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Thread: A distant dream???

  1. #1
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    A distant dream???

    Namaste,

    Its becoming increasingly hard to even read the newspapers these days.
    The escalation of violence by militants in the form of beheading the innocents and also children is just much to bear.

    At this time one starts to question..where are we heading?

    How can a person think of prayer and self salvation when the rest of the world is suffering beyond imagination?

    Its totally not fair to think of one own salvation when one is totally helpless watching others die.

    Peace is for all..not just for a few.

    Words of the Geeta ring the mind..."to uplift dharma..I will incarnate from age to age"

    My question is ..really??

    Does this actually happen?

    Its hard for one to digest that one religion can terrorize the entire world and no one can really stop the epidemic.

    So where are the Avatars?

    Why no action?

    Its hard to digest the Karma theory of any kind when we see the innocent dying.

    Going by Karma theory some might say that we do not know who is technically innocent but even then..should human lives be lost for nothing at all?

    May be Parithranaya Sadhunam Vinashaya Dushkrtam remains a distant dream.

  2. #2
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    Re: A distant dream???

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by renuka View Post
    Namaste,
    Its totally not fair to think of one own salvation when one is totally helpless watching others die.

    Peace is for all..not just for a few.

    Words of the Geeta ring the mind..."to uplift dharma..I will incarnate from age to age"

    ...should human lives be lost for nothing at all?
    I can empathize with your point of view. It surely looks curious on how all this can occur. Yet consider the following.
    Pursuing one's salvation is in fact beneficial for the whole world. We share a collective consciousness ( so says the veda-s); by uplifting one's own self with his Self we contribute to the overall sattva of the world's collective consciousness. What is missing in the world ? More sattva. What is there plenty of ? Tamas. It is sattva that brings balance.

    Peace is not just the absence of fighting ; it is a level of harmony that is non-verbal ( beyond lip service). We do this with our contribution to peace and dharma within ourselves, family and community and this is done with the infusion of sattva.

    You have mentioned the bhāgavad gītā .... please do not forget the most profound words kṛṣṇa-jī offers in chapter 2, 12th śloka: there never was a time when I was not, nor you, nor these rulers of men. Nor will there ever be a time when all of us shall cease to be.

    One sees ( as most of us do) people coming and going i.e. birth, death, and the like. Yet the ultimate truth kṛṣṇa-jī offers is that really we will all never cease to be - the loss you mention is not final. Yet it is painful for us to see this destruction and cruelty on this good earth.

    What is one to do ? There is no doubt we must act, but it must be meaningful change; change that is uplifting and within the field of dharma. This is clearly pointed out within the mahābhārata, but I will leave it there for now without standing too high on my soap box.


    Remember, the bhāgavad gītā is 700 verses out of 100,000 offered in the mahābhārata by by vyāsa-ji. There we can find our guidance.

    "Whatever is here ( in the mahābhārata) is found elsewhere. But whatever is not here (in the mahābhārata) is nowhere else."

    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: A distant dream???

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    I can empathize with your point of view. It surely looks curious on how all this can occur. Yet consider the following.
    Pursuing one's salvation is in fact beneficial for the whole world. We share a collective consciousness ( so says the veda-s); by uplifting one's own self with his Self we contribute to the overall sattva of the world's collective consciousness. What is missing in the world ? More sattva. What is there plenty of ? Tamas. It is sattva that brings balance.

    Peace is not just the absence of fighting ; it is a level of harmony that is non-verbal ( beyond lip service). We do this with our contribution to peace and dharma within ourselves, family and community and this is done with the infusion of sattva.

    You have mentioned the bhāgavad gītā .... please do not forget the most profound words kṛṣṇa-jī offers in chapter 2, 12th śloka: there never was a time when I was not, nor you, nor these rulers of men. Nor will there ever be a time when all of us shall cease to be.

    One sees ( as most of us do) people coming and going i.e. birth, death, and the like. Yet the ultimate truth kṛṣṇa-jī offers is that really we will all never cease to be - the loss you mention is not final. Yet it is painful for us to see this destruction and cruelty on this good earth.

    What is one to do ? There is no doubt we must act, but it must be meaningful change; change that is uplifting and within the field of dharma. This is clearly pointed out within the mahābhārata, but I will leave it there for now without standing too high on my soap box.


    Remember, the bhāgavad gītā is 700 verses out of 100,000 offered in the mahābhārata by by vyāsa-ji. There we can find our guidance.

