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Thread: Single Householder

  1. #11
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    Re: Single Householder

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    Quote Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana View Post
    (emphasis mine)

    Pranam-s,

    I respectfully disagree. If the above statement is the theological view of a specific, astika-related, theological school of thought, then by all means it is absolutely correct. But, if the above is an indirect exclamation, even if it is a consideration born of personal merit, out of only good will and intention, that all Hindu and Vaidika theological schools of thought attest or stress that there is only one ultimate supreme, then this is a broad brushstroke which contests with a few facets of ground reality such as the bahudevā (many Shri Gods) theological schools of thought that still exist, such as the Shākala Shākhā initiation I received from the Suryapureen [more commonly known as Sompurā] BrāhmaNā in Uttara (Northern) Gujarat - which, as per this sub-Shākhā's evaluation of the Trayī-Veda-s, the theological stance of bahudevā is as valid as any other Hindu/Vaidika theological school of thought, such as Hindu monism, monotheism, pantheism, etc. and related sects or shākhā-s that subscribe to [or by] those theological paradigms.
    I have read your post a few times and am not sure of the position you offer so my comprehension of your point of view may be in error.
    But let me say this... we know the Supreme is infinite, without bounds, wholeness, fullness. It is 'without break or pause' is some times called avicchinnātaparamārthaṁ which means uninterrupted, yet the word I often use is satatoditam (satata + udita)
    satatoditam = satata + udita
    • satata = perpetual , continual , uninterrupted
    • udita = being high above, elevated
    If we take to this be true , how then can there be more then one Supreme ? How can there more then one wholeness, fullness, infinite ? I will grant the reader there can be many names for the Supreme of which we know many ( śiva, viṣṇu, and the like and all the others).

    From where do I get my support ? This passage that seems to resonate with this conversation is the following from the from the ṛg veda I.164.46, and ṛṣi dīrghatamas.

    He informs us:
    indraṃ mitraṃ varuṇamaghnimāhuratho divyaḥ sa suparṇo gharutmān |
    ekaṃ sad viprā bahudhā vadantyaghniṃ yamaṃ mātariśvānamāhuḥ ||

    The key words here as I see it are eka sad viprā bahudhā

    • ekaṃ = eka = one, single
    • sad = sat सत् = that which really is , entity or existence , essence , the true being or really existent; in vedānta this is the self-existent or Supreme, Brahman
    • viprā = vipra विप्र- a ṛṣi, sage, a brahmin ( the knowers of Truth)
    • bahudhā बहुधा-variously; in many ways or parts or forms or directions , manifoldly
    • divyaḥ = divya दिव्य divine , heavenly , celestial , the divine beings; deva-s
    Hence this says, Truth (sad - existence , essence, Brahman) is One ( eka ), the sages (vipra - ṛṣi-s) call it variously (bahudhā).

    He mentions the 'divyaḥ' as indra, mitra, varuṇa, agni, etc. that these are some of the names the ṛṣi-s may use to describe the Supreme i.e. He is known by various (bahudhā) names and forms.

    I rest my case... my intent is not to 'convert' but to offer the knowledge I have been availed.

    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  2. #12

    Re: Single Householder

    Pranam-s, Yajvan:

    I commend your detailed post. I, too, would like to offer knowledge that I have been availed:

    The anukramani-s declare that R.V.1.164.46 is dedicated to the Shri Vishve-Devah, as is the case with the whole hymn.

    What comes before the atom? Is it the atom itself? Or the particles that make up the atom? Do not the particles come together to create that One Truth?

    As per the commentaries of the Sompurā in Uttara Gujarat, this "One Truth" is invoked in the opposite of the "Royal We". Instead of a singular identity invoking him/her/itself in the plural, it is Many invoking Themselves in the singular. This is the Vedic knowledge that I have been availed, and the pramANa set forth is that the paradigm of bahu-devā is as valid as any other Hindu theological view, be it Hindu monism, monotheism, pantheism, etc.

    Therefore, noble Yajvan, the notion of there being only One Absolute is wonderfully correct, just as there being no absolute but many Shri Gods is also an appropriate conclusion. The power we give to the Sukta-s is found in the hymns themselves. Thus, in one hymn, as per the Shākala Shākhā initiation that I received, Shri Agni is Supreme. In another, Shri Vishnu is revealed as Supreme. And, in another, the Vishve-Devah are Supreme. There is no need to rest one's case, since the history of Dharma, itself, shows that the pluralistic theological notions do and will flourish, are being refined, and continue to progress onwards, even though many will have different and competing evaluations or conclusions in the end. Let us honor and acknowledge the paradigms that have concluded that there is only One Absolute, as well as acknowledge that there is/are paradigm(s) wherein the Shri Gods are not constricted to notions of there being an Absolute.
    Last edited by Sudas Paijavana; 21 January 2014 at 03:40 PM.

