points here to considers as well;

    ~ In the past in Punjab, there were Sikhs who called themselves "Hindu Sikhs" and Hindus who called themselves as "Sikh Hindus". The British, with their "divide-and-conquer" agenda sought to divide Sikhs into an entirely distinct group. Also because Sikhs (I'm not being condescending but merely stating the facts here) provided better military labour.

    To the contrast however, the upper caste Hindus i.e Brahmins and Rajputs were much more rebellious. So the Sikhs, mainly the Jatts (Jat Regiment) were their favourite. That is not to say that Jatt Sikhs were not at all patriotic because there were some Jatt freedom fighters like Bhagat Singh.(Bhagat Singh was a Hindu Jatt some say otherwise - whatever)

    Although initially the Sikhs having provided a stiff resistance against the British, eventually seemed to have been brainwashed by them into having animosity towards us Hindus that Sikhs are being taken advantage of by us i.e told by the British they are not recognized for what they are due, their contributions for us.

    They(Sikhs) were bribed by the British special treatment over us Hindus, if they were to be more loyal to them.

    And there you have Sikhs starting to distance themselves. The older generations influenced by the Brits insisting that Sikhs kept a seperate identity and prevent from being amalgamated into Hindu fold.

    With the independence of India drawing in, the rise of Khalistan/aka muhammadan Sikhsm suddenly being against idolatry even though it was a common practice to worship Hindu devatas in image form in some gurdwaras.

    Nihangs worship Shakti Devi before using weapons just like Rajputs. Khalsa draws heavily from Hindu Shastar Vidya of Rajputs.

    Sikh - 1:38 "that means the Goddess is happy"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wPQKmhlFUA

    Another important Sikhism isnt really "monotheism". Monotheism isnt just the belief in "One God". But who this "One God" is.

    Sikhs state that "Waheguru" is Nirankar. But goes into pantheism.

    And calls "Waheguru" as "seated upon a throne" and a parent "father/mother" and "Guru" how can that be?

    And how can Waheguru be "karta purakh"? How can formless God be "personified"/purakh? and that too "creatively"/karta?

    This is heresy to muslims and also not acceptable to Hindu Monotheism. Because "creativity" would simply be an expression of God's potency not God Himself.

    In Vaishnava Monotheism, all this creativity is Vishnu's sport/lila. God neither "needs" to do all this, nor "wants" to do all this. He simply does it.

    It does not effect His own nature but merely is His own expression - it is not a reflection of Him nor can we conceive any actual "reason" because it is all beyond our comprehension.

    This is signified by Shri Krishna playing the flute.



    And we have no choice but to engage in this, whether we admit He is the One or not.

    Signified by everyone being enchanted and mesmerized



    Sikh idea of God goes against both Vedanta Brahman and quranic allah.

    But is Sufi definition of allah, which is not really monotheism but "feeling" God in an esoteric way.

    Nevertheless I shall still treat Sikhs with indifference as though they are akin to me like fellow Hindus.
    Last edited by Kumar_Das; 20 July 2010 at 02:52 AM.

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    Re: Sikhism- a seperate religion?

    The Indian analytical mind is one of our great blessings and a curse too. With our scientific background, we tend to pick apart everything into little pieces, sometimes without any substantiation to back up the claims, and create a disharmonious atmosphere.

    Is it really necessary?
    Can we control our urge to go for an intellectual vomit?
    I sure hope so!

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