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Thread: How to fight Casteism?

  1. #41
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    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    I find numerous misunderstandings about the rebirth, karma, Gunas and the Varna classification. I wish Geeta was clear on these matters. Some (People like RadhaKrishnan) define Varna is nothing to do with birth. The emphasis is on guna (aptitude) and karma (function) and not on jaati (birth). ( BG Ch 4 verse 13 )The Varna or the order to which we belong is independent of sex, birth or breeding. A caste is determined by temperament and vocation - not by birth or heredity. Some even say originally Varna was assigned to people based on their aptitude and qualities but in later periods they were assigned based on birth.

    The opposite view is expressed in http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part20/chap3.htm and it vehemently says that “Sri Krishna establishes that an individual owes his caste to his birth. There should not be the slightest doubt about it” WOW!! I guess this comes from the concept that Soul at the time of death departs the body taking all the Gunas developed by the activities so far gone through. This is how Rajagopalachari puts it. ( BG Ch15 verse 8)
    These are conflicting ideas and very confusing and I see good arguments on both sides. But if Geeta is going to give clear answer there has to be one TRUTH.

    Personally I tend to favor the first idea as it make more contemporary sense as we view God’s love is there for every one.

    I hope some of you has a clear answer.

    Love ...... VC
    Last edited by vcindiana; 07 March 2009 at 01:20 PM.

  2. #42

    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    Quote Originally Posted by reflections View Post
    Namaste,
    This is a long post. Please bear with me. I have a friend who belongs to a small village, he is very intelligent and made has made a good progress in his life. But, I was shocked by some of his attitudes. Please see our conversation.

    he: I don't like new policies where education is accesible to all.
    Our toilet cleaner's sons are having good jobs, so the mother have stopped working as a toiler cleaner.

    me: Isn't that good?

    he: No, but initially they were polite and always sat on the floor when they come to home as guests. Now they have started sitting on Chairs.

    me: who so ever comes to my place receives a good hospitality. Why should a lower caste person should not sit on the chair?

    he: Yes, but toilet cleaning, garbage collection etc. are also tasks to be done, and who will do that?

    me: come on, if my son does not have brains, he will do menial works. If toilet cleaner's son has brains, he will do a reputed job.

    he: No, but they are born to do that job.

    I did not continue the discussion.

    So, this is not to bash my dear friend, but there are many many people like him. How to change people's attitude where they think that they have God given right to treat other's as subhuman.
    Pranam,
    Why can't your friend clean his own toilet and take out his own garbage? If indeed the so called lower caste become educated or able to get a better job then so be it. You then must find/pay someone else to be a sanitation worker. If we look down on someone, someone else will just look down on us.

    How is it that we think that we do anything of ourselves? We can't change anything that God has created without HIS/HER permission. After all, All is God, God is still in charge.

    Namaste,

  3. #43
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    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    Namaste all:

    It is basically fact that casteism, racism, sexism, ageism, etc is with us for whatever reason. Personally I see it as a tool for our own character development or spiritual unfoldment, allowed to happen through God's gift of a keen observation. Remember that this is the kaliyuga after all. Here are some of my observations:
    1) In general the older you are, the less likely you are to be able to change. This is because the subconscious mind solidifies with each new impression, like clay hardens over time. Attempting to change an older person stuck in his/her ways is a total waste of good energy. Frankly, it ain't gonna happen.
    2) People have difficulty looking into mirrors. Often one thinks he is 'higher' or 'lower' than he/she would be seen by others. Rich idiots illustrate this. A rich famous man might be totally unvirtuous, a thief, condescending, not willing to be charitable etc, and the rest of us who look at him see him as 'low' whilst he retains his pomposity of his self inflicted highness.
    3) One person's low caste is another's high. There are the stories of how Gandhi served tea to the British pomp, and how he joyfully cleaned the latrines in SA.
    4) Change is best induced by example, provided the person observing you is able. We really have no business analysing the behaviour of others unless it is to learn so we can improve our own behaviour. Unless we have mystical siddhis we cannot take on other's karma.
    5) Caste/class remains dependant on cultural norms within a given culture, and hence in this ongoing intercultural mixing, it gets even more confusing. I remember my Mauritian lawyer friend being extremely surprised that a lawyer here in Canada didn't have a house servant, yet both scenarios are perfectly normal within each respective culture.

    Just my two bits...sorry for rambling. Aum Namasivaya
    Last edited by Eastern Mind; 04 April 2009 at 07:48 AM. Reason: clarity

  4. #44
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    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    Quote Originally Posted by vcindiana View Post
    Personally I tend to favor the first idea as it make more contemporary sense as we view God’s love is there for every one.

    I hope some of you has a clear answer.

    Love ...... VC
    The view of Radhakrishnan and Kamakoti saint are not opposites. That is the irony of partial understanding as per one's wish and preference. And that is the work of Guna.