  3. #13

    Re: Single Householder

    Namaste,

    Believer ji, in response to your comment:
    I am sure you know what works for you and what does not regarding taking the 'little guy' along to the mandir. But, here is a suggestion, if a mandir is close by, you could sometime take him there during 'off hours' when there is no puja being conducted and the place is open for him to run around and there is no disruption to anyone. You might be amazed at what kind of calming effect him being in the presence of deities might have on him. And the uniqueness of the atmosphere starts to become second nature at an early age. Just a thought! Additionally, playing aarti on youtube on your computer ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiWSM5Klcqo ) at home and trying to have some 'sit down' moments with him might help.
    I think this is a fantastic idea, and think I will do this. I think he would love it, and I would like to explore it with him in a way that I don't have to worry about disturbing anyone or anything.

    As for the ensuing discussion on the nature of the gods and one supreme vs. many, I'm a lot newer to Sanatana Dharma than the two of you, so I can't comment on the intellectual debate. Personally I guess I had always thought of it as there being one ultimate god, and the other gods just being different facets and different ways to relate to that one God. But the other side that Sudas has brought up sounds like a valid interpretation in my humble opinion. I had never thought of it that way, and it definitely gives me something to think about!

    Despite all of that, I still think it is a good idea to teach my son about all of the different gods. I also talk to him about God, as well as the gods. I don't know how much of it he grasps though, and I think he is able to understand learning about the different dieties, in a more concrete way through pictures and books, more so than the abstract ultimate supreme being that encompasses all. Maybe when he is a little older we'll get into the more philosophical aspects of it!

    Thank you so much everyone for the feedback and enlightening conversation!
    Om Namah Shivaya

  4. #14
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    Re: Single Householder

    Quote Originally Posted by fem_phoenix1109 View Post
    Namaste,

    Believer ji, in response to your comment:

    I think this is a fantastic idea, and think I will do this. I think he would love it, and I would like to explore it with him in a way that I don't have to worry about disturbing anyone or anything.
    Vannakkam: At the temple I attend regularly, a little guy turned 3 just last week, on Thai Pongal day. He comes about 3 times a week on weekdays with his Mom. I get a high five from him, and the priests have taken a real liking to him.

    One day when he first started coming, he prostrated full out in front of a shrine, but in the wrong direction. Mom just reached down and gave him a spin.

    Believer's suggestion works. ... provided your temple is one that is open daily.

    Aum Namasivaya

  5. #15
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    Re: Single Householder

    There were three very small and energetic boys at the Temple I visited yesterday. They ran around a bit, everyone tried to help corral them a bit. They interacted with eachother nicely and were not at all loud. Just full of energy and smiles. It was wonderful to have their energy there.

    Watching them learn to take haldi and vibhuti tilakas, and smile and wave up to Nataraja and Sri Rudra made me grin. And as EMji saw, one of them at temple yesterday fully prostrated all on his own impulse at one point too.

    They were so sweet. I understand wanting to explore at a quiet time, and that's good. But I too think it will turn out fine and it's worth doing. People will love to meet your little one.
    ~~~~~
    What has Learning profited a man, if it has not led him to worship the good feet of Him who is pure knowledge itself?
    They alone dispel the mind's distress, who take refuge at the feet of the incomparable one.
    ~~Tirukural 2, 7

    Anbe Sivamayam, Satyame Parasivam

  6. #16
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    Re: Single Householder

    Namaste, Fem Phoenix.

    Regarding the householder vs. renunciate roles, I've also been questioning this. Maybe there is some of each in all of us?

    And taking your son to the temple sounds like a great idea! I can't help but smile at the thought. It's always a happy experience to see families at my local temple. And some of the kids are just footloose rascals... Like I was. People understand.

    "Be the change you wish to see in other people." ~Gandhi

  7. #17
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    Re: Single Householder

    Namaste FP,

    It all depends upon 'Goal'. More stronger the goal of moksha is, more you will adopt vairAgya. vairAgya is absence of thoughts (of material nature). It does not mean that one has to physically renounce an object or person, though sanyAsins do that. For householders it is not possible.

