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Thread: Who Can Learn the Veda's

  1. #61

    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Namaste,

    What will be the Varna of adopted child?
    If I adopt a child, will the child get my varna?
    Or it depends upon her/his Guna and Karma when the cild grows up?
    Thy right is to work only, but never with its fruits; let not the fruits of the action be thy motive, nor let thy attachment be to inaction.

  2. #62

    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Namaste SM,

    I do not understand. Sorry. Validity of what is in Bharata only? Lord or His created catur varnyam? How can anything of this Universe be outside of Lord's creation? And how can Lord be valid only for Bharata?

    Om
    The orthodoxy that only a brahmin by birth can be a brahmin which comes from smritis is valid only for bharata as smritis are not applicable outside. Even venturing into the sea leads to loss of one's cast according to some smritis.

    Hence I was arguing that the laws on restrition on varNa's is not applicable to westerners since it is guna-karma which determine varNa and not birth as per krishna and smartic restrictions don't apply to them. So a westerner with brahmin temperment should have no restriction of being identifying with the btahmin varNa. .

    I think it is the guna-karma and appropriate samaskaras which should determine varNa. Birth is also a factor for people of this land, but I don't find it acceptable to be the main deciding factor.

    I am not knowlegable enough on smritis, but a bulk of them seem to be later handiwork and contradicts many societal norms of ramayana, mahabharata or even chankya's time. These later perversions must be flushed down the drain.
    What is Here, is Elsewhere. What is not Here, is Nowhere.

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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by sm78 View Post

    I am not knowlegable enough on smritis, but a bulk of them seem to be later handiwork and contradicts many societal norms of ramayana, mahabharata or even chankya's time. These later perversions must be flushed down the drain.
    Mahabharata Shanti parva

    "Yudhishthira said, 'Thou O grandsire, art endued with wisdom and knowledge of the scriptures, with conduct and behaviour, with diverse kinds of excellent attributes, and also with years. Thou art distinguished above others by intelligence and wisdom and penances. I shall, therefore, O thou that art the foremost of all righteous men, desire to address enquiries to thee respecting Righteousness. There is not another man, O king, in all the worlds, who is worthier of being questioned on such subjects. O best of kings, how may one, if he happens to be a Kshatriya or a Vaisya or a Sudra, succeed in acquiring the status of a Brahmana? It behoveth thee to tell me the means. Is it by penances the most austere, or by religious acts, or by knowledge of the scriptures, that a person belonging to any of the three inferior orders succeeds in acquiring the status of a Brahmana? Do tell me this, O grandsire!'
    "Bhishma said, 'The status of a Brahmana, O Yudhishthira, is incapable of acquisition by a person belonging to any of the three other orders. That status is the highest with respect to all creatures. Travelling through innumerable orders of existence, by undergoing repeated births, one at last, in some birth, becomes born as a Brahmana.


    ...."Bhishma continued, 'Hearing these words of his, Purandara said unto him. The status of a Brahmana, O Matanga, which thou desirest to acquire is really unattainable by thee. It is true, thou desirest to acquire it, but then it is incapable of acquisition by persons begotten on uncleansed souls. O thou of foolish understanding, thou art sure to meet with destruction if thou persistest in this pursuit. Desist, therefore, from this vain endeavour without any delay. This object of thy desire, viz., the status of a Brahmana, which is the foremost of everything, is incapable of being won by penances. Therefore, by coveting that foremost status, thou wilt incur sure destruction. One born as a Chandala can never attain to that status which is regarded as the most sacred among the deities and Asuras and human beings!'"

    The whole story of Matanga in detail:

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m13/m13a027.htm

    So it cannot be said that smritis contradict the Mahabharata regarding the statement that Varna can only by acquired by birth.

    Guna seems to play a role insofar as it determines the rebirth. So the general rule at least in vedic and vedantic or in "mainstream" Hinduism, exemplified in Mahabharata seems to be that Varna can be acquired solely by birth, birth again is determined by karma and guna, whether there where some exceptions to that general rule or whether we like that or not, or want a reform of that rule, is a different question.

  4. #64
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by MahaHrada View Post
    Guna seems to play a role insofar as it determines the rebirth. So the general rule at least in vedic and vedantic or in "mainstream" Hinduism, exemplified in Mahabharata seems to be that Varna can be acquired solely by birth, birth again is determined by karma and guna, whether there where some exceptions to that general rule or whether we like that or not, or want a reform of that rule, is a different question.
    This would also mean that people who are brAhmaNas in this birth, unless they hold on to their dharma, at least to the extent desired by the mainstream AchAryas in this Kali Yuga, cannot take it for granted that they would be born into the same varNa and caste in their next birth.

