Namaste Ardhanari,Originally Posted by ardhanari
Please reconsider your use of the term demi-god.
Avadhuta
Re: ISKCON vs. "Mainstream" Hinduism
Namaste Ardhanari,
Please reconsider your use of the term demi-god.
Haribol, prabhuji!
I technically live in Surrey, which is a larger city near Vancouver (although the area in general and the surrounding cities are called Greater Vancouver), but it is an interesting place to live, lol.
Vancouver gets a lot of rain. Even in December, we get a lot of rain. Actually, I believe that Canada has the most water resources in the world, and it is a great pity that we use so much more water and electricity than the Americans, lol.
The ISKCONites here are actually quite nice, although some a little rough on the edges at a first glance. If you come here, I would be glad to be of any assistance whatsoever for you and your son.To act like gorillas and knock down bookshelves is not Vaishnava behaviour, and although Lord Chaitanya was certainly in ecstasy for His love of Krishna, He always checked Himself before other people who may not understand His deep attraction to Krishna and chanting His Holy Names.
It is one thing to desire for Chaitanya's mercy and blessings, but we must never imitate. Srila Prabhupada and the gurus of our lineage taught this. Especially when Lord Chaitanya is considered Radha-Krishna incarnated, imitation is most offensive, because our level of love of God is not to such a level.
Anyways, try not to get ISKCON ruin your experience with Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Vaishnavism is a religion/denomination of peace and love of God. Ever since I discovered that there were other organisations that preached Gaudiya philosophy but had a different flavour, a mellower one, I was instantly elated.
Oh, and sarabhanga, forgive me for the usage of 'demigod.' It is an ISKCON word, and in the translation of Srila Sridhar Maharaj's Gita, 'deva' is translated sometimes as 'god' and sometimes as 'demigod' (the understanding does not change, although the word may change). 'Demigod' is just easier to use to explain the subservience of the other gods to Vishnu/Krishna in a Vaishnava context.
devotee, I assure you, Gaudiya Vaishnavas read the Gita as it is, without allegorical or strongly metaphorical leanings. For example, we do not see the gods as differing facets of the Supreme Person (which is quite adwaitic), but as angels who minister and are servants of God. They are certainly worshippable (especially when one knows that Krishna eventually receives them all), but all prayers and sacrifices ultimately come to Krishna.
Although I do not agree on gang-on preaching. I find that a little offensive, since I believe that teaching something should come personally, not in a group against one person.
Bhagavad Gita 9:23-24
Srila Prabhupada: "Whatever a man may sacrifice to other gods, O son of Kunti, is really meant for Me alone, but it is offered without true understanding. For I am the only enjoyer and the only object of sacrifice. They fall down who do not recognize my true transcendental nature."
Srila Sridhar Maharaj: "O Kaunteya, the devotees of the demigods who have faith in worshipping them, are actually worshipping Me, but incorrectly. I alone am the enjoyer and rewarder of all sacrifices, but being ignorant of My position, the demigod worshippers fall to take birth again."
Tripurari Swami: "Even those who worship other gods with faith also worship only me, O son of Kunti, although they do so improperly. For I am the enjoyer and master of all sacrifices, but not knowing me in truth, they fall down."
Hare Krishna!
ardhanari.
Yog Kriya
Hare Krsna Ardhanari!
Yes Lord Shiva in the category of "Demi-Gods / "Servants" is not correct. Even though it may be a Vaishnava philosophy. Shiva as a mere "Demi-Semi-God" is not acceptable. Krishna worshipped Shiva after seeking Maha Pashupat Diksha and becoming a staunch Shaiva standing on one leg for months without food or water! Lord Rama also accepted Virja Diksha from the great agastya Rishi and worshipped Lord Shiva on many instances. So did Sita mata. So did Kunti, Gandharai, Arjuna, Vashishtha, the Gopis, Nand Maharaj... the list is endless. So when Srila Prabhupada talks lightly of Lord Shiva dev-adidev Mahadev as a mere "Demi"-God, it is offensive and non acceptable.
Regards,
Namah Shivaya!
YogKriya.
Radhe Shyam, YogaKriya!