    Answers depends upon many factors like your mental make-up, goal of life, craving for desires, current mental status, circumstances that you are in, etc.

    The first attempt is to stabilze the boat and then we can think of aligning itself with the wind

    So, if you have not much craving, then all those explanations showing importance of other half are not applicable to you.

    Let me give you an e.g to make things clear.

    It is said that one should cook food yourself with vedic chanting. Also it is said that one has to eat food of sattvika nature as type of food influence mind.

    But these rules are not applicable to a wandering monk. He will simply knock any door ask for alms. He is not sure what he will get, how the food is cooked, is the donor a believer of God or is the donor earning in a fair way. It is also possible that a person may have added egg or fish liver oil in food and you never know. In this case what can a sanyAsin do? He simply accepts the food, prays to God, surrenders to God and takes it as a prasad. A sanyasin has such a faith that any kind of food he eats transforms into sattvik. If it does not transform into sattvik, still, by grace of God, he is able to transcend or say overcome the ill effects of improper food.

    What is more important is progress. So I always ask - If this going to help me in my spiritual progress? IF the answer is yes, then go ahead, if No then leave it there itself.

    As EM ji has said, try to do the best you can. Take care of your son / daughter an yourself. Try ot stay with God as much as possible by

    reading shastras
    listening to devotional songs
    chanting his name (japa)
    always wising to go near him, bow and fell at his feet.
    and always pray to God to show you correct path and give what is best for 'me' as Arjun in Gita has said.

    Rest will happen according to divine plan. Life is a happening.

    Hari OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  8. #18

    Re: Single Householder

    Quote Originally Posted by fem_phoenix1109 View Post
    Namaste,

    I've been reading a lot about the traditional paths of the householder vs. the renunciate, but I wonder, what about for those of us who do not fit into either?

    I am a single parent, and I have chosen to not engage in romantic relationships for the time being.

    A lot of what I've been reading lately discusses the householder dharma of having a family and raising children, and how the energies of the parents must be balanced in order to nurture children. What about when there is only one parent around? Is there a way to make my household whole without that other half?

    Thank you for your insight.
    Namaste Phoenix,

    My personal view on this:

    Lets first put things in perspective. There are a lot of renunciates on this forum and they love to see more people join their organizations. So you are very welcome and they want to make you and your child feel welcome to visit their temple hoping that you may follow their path.

    But such a step does demand a lot of consideration. Choosing the life of a renunciate is not one of convenience but a true calling. It is like going into a monastery. One is rejecting life's pleasures for a sober life of long hours of hard work in the hope of moksha. People that choose this life of hardship are exceptional in every way. To say goodbye to the world and sacrifice all that is dear to you for the sake of ending the life cycles, needs both determination and desperation. The kind of determination and desperation that the perfect warrior Arjuna shows in the Gita. It is very much a path of the spiritual warrior. The warrior is not afraid to enter the battle and lose his life for a higher ideal. The spiritual warrior is even more brave and is throwing away all his lives, he looking in the abyss of his final self-destruction. He made the decision he does not want to live ever again. One has to be born with this burning desire to succeed.

    One should be realistic about the chances of reaching moksha. Those are very slim. Prabhupada for instance said that only some people in the third generation will reach moksha, so maybe your child's child. Most others will strand along the road. One should be aware of the gravity of this heroic path. If in India there are millions of true Sannyasins this is still less 1% of the population. So joining an organization like this, is a bit like enlisting in the army. Before you do that, you should not only investigate ones deep desire for servitude and heroism but also the horrors of war and possible death struggle that are awaiting.

    Another thing that one should take into consideration is that entering this path freely and with full consciousness is something else than dragging a child into it. The child will receive a rigorous training to become a sannyasin too. But is this also the child's calling? Are you allowed to take such a life-changing decision for your child? Because this is only one of many paths and a path should match ones personal nature too, not just ones role. It may not be easy for a child to change his path later if he has grown up in such a close community with such strong ideas. And a mother is not raising a child for a life of hardship and suffering, how noble it may be in the eyes of men,

    As I see it, by taking responsibility for a child, you have already embarked on a different path that is not inferior to that of a renunciate. I even place this path higher. For the renunciate seeking moksha is ultimately still driven by egotism. It is all about him wanting to end his suffering, it is all about him seeking a way out to envisioned eternal happiness. It is the path of the warrior and though warriors give their lives for ideals, they are also egotists seeking heroism and gain, even if the gain is not earthly.