    On the other hand, people who are the equivalent of brAhmaNas by their guNa and actions in this birth, whether they are Indian or Western Hindus, are likely to be born in the brAhmaNa varNa/caste in their next birth. This could be a comforting thought for them, for after all human life is short!
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    This would also mean that people who are brAhmaNas in this birth, unless they hold on to their dharma, at least to the extent desired by the mainstream AchAryas in this Kali Yuga, cannot take it for granted that they would be born into the same varNa and caste in their next birth.

    On the other hand, people who are the equivalent of brAhmaNas by their guNa and actions in this birth, whether they are Indian or Western Hindus, are likely to be born in the brAhmaNa varNa/caste in their next birth. This could be a comforting thought for them, for after all human life is short!
    I don´t know whether there is a requirement for a huge percentage of brahmins in todays or future society.

    I personally would not aspire to be a brahmin by birth, especially not in Kali Yuga, because in my opinon there are a lot of disadvantages connected with being a brahmin, since the required learning curve is hard and the perfomance of all the required shrauta ritual duties and regulations regarding purity is cumbersome.

    If one is born a brahmin and does not follow the shruti, because of ignorance, diluted traditions, or negative circumstances, or because the genetics are mixed, this can become the cause for problems in life.

    On the other hand, when one is born in any other varna or no varna, with less regular religious duties or even no duties, every virtuous act you do out of your own decison and free will, adds to your well being.

    Recently i read that there are only about 1000 brahmins left, in all of india who actually follow the shrauta tradition. And only to receive the mantras of the vedic or shrautra tradition one would need to be a brahmin by birth, all agamic traditions and Yoga can be practised irrespective of varna.
    Especially for westerners to get an impression of ancient shrauta ritual tradition this excerpt from a movie posted on a blog might prove helpful:

    http://varnam.org/blog/2009/02/how-old-are-our-mantras/


    In the story of Matanga, in the Mahabharata there are some details about how the birth in a brahmin family is attained:

    "From the order of brute life one attains to the status of humanity. If born as human being, he is sure to take birth as a Pukkasa or a Chandala. Verily, one having taken birth in that sinful order of existence, viz., Pukkasa, one, O Matanga has to wander in it for a very long time. Passing a period of one thousand years in that order, one attains next to the status of a Sudra. In the Sudra order, again, one has to wander for a long time. After thirty thousand years one acquire the status of a Vaisya. There, in that order, one has to pass a very long period. After a time that is sixty times longer than what has been stated as the period of Sudra existence, one becomes a person of the fighting order. In the Kshatriya order one has to pass a very long time. After a time that is measured by multiplying the period last referred to by sixty, one becomes born as a fallen Brahmana. In this order one has to wander for a long period. After a time measured by multiplying the period last named by two hundred, one becomes born in the race of such a Brahmana as lives by the profession of arms. There, in that order, one has to wander for a long period. After a time measured by multiplying the period last named by three hundred, one takes birth in the race of a Brahmana that is given to the recitation of the Gayatri and other sacred Mantras. There, in that order, one has to wander for a long period. After a time measured by multiplying the period last named by four hundred, one takes birth in the race of such a Brahmana as is conversant with the entire Vedas and the scriptures, There, in that order, one has to wander for a very long period. While wandering in that status of existence, joy and grief, desire and aversion vanity and evil speech, seek to enter into him and make a wretch of him. If he succeeds in subjugating those foes, he then attains a high end. If, on the other hand, those enemies succeed in subjugating him, he falls down from that high status like a person falling down on the ground from the high top of a palmyra tree. Knowing this for certain, O Matanga, I say unto thee, do thou name some other boon, for the status of a Brahmana is incapable of being attained by thee"

    Last edited by MahaHrada; 16 February 2009 at 11:54 AM.

  6. #66

    Cool Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Namaste All,

    I don't think anybody can become brahman by birth

    I had learned on some text that the original brahmans were brahamcharis and they had no childrens

    My brahman gotras are from those who were born in lower castes like Matang and Prashar were chandals, Vyas was son of Prashar and a dhuwar woman, Author of 'Itrey Brahman' wasson of a brahman father and shudra mother etc etc.

