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Thread: Question about "heavy ocean on top of me" situation

  1. #21

    Re: Question about "heavy ocean on top of me" situation

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    For one to 'appear to' lose the existential ego completely, they would have to be in an avadhUt-like or python-like state all the time (glimpses/moments of which you seem to have seen?)- and not respond to external inputs from the world. Even in that state it is said that the existential ego is never vanquished, only dormant.
    Namaste,
    Are you (and perhaps others) responding to my worded claim of egolessness, as most formally defined (and understood)? To be clear, I hope that the words I have shared have shown differences between how I would describe my experience and how one might define the term.

    I do not recall any inability to respond to external inputs.

  2. #22

    Re: Question about "heavy ocean on top of me" situation

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    If this experience of Self is there during wake, this is good. If it lost during dream and sleep , then it has not fully ripened.

    Now the question - do you wish to develp this sense of Self all the time? Or are you just trying to understand the experience you had?
    This helps me better understand your intent.

    iti śivaṁ
    Given time, I finally read the words right. I do not know if I should claim an experience of Self at all. That is why I try to make my own statements, and I hope I do not get tangled up in bad semantics, and produce bad communication.

    Is interacting in text like trying to fit a camel through the eye of a needle?

    Swimming in bliss - sure, there was that for a couple of hours, but Self? What's that? Does it say, "I am Self, now you know who I am"? Is Self in reference to the joyous me that rushed into my body that day? That Self did not say who or what it was. On that basis, I do not think of myself as having known such a thing. Perhaps, but nobody said such a thing.

    Any awareness at all is when awake, not when dreaming or in deep sleep. I have tried to describe a mundane satisfaction and lack of inner conflict. This is not how I remember it before. Previously, I experienced inner pain from inner conflict. Now, I experience things that could be regarded as better or worse, but I don't participate in those experiences directly. I know the feeling of wanting things to be different than they are. I know what it means for me to say, "darn", and to act that out, as I would say "by way of programming", but I don't care about it. Some people say (philosophically), "It's all good", but I say, "It all doesn't matter".

    And I am experiencing the body - no doubts there. I feel physical pain, and I don't like the way that that feels. I would choose to get out of that. I like tasty, nutritious food, and I think and act out fears. I don't see how all of this is possible according to a strict definition of some greater existence. I think I'm full of crappy programming/habits; I would prefer not to be. I fear being held back by not being clean enough (like the smoking).

    Is there no place in dharma philosophy for earthly satisfaction without enlightenment? Perhaps I am easily satisfied, and in a circumstance where a more developed soul would continue to be dissatisfied. Perhaps 26% of the population feels the way that I do. I am open to more. In this satisfaction, I think it is logical to want to grow. I have read of greater things - beyond body altogether. That is something I would like to do. Such desires seem logical, but satisfaction makes them not compelling. Nothing is compelling. Nothing has inner impetus. But everything is nothing, and beyond the body - simply a good thing.

  3. #23
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    Re: Question about "heavy ocean on top of me" situation

    Namaste, MarkMe.

    I saw this thread a while ago and waited for others to respond, since my 'Yoga Teacher Days' are very long ago and I was looking for the best way to respond to you.

    I agree with you that the use of "I" or 'self-relating terms' in everyday usage of the English language is essential to try and communicate with others, even when one has subdued their ego...so yes, I also get slightly annoyed when semantics come into play regarding this issue..but nonetheless..

    I also agree with yajvan, who says that 'many people would stop there'.

    The very first thing my Yoga/meditation teacher ever taught me...the very first words that were ever said to me, went something along the lines of:

    "In meditation, you will experience a lot of weird sensations...see bright lights and weird colours and even believe you have reached the goal and subdued your ego...ignore it!. This is only your mind still playing tricks on you. Always say to your mind "okay then, thanks for that, but when you are done, let's move on, shall we?" and continue with your meditation".

    No doubt you have experienced something and what that is, or the extent of it is personal and we wouldn't know...even if you describe it...but there's more...there's always more to it...or else you wouldn't (probably wouldn't who knows) be posting here.

    They say "if you see Buddha on the road, kill Him" and I try and live by that philosophy.