    A woman raising a child however is utterly altruistic. There is nothing a mother would not do for the happiness of her child, she would readily give her life for her child. Very few renunciates or men in general can match this act of Love by the unselfish surrender the mother does. The love of a father pales with the love of a mother. We owe our eternal gratitude to motherhood.

    Sage Parshuram teaches about the mother: The right of the Sage is ten times that of a teacher, a fathers right is a hundred times that of a Sage. A mothers right is a thousand times that of the father. Why? Because a son can be a bad son, but a mother can never be a bad mother. A mother is like mother Earth and mother Earth will never betray her own offspring. Without motherhood this world would not exist.

    You may also want to understand that though renunciates see this world as bad, as they suffer and it keeps them away from merging with their God, this does not mean that Hinduism in general holds this idea. Far from it. There is no religion that cherished life so much as Hinduism. There is no religion that worships Motherhood so abundantly for bringing us in this world.

    It may also be remarked that seeking moksha through renunciation is not the only path to moksha. One can also find moksha through total love, by embracing the world, by seeing Brahman in every aspect of it. Hinduism offers a lot of paths and one should investigate which path fits ones deeper nature. Women in general are rather bhakts than jnanas. The path of the (spiritual) warrior is typically a male path. Men easily embrace ideas, ideals. Women embrace their children with all their love. Women are emotionally attached to this world through their children and rather seek liberation through devotion.

    As a mother you already chose the path of the householder. As Lord Brihaspati teaches: If you decide to act, continue to act till its completion, otherwise this act will be your end. So your duty is clear, care for your child in the best and most loving way you can. Religion can be a big support in this. If you connect to a Devi or Deva and worship them sincerely they will support you and give you the wisdom and strength you need. Religion can be a tremendous support.

    At some point in time you may want or not want to form a new relationship. And surely it is nice if this someone also shares your values, your religion, even your particular brand of Hinduism. In India one would likely marry within ones own community. In the west this is less likely. It need not be a problem if one respects each other. Hindus respect the choices other people make but also demand the same respect for their choices. Your duty is to create a loving environment in which a child can grow to be a loving, strong, happy being that also knows his duties.

    Lets not turn religion in being part of an army, because men think this way. We are all free individuals making our own choices and we should have freedom taken away by men who declare we are in cosmic battle, because they believe in these ideas. A higher consciousness is not found in blind obedience, that is mindlessness. Love will guide us more true and a mothers love is the highest.

    What ever the choices you make is yours to call and all should respect it. I wish you prosperity, good luck, and love.
    Last edited by Avyaydya; 29 January 2014 at 07:01 PM.

  9. #19

    Re: Single Householder

    Namaste Avyaydya and Amrut, and thank you both for the well thought out posts.

    If I am completely honest with myself, I have to say that I am not ready to completely devote myself to trying to obtain moksha in this lifetime, or maybe not in any lifetime soon. I know that to be the ultimate goal, but I don't think I am near that goal at all in this phase of my journey. I just want to develop a deeper relationship with god and experience the divine in this life, to understand what lies beneath the surface, and to see where this path leads me. I believe I have been here for many lifetimes, but I also believe that I will be here for many many more, and that is okay with me.

    I think I got hung up in trying to define my path, and wondering if it fit into others' ideals of the path, and in doing so missed the path altogether. I am happy loving my family, and loving myself, and developing a relationship with Lord Shiva and learning to recognize and follow the divine when it presents itself. It doesn't have to be the 'traditional' householder path, nor does it have to be a renunciate's path. It's my path, and I can't define it using criteria that I have read in a book. All I can do is follow it to the best of my ability.

    Aum Namah Shivaya.
    Om Namah Shivaya

  10. #20
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    Re: Single Householder

    Quote Originally Posted by fem_phoenix1109 View Post

    I think I got hung up in trying to define my path, and wondering if it fit into others' ideals of the path, and in doing so missed the path altogether. I am happy loving my family, and loving myself, and developing a relationship with Lord Shiva and learning to recognize and follow the divine when it presents itself. It doesn't have to be the 'traditional' householder path, nor does it have to be a renunciate's path. It's my path, and I can't define it using criteria that I have read in a book. All I can do is follow it to the best of my ability.

    Aum Namah Shivaya.
    Namaste FP,

    Please continue to practice what you are doing. spiritual progress can be done with or without wife.

    Hari OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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