    "Whatever is here ( in the mahābhārata) is found elsewhere. But whatever is not here (in the mahābhārata) is nowhere else."

    iti śivaṁ


    Namaste,

    How can collective Sattva change the world?
    When a personal desire is called a prayer.
    How many is a man who prays for others?
    In the sea of existence no one is your brother.


    Yes..its said..once having existed..never ceases to be,
    nor having a beginning at all..nor having an end,
    It's easy to say this when the knife isn't at our neck,
    When it is.. God knows what will be in our head.

    The wise are said to not lament the dead...
    For life and death is the name of the game,
    Death could be a transition but dying isnt,
    Death could be painless..but dying.. my friend..isnt!

    Is it really wise not to lament the dead?
    Or is it only the heartless who feel this way?
    Is it may be because the victim was not mine?
    Didn't Arjun the hero feel only for his kind?

    The question remains.. what do prayers actually do..
    Watching helplessly I wonder if God is helpless too..
    Is there really Action or there is only Inaction?
    I would never know..for I could be inaction too.

    If God is a Director..His movie is not a hit,
    For Box office.. He would need another script,
    When is the time He would re write?
    Is it a distant time? Or never ever in any time!

  4. #4
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    Re: A distant dream???

    Namaste Renuka,

    I have often felt the way you feel now. Heck, I've made entire threads on my inability to deal with the emotions you're currently expressing. So you're not alone.

    That being said, the advice of Yajvan is advice I have taken to heart, because from my personal experience I have found it to be true. You can only help others once you learn how to help yourself.

    To address your concern about why no Avatars have shown up or why there is evil - just remember there is still good in this world, and while it is true that evil wins when good people do nothing, a good person is most effective when one has vanquished the evil tendencies within oneself. Would you rather curse the darkness, like you are now, or light your own candle? You can then use that candle to light others, just like the old Buddhist proverb.

    Speaking of which, I think this satirical piece by the website known as The Onion is appropriate for this thread:

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/bud...nquilit,34623/

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    Re: A distant dream???

    Dear friends,
    Drops of water make an ocean.Even a minute effort on one's part does not go waste . If we sincerely believe and practice love , compassion , tolerance , honesty , definitely it gets answered.
    Along with so much of anarchy and injustice we still find many many good souls trying to reach out to all those oppressed and make an effort to correct the system. I do believe that is the collective
    form of avathara which was promised in Geetha . ' Sambhavami yuge yuge ''.

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    Re: A distant dream???

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by renuka View Post
    Namaste,

    How can collective Sattva change the world?
    The question remains.. what do prayers actually do..

    If God is a Director..His movie is not a hit,
    For Box office.. He would need another script,
    When is the time He would re write?
    Is it a distant time? Or never ever in any time!
    First, I wish to share the knowledge that has been given to me ... that is I have no compunction to try and ~convert~ your point of view as this will remain fruitless.
    That said, collective sattva changes the world because collective tamas has gotten us to the present condition. Individual tamas' of the masses done one at time, collectively gives us the present conditions. Hence collective sattva brings balance.

    Now to suggest that prayer will do this , I am not bought in on this view. What will ? Something much more powerful - that of pure awareness that is without boundaries - it is the purifying force. Now if you wish to think in ~prayer~ terms , it would be the prayer of perfect silence. This is far beyond the notion of keeping one's lips from moving. Do not take my word for it. Find out for yourself and then let us know.


    Regarding God... I will not mettle in his business. He has given us this freedom of action; we get what we collectively deserve.


    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: A distant dream???

    Quote Originally Posted by renuka View Post
    Its totally not fair to think of one own salvation when one is totally helpless watching others die.
    Dear Renuka ji,

    There is no mutual contradiction between the noble ideal of 'striving for one's salvation' vs. 'working for the welfare of the needy'. Infact, they go hand-in-hand. If you take the overall population, those do-gooders will most likely have faith in some religion, even if not Sanathana Dharma. This is because religion, especially Sanathana Dharma, teaches the highest ideals for human conduct, not just means for a prosperous living. A good Acharya comes by every now and then and teaches men just that - how to be noble citizens. In olden days, we have seen men of great conduct and character, who were also very devout - such as Shri Chatrapathi Shivaji maharaj, who exemplified bravery and patriotism while they were being role-model devotees. Even if the devotees aren't much prepared, many of them still do as much good as they can, allured by the promise of 'merits'. So all religion and religiosity has to offer to us, is nothing but pure goodness.