    I have seen Lord Shiva "on the road"...but I really don't want to kill Him because I like walking with Him to whatever destination He leads me. I am fully aware that once I 'kill' Lord Shiva, there will be no turning back for me from that point on and the whole idea of that just terrifies me.

    So, for now, just ignore it and continue to meditate. If you worship any form of Deity, ask for their guidance also.

    All the best with your future practices.

    Aum Namah Shivaya

  4. #24
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    Re: Question about "heavy ocean on top of me" situation

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkMe View Post
    ... but Self? What's that? Does it say, "I am Self, now you know who I am"? Is Self in reference to the joyous me that rushed into my body that day? That Self did not say who or what it was. On that basis, I do not think of myself as having known such a thing. Perhaps, but nobody said such a thing.
    It would be helpful to get a handle on this part of the conversation...
    Note that Self does not say ' I am Self' as this Self is the real you. So, if it introduces itself to you, it is not another , it is your own real Being. Get to know the notion of Being a bit more and this may assist you. Consider this post ( albeit a bit advanced in its offer).
    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=11402

    The notion of 'Self' has confused many for some time. If I had my own way I perhaps would use another term - more of Universal Self would be more apropos - again this is not another, but your real state of existence. This is what our sanātana dharma will bring to conversation. This knowledge is quite profound and takes more then one 'sitting' to get aligned to it; but once one 'gets it' it becomes a reference point for understanding.

    Let me ask an uncomfortable question ( but still needs to be asked). During this time period you mentioned, did you or were you a user of any recreational drugs or psychotropic medications ?

    iti śivaṁ
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  5. #25

    Re: Question about "heavy ocean on top of me" situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromancer View Post
    Namaste, MarkMe.

    I saw this thread a while ago and waited for others to respond, since my 'Yoga Teacher Days' are very long ago and I was looking for the best way to respond to you.

    ...

    The very first thing my Yoga/meditation teacher ever taught me...the very first words that were ever said to me, went something along the lines of:

    "In meditation, you will experience a lot of weird sensations...see bright lights and weird colours and even believe you have reached the goal and subdued your ego...ignore it!. This is only your mind still playing tricks on you. Always say to your mind "okay then, thanks for that, but when you are done, let's move on, shall we?" and continue with your meditation".

    No doubt you have experienced something and what that is, or the extent of it is personal and we wouldn't know...even if you describe it...but there's more...there's always more to it...or else you wouldn't (probably wouldn't who knows) be posting here.

    They say "if you see Buddha on the road, kill Him" and I try and live by that philosophy.
    Absolutely right. Something happened, and I don’t know what.

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromancer
    I have seen Lord Shiva "on the road"...but I really don't want to kill Him because I like walking with Him to whatever destination He leads me. I am fully aware that once I 'kill' Lord Shiva, there will be no turning back for me from that point on and the whole idea of that just terrifies me.
    That reminds me of what I said posting here – “afraid of not handling the energy”. A fear of what may be the big, final loss of self, in my case, in the form of a physical manifestation of mental anxiety, which in my experience can be very tricky stuff. Actually, since I had a spell of beyond, it turns out to be a blessing that helps support the simple understanding of, “What energy? I did that already”.

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromancer
    So, for now, just ignore it and continue to meditate. If you worship any form of Deity, ask for their guidance also.

    All the best with your future practices.
    Thank you, and I will also say thank you to everyone who has participated in this discussion. I’m sure it has taken patience and kindness to have done so.

    I am coming to this same conclusion as well. I’m picking up a sense of direction, and of the new, great challenges that await. I find this to actually be a good feeling.