    Varna, acquired through good or bad karma, decides/infuences the kula-jati-ambience-environment-path-support system etc. etc. for the mind of the jivatma.

    The karma-varna-kula are interlinked. God ensures the linkage. It is called daivam but it is karma to start with for the jiva.


    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 11 March 2009 at 03:36 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  5. #45
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    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Varna, acquired through good or bad karma, decides/infuences the kula-jati-ambience-environment-path-support system etc. etc. for the mind of the jivatma.
    Om Namah Shivaya
    Namaste VC

    Yet, karma and ignorance are not eternal and ends for a particular jiva, with right knowledge or more correctly with the removal of the darkness of ignorance that "I am a doer".

    The evils of so-called inequality termed as casteism for Hindus and class discrimination universally, is anAdimat -- without a beginning. This evil is created by ego, is for ego, and is perceived by ego. Trying to reform externally is like fighting with oneself, which is actually infinite and thus whatever one sees is within the Mahat - the Lord Mind, which got created by the powers of the Self to give expression to sprouting of seeds of love.

    No jiva, untill the ignorance reigns as the king, is beyond karma and thus beyond caste or class. But the Jnanis are called atiashrami and casteless.

    Thus, I think, to uproot the evils of caste or inequalities of class one must first uproot the inequalities of "I" and "They" and "We" and "Them" and get established in Pragnya -- be a stithipragnya. Pragnyaghana -- the wisdom unbroken by thoughts is homogeneous, samAn. To become fit to become stithipragnya, one's karma must be finished as worship.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  6. #46

    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    How is it that we think that we do anything of ourselves? We can't change anything that God has created without HIS/HER permission. After all, All is God, God is still in charge.
    Yeah that's part of the effing problem - GOD says this GOD says that

    it's all a bunch of bs

    God is us - take responsibility

    (not directed at the original poster)

    "There is no god but man"
    Om Hrim Kshraum Ugram Veeram Maha-Vishnum, Jwalantham Sarvatho Mukham Nrisimham Bheeshanam Bhadram Mrityu-Mrityum Namaamyaham

    Follower of Śeṣanaaga

  7. #47

    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    These days people are fed so many desires and illusions by the media, primarily through the inculcation of western ideas. Someone whose capacity extends to only being able to clean toilets, is brainwashed into thinking he can be some sort great emperor or something of that sort. The effects of advertising also create low desires in people and give them an unrealistic view of life. If a person becomes full of these taints due to his/her weakness, what is essential in that person is covered up by many false ideas. This essential part of a person is what caste refers to. Men are not born equal. It is only because of kaliyuga people cannot tell instinctively what caste another man is. People if they lived as they should, would instinctively know their place. If theoretically I was free of all false ideas and desires about myself and I met another also who was, we would both instinctively know the whose caste was superior. The Caste system has never gone away it is still there it is us humans that have degenerated.

  8. #48
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    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    Amra: What you say makes a lot of sense ... from a mountaintop perspective. Character determines caste, or at least 'should determine caste, not birth. But here in the Kaliyuga it is much more complicated, no? Individuals, because of the bombardment of ideas from all over the place, all the cultures on the planet in some sort of way, probably, have a variety of caste within themselves. Take JFK, for instance. Extremely low caste regarding promiscuity, sexual restraint etc. And yet, from his position, he had the ability to change things, and did a lot for worker's rights, minority rights etc. So now its complicated. Even auras are more complicated, or so I've been told. But your comments made me think .. which I suppose could be a good thing.

    Not sure if I'm in the fight ... castesim, that is. Surely I am an observer from my limited perspective.

    Aum Namsivaya

  9. #49

    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    I would not use the word complicated but the the word 'mixed-up'. This mixed up world we all now live in is a great test for all of humanity, a test where failure means extinction. Caste has no meaning any more, people have to realise who they really are themselves, expect no help from outside agencies and take responsibility for your own development.

  10. #50

    Re: How to fight Casteism?

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Namaste Devotee,

    I think that we are saying almost the same thing.
    chaturvarNayaM maya sRuShtaM guNakarmavibhAgaShaH |
    tasya kartAramapi mAM viddhyakartAramavyayam ||

    The Gita verse and also the one from Purusha Suktam are amenable to two types of views:

    View A. God has instituted the varna system and thus my Brahmana hood and the associated benefits are justified and the status quo should remain. Or the vice versa (in modern Democracy).

    View B. From God is the varna -- beginning with three basic varnas of White, Red, and Black. And these are contained in Him alone. So, where is varna? There is God alone.

    The point is that one cannot wish away the Varna differences that are inherent in the Universe owing to their origin from the Lord Himself. It is up to us, whether we concentrate on the differences and forget the ONE. Or whether we see ONE sutra.

    Om
    Namaste,

    I know few women who are inclined towards Buddhism allegedly because a woman is not allowed to even chant gayatri? Is it true?

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