    To be the most effective contributor for the society, one should be both religious/striving for salvation and do good to other people. This avoids the pitfalls of bringing glory onto oneself when it is the almighty that grants us the ability to do good to others in the first place.

    To those seriously practicing religion (Sanathana Dharma), striving for one's emancipation is the ultimate goal. It is like doctors wanting recognition in their field. Surely, we would not question the doctors why they want and work for recognition in their field instead of using their excess time to work for others? Surely, they will say, yes they can work for others, but that does not mean they should not strive for eminence in their chosen field. It is the same way for those involved in the field of religion. Those truly religious will surely work for the welfare of others at some capacity that is possible for them, but to aim for salvation is their goal for themselves.

    Hope this is clear!

    Thanks.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: A distant dream???

    Namaste.,

    Uncontrolled emotions are the root cause of 'uncivilized' behavior. Our frustration begins with exact same line of expression and when it is not held with patience, understood with maturity, we ought to turn in to the very same that we feel frustrated with.

    For those who kill with a knife, they meet the same fate with another knife!

    We don't question our level of moral and direct & indirect support to injustice but when we happen to pay the price for it, we question the existence of God! At least, God has equipped you with so many different instruments to engage with the problem, build the idea of peace and also sincerity to practice it. Who said, we are made only to feel frustrated and complain? We can also "Solve" and start to believe in it! Peace is what we have, not what we get from stores!

    When all of the empowerment to individuals exhausts, that's when Lord require His personal presence! and we haven't exhausted our abilities yet in the age of Kali!

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    Re: A distant dream???

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    To those seriously practicing religion (Sanathana Dharma), striving for one's emancipation is the ultimate goal. It is like doctors wanting recognition in their field. Surely, we would not question the doctors why they want and work for recognition in their field instead of using their excess time to work for others? Surely, they will say, yes they can work for others, but that does not mean they should not strive for eminence in their chosen field. It is the same way for those involved in the field of religion. Those truly religious will surely work for the welfare of others at some capacity that is possible for them, but to aim for salvation is their goal for themselves.

    Hope this is clear!

    Thanks.
    Dear Viraja ji,

    Namaste,

    I can relate to this paragraph of yours the best because I am a doctor myself.

    To be frank not many of us doctors strive for recognition in our field.

    For me for example..I look as myself just as a doctor and that's my job and nothing more and nothing less.

    Many of my co doctors too think the same way even though we work day and night.

    Its just our duty.Most of us never think of an individual recognition because ego is not what we want but that does not mean we indulge in inaction either.

    As a doctor, one realizes how limited and helpless the human life is..because at any one given time a life can be lost and even the best doctor might not be able to do anything.


    Many of us at many times have felt that nothing is really in our hands to a great extent.

    That is enough to cut off any form of individual pride that technically I am nothing and all I can do is my duty done right and nothing more.

    So if you ask me I feel there is no correlation between a duty of a doctor and individual prayer in my opinion...seeking personal gain of any kind should not be the name of the game.

    That is why I feel praying for self salvation seems a selfish act at the present moment when there is so much injustice and suffering.

    The mind just cant pray for it sees that as individualistic and self centred.

    I believe in the All or None Phenomenon..Peace is for all or for none..the day Peace is for all that's the day I might consider self salvation.

  10. #10
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    Re: A distant dream???

    Dear Renuka ji,

    While working towards eminence one's chosen profession by itself is a praise-worthy ideal, those in spiritual pursuits are going beyond many steps further - they are looking for 'perfecting themselves' - a commendable ideal indeed.

    And, although prayers may not change the immediate karmas, they can change the course of events in following lifetimes. What proof can I give for this? Well, all I can say is that it is belief that makes us all function today, the belief that we will 'live' tomorrow, that the Sun will lit our skies tomorrow, etc. It is the same belief, the life-sustaining force, that makes us believe in god.

    You said: "That is why I feel praying for self salvation seems a selfish act at the present moment when there is so much injustice and suffering."

    How can praying to perfect oneself of flaws in personality become a selfish act? Eating/sleeping/bathing/earning performing a profession, etc seem to be more selfish acts. If one can allocate time for these mundane activities, then why should allocating time for perfecting oneself seem selfish? (Would you rather say that the numerous self-realized saint of Hinduism spent their time 'selfishly'?).
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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