  6. #26

    Re: Question about "heavy ocean on top of me" situation

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    It would be helpful to get a handle on this part of the conversation...
    Note that Self does not say ' I am Self' as this Self is the real you. So, if it introduces itself to you, it is not another , it is your own real Being. Get to know the notion of Being a bit more and this may assist you. Consider this post ( albeit a bit advanced in its offer).
    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=11402

    The notion of 'Self' has confused many for some time. If I had my own way I perhaps would use another term - more of Universal Self would be more apropos - again this is not another, but your real state of existence. This is what our sanātana dharma will bring to conversation. This knowledge is quite profound and takes more then one 'sitting' to get aligned to it; but once one 'gets it' it becomes a reference point for understanding.
    I would not, at this point, plan on thinking "Self" without individuation.
    I reference the paper I wrote which infers this condition in this thread.
    You were very helpful in Hindu equivalents for A, E, and I.
    Thank you.

    edit-add: Actually, shortly after these experiences, I joined this forum, and called myself 'MarkMe'. The first part is 'Mark' the name of the individuated little self. The second was "Me", which was without all of that - just "Self".

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan
    Let me ask an uncomfortable question ( but still needs to be asked). During this time period you mentioned, did you or were you a user of any recreational drugs or psychotropic medications ?
    No. Neither.

    - Mark
    Last edited by MarkMe; 22 May 2013 at 09:19 PM.

  7. #27

    Re: Question about "heavy ocean on top of me" situation

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    It would be helpful to get a handle on this part of the conversation...
    Note that Self does not say ' I am Self' as this Self is the real you. So, if it introduces itself to you, it is not another , it is your own real Being. Get to know the notion of Being a bit more and this may assist you. Consider this post ( albeit a bit advanced in its offer).
    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=11402

    The notion of 'Self' has confused many for some time. If I had my own way I perhaps would use another term - more of Universal Self would be more apropos - again this is not another, but your real state of existence. This is what our sanātana dharma will bring to conversation. This knowledge is quite profound and takes more then one 'sitting' to get aligned to it; but once one 'gets it' it becomes a reference point for understanding.
    You know, I find it funny that over the course of discussion in this thread, that at a couple of points in it, I found it disconcerting that references were made to the blissful experience and not the experience I was speaking out of. The blissful experience came the day after the experience of the little 'snap' or 'pop' in the center of the head. By the day of the bliss, I had already started to develop a new mental framework for being some ego-less dude.

    And I come to see that because the blissful experience lasted for only a couple of hours and then ended, that I put this as somehow being rejected to continue to have it, or that I was not worthy of it, so that was how I interpreted it, therefore; I probably became afraid of not being worthy of any higher self or existence.

    From the Awareness, Existence, Individuation model, jajvan, I think we say the same thing. I started many years ago with A and E from my idea of purusha and prakriti. I then derived I for individuation as an effect of the simultaneity of of A and E. So everything there is is

    Awareness upon Individuated Existence

    Or, as one poster pointed out, Self turning in upon itself would be A turning in upon A, or if facing creation at all, would include the I aspect, or an existence-ego.

    And there is no Individuation (parapara) in awareness upon awareness, or Self upon Self.

  8. #28
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    Re: Question about "heavy ocean on top of me" situation

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkMe View Post
    I would not, at this point, plan on thinking "Self" without individuation.
    I reference the paper I wrote which infers this condition in this thread.
    You were very helpful in Hindu equivalents for A, E, and I.
    Thank you.

    edit-add: Actually, shortly after these experiences, I joined this forum, and called myself 'MarkMe'. The first part is 'Mark' the name of the individuated little self. The second was "Me", which was without all of that - just "Self".



    No. Neither.

    - Mark
    Namaste.

    On Yoga Forums, my name is/was 'nobody'.

    Very nice name when people say 'nobody cares' or 'nobody is interested'.

    I was taking full advantage of my user-name at any opportunity of over-generalization...

    It was also meant to represent the formless "I"...like "who are you?" "why, I am "nobody".

    It worked well for a time, until I started describing my experiences with Lord Shiva on a forum full of Atheists...

    Then, it was like "nobody is stupid" and it was pointed out that my user-name failed to commensurate with my 'lack of humility'.

    Oh yes, if you have experienced anything you can't speak about it, because it immediately invalidates any experience you've had...assuming you've experienced anything in the first place!

    I learned my lesson and left that forum 6 months ago...never to return.

    I am 'nobody' on there.