    Even Maharshi Valmiki was Ratnakar Sharma, Sharmas are now brahmans but Valmikis reserved SC

    All this is 4 caste reservation & nothing else

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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by MahaHrada View Post
    In my opinion Hinduism does not need to adapt to western values and demands of converts, on the contrary i think in general it has succumbend already way too much to many misleading western attitudes and conventions and also to hypocrite christian morals and values and some even perverted bharata dharma into some sort of monotheism, just for the sake of being more readily accepted by christian Westerners as equals.
    Can you elaborate on this? What 'values' has Hinduism adapted to to suit western attitudes?

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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Namaste all,

    I never thought this thread would go so long !

    I thank Yajvanji, Atanu & all others for their valuable inputs. However I see it in a simple way :

    What if I ask this question :

    "Who is fit to study Maths?" ?

    What should be the correct answer ? The simple answer is, "The person who can understand Maths !". Now does the capability of learning maths come from by virtue of his birth in a certain caste, region, sex or religion ? A Very Strong "NO" !

    Similarly, any knowledge must be imparted only to the student who can understand the subject correctly. And that capability certainly doesn't come by birth. A person doesn't become a brahmin just by virtue of his birth. He must possess the qualities of a brahmin, as Lord Krishna elaborates in the Bhagwad Gita. Similarly, if a person possesses the required qualities he is actually a brahmin irrespective of his caste by birth. Didn't Lord Krishna say in BG that the division is based on Guna & Karma (& certainly not on the basis of birth).

    Discriminating people on caste by birth, place of birth, skin color, religion by birth, social /financial status, lineage, sex is actually a crime against humanity. If there is a "God" who accepts this discrimination, he is certainly not my God.

    Regards,

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste all,

    Didn't Lord Krishna say in BG that the division is based on Guna & Karma (& certainly not on the basis of birth).

    Discriminating people on caste by birth, place of birth, skin color, religion by birth, social /financial status, lineage, sex is actually a crime against humanity. If there is a "God" who accepts this discrimination, he is certainly not my God.

    Regards,

    OM
    Namaste Devotee,

    I concur fully with you that discrimination based on birth, social /financial status, lineage, sex is crime. Yet, I feel that there is another aspect that needs to be clarified for the sake of a grudge/discrimination and bias free existence. Lord Krishna, in addition to stating that the four varna division is based on Guna & Karma also says that He ensures good birth for certain souls. He certainly speaks of repeated birth and the role of Karma over several lives that controls birth.

    Much discontent in individuals (and in society) can be mitigated, if it is understood that if one is born in a certain ambience with certain qualities (bad or good), it is by one's karma. Without knowing or with half understanding of Karma and its role in one's destiny/environment, one will only crib about 'others'.



    Regards.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~


    Namasté atanu-ji (et.al)


    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Lord Krishna, in addition to stating that the four varna division is based on Guna & Karma also says that He ensures good birth for certain souls. Om Namah Shivaya

    I thought to add this for the reader that is following this conversation along. How does 4 varṇa occur? One would think there are 3 guṇa-s why not 3 varṇa?

    Kṛṣṇa tells us in the Bhāgavad gītā¹ that at the core of the 4 fold order or division of society (cātur-varṇyaṁ) it is based upon the 3 guṇa-s. That varṇa¹ is the following: brahmaṇa-s, kṣatriya-s, vaiśya-s, and śudra-s.

    Yet you have to ask if there are 3 guṇa-s how do you get 4 varṇa? It is based on the 3 guṇa-s primary and secondary combinations. We needn't go to the tertiary or 3rd level because if the 1st and 2nd levels are not possible, the 3 level will not matter.

    1. Sattva as primary and rajas as secondary
    2. Sattva as primary and tamas as secondary

    3. Rajas as primary and sattva as secondary
    4. Rajas as primary and tamas as secondary

    5. Tamas as primary and sattva as secondary
    6. Tamas as primary and rajas as secondary

    Note the 2nd and 5th combinations are not possible due to the drastic contrast of sattva and tamas. This leaves us with 4 possible varṇa that align this way:
    • brahmaṇa-s : Sattva as primary and rajas as secondary
    • kṣatriya-s : Rajas as primary and sattva as seconday
    • vaiśya-s : Rajas as primary and tamas as secondary
    • śudra-s : Tamas as primary and rajas as secondary
    praṇām

    words and references
    • Bhāgavad gītā - 4 fold order - Chapt 4, 13th śloka
    • varṇa वर्ण - color or variation of color; color then considers species , kind, sort, character, nature, quality, property, class, kula, tribe, order or, caste
    • More on the guna-s at this HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...55&postcount=5 , post 5 & 6.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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