    Aum Namah Shivaya

  9. #29
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    Re: Question about "heavy ocean on top of me" situation

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    We look at the wonderful questions and observations that Markme has offered the forum. It supports the knowledge that appears in the pratyabhijñāhṛdayam¹ , 12th sūtra , found therein; it says:

    tadaparijñāne svaśaktibhirvyāmohitatā saṁsāritvam | 12

    This says,
    to be the saṃsārin¹ (saṁsāritvam) or the one that goes from birth-to-both means to be bewildered or perplexed (vyāmohitatā¹) by one's own powers (śaktibhiḥ) on account of the complete ignorance (aparijñāne¹) of that (tad)

    What is 'that' or tad ? It is the authorship of the 5 fold act that the Supreme is always engaged in. What are these 5 things ?
    • sṛṣṭi - manifesting
    • sthiti - maintaining
    • saṁhāra - reabsorption
    • vilaya or concealment of His essential Universal nature
    • anugraha - divine grace which allows the Self to reveal itSelf to itSelf.
    That is, being human, we are somewhat perplexed on our status. We have an experience that is significant; the experience gives us a small glimpse of our real nature and we are not sure what occurred.

    This is not a bad thing , or, are we to find any fault. It is now up to the individual to move forward and unfold one's real status or let it remain dormant until a future date.

    iti śivaṁ
    words
    • pratyabhijñāhṛdayam - this is twenty sūtra-s written by kṣemarāja-ji . It is the nectar ( or condensed version) of utpaladeva-ji's Īśvarapratyabhijñā which offers 199 sūtra-s
    • saṃsārin - attached to mundane existence ; moving far and wide
    • vyāmohita - bewildered, infatuated.
    • aparijñāne - means 'not flashing forth'; not aware of
    Last edited by yajvan; 23 May 2013 at 07:50 PM.
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  10. #30
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    Re: Question about "heavy ocean on top of me" situation

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    We look at the wonderful questions and observations that Markme has offered the forum. It supports the knowledge that appears in the pratyabhijñāhṛdayam¹ , 12th sūtra , found therein; it says:

    tadaparijñāne svaśaktibhirvyāmohitatā saṁsāritvam | 12

    This says,
    to be the saṃsārin¹ (saṁsāritvam) or the one that goes from birth-to-both means to be bewildered or perplexed (vyāmohitatā¹) by one's own powers (śaktibhiḥ) on account of the complete ignorance (aparijñāne¹) of that (tad)

    What is 'that' or tad ? It is the authorship of the 5 fold act that the Supreme is always engaged in. What are these 5 things ?
    • sṛṣṭi - manifesting
    • sthiti - maintaining
    • saṁhāra - reabsorption
    • vilaya or concealment of His essential Universal nature
    • anugraha - divne grace which allows the Self to reveal itSelf to itSelf.
    That is, being human, we are somewhat perplexed on our status. We have an experience that is significant; the experience gives us a small glimpse of our real nature and we are not sure what occurred.

    This is not a bad thing , or, are we to find any fault. It is now up to the individual to move forward and unfold one's real status or let it remain dormant until a future date.

    iti śivaṁ
    words
    • pratyabhijñāhṛdayam - this is twenty sūtra-s written by kṣemarāja-ji . It is the nectar ( or condensed version) of utpaladeva-ji's Īśvarapratyabhijñā which offers 199 sūtra-s
    • saṃsārin - attached to mundane existence ; moving far and wide
    • vyāmohita - bewildered, infatuated.
    • aparijñāne - means 'not flashing forth'; not aware of
    Namaste, Yajvan.

    Very nicely expressed. I can actually understand this post.

    Throughout my life, I can count 6 times (if I am counting) I've had a 'glimpse into my true nature', however, like you said, I am not certain what has occurred...well, I am 'pretty certain' of it, but during times of hard dhyan meditation...the concentration is so intense, one can only hold it very briefly....not even for a second.

    I have never gone through that door though, even though I have peered inside...something always holds me back and I have reached the conclusion that I am 'just not ready'.

    I've decided to 'put it off for a later date'...it's something I shall probably revisit on my deathbed.

    For now, I continue to worship Lord Shiva and there's no doubt in my mind He is there, guiding me through His love.

    Aum Namah Shivaya

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