Yes, in our theology Lord Shiva is the greatest servant and devotee to Lord Vishnu/Krishna, especially since in our Scriptures (Bhagavad Gita and Bhagavata Purana) that Krishna/Vishnu is the Supreme Lord of all creation. In our matha (Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math), at our temples you will see that they always do a puja for Shiva before rendering seva to Lord Krishna. This is because we see Lord Shiva also as the gatekeeper of Vaikunthaloka. We have the greatest respect for Lord Shiva, I assure you.
Member
Namaste Ardhanari,
our scripture? Oh, I see. Did your preceptor create original scripture or just wrote misleading purports?
Since there cannot be any creation but in Maya (i.e. creation is only possible by primeval indivisible ONE ATMAN cutting itself to pieces and call the biggest piece as the Lord), the Supreme Lord that you imagine is surely so.
The whole of ISKCON philosophy is divisive, and being built on lies and wrong purports, it will flourish (like Asuras do) and vanish.
Om
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
Yog Kriya
Jai Shri Krishna Ardhnari,
ALL glories to Lord Ardhnarishwara - Lord Shiva!
In Shaiva and other Vedic scriptures, Shiva is not considered as and has never been given a mere "Gatekeeper" designation. And there is certainly no one at all who can designate this position to Lord Shiva. No Prabhupada, or Bhaktisiddhanta or Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Gaudiyas have given a one of the dwarpal positions to Shiva. If that was not Lord Shiva's original position, how can someone in Kaliyuga change it? And who has the power to change the position of one in whom the whole universe disappears? To change Shri Mahadev's position and make him a mere "Gatekeeper" is nothing short of arrogance!! Its a different matter that Lord Shiva may have given his protection to Vaikuntha or Vrindavana.. etc. There are gazillions of souls in the universe under his protection. Our very existence is protected by Him. So do I call him my personal bodyguard? Do you see my point?
Of course I've heard that Iskcon and Gaudiyas respect Lord Shiva as a servant/devotee of Krsna. They also call him in the "mode of ignorance representing tamo guna".
There are double standards and hypocrisy in Gaudiya philosophies on every step. Nobody worships Lord Shiva as such in Gaudiya Vaishnavism, whereas the policy says - be the servant of the servant of the servant... as laid down by Shri Chaitanya. Yet even if we consider Lord Shiva to be a devotee of Krsna, why is he not on the Gaudiya altar??
On the contrary, as per my talk with senior Prabhupada disciples, its a "blasphemy" to put Shiva at the same level as Krsna on the altar!!! so they put him at the gates! Stand at the gates not inside. What can be more shocking than this?? Knowing that Krsna prostrated before Shiva and made dandvats to him and worshipped Shiva for long periods of time going through rigorous austerities! To this the Gaudiyas keep mum!!! They have no answers to it.
You belong to Chaitanya Saraswat Math, then there is the gaudiya math, iskcon and so on. If everyone is following the same philosophy of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, why there are so many divisions and maths and separate branches sprouting out from it?? Where some believe in some aspects and other don't? There is separation of philosophy and beliefs and purports! And each separately formed math and organization tries to re-translate its own books n put its own purports, to do something different and is not friendly to each other. Iskcon and Gaudiya math are not too friendly to each other either. They have internal jealousies too. Over what? Power, fame, money and real estates? This is Maya!! So who is mayavadi? This is another double standard. The whole philosophy, purports and translations and organizational policies have double standards sadly. Gaudiyas don't accept any other scriptures accept their particular translated ones with own purports to original scriptures and there are many differences between original scriptures and Gaudiya colored scriptures. Padma Purana is quoted here or there, but Shiva Gita part of Padma Purana is rejected altogether!! You call yourself "Vedic culture" but you don't read the Vedas or Upanishads, except for a few with self made interpretations. Bhagvad Gita is accept and many things in Mahabharat rejected. Even though the same Krishna is the speaker of them. And so forth.. You preach that Bhakti is superior than scriptural discussions and explanations. But still you go around debating people quoting shloka numbers n purports. So there is double standard in everything. And then the divisive God positioning agenda which is huge! Hare Krsna devotee is a devotee and is considered so so exalted, whereas a Shaiva or other devotee is not even a devotee but just someone in the category of 'mayavadi', impersonalist, etc. n one who is not into religious scriptural bashing is a 'karmi'! Now this karmi thing is a lowcast in Hare Krsna definition too.
I feel that the Gaudiyas haven't understood Krishna properly. How can they understand His consciousness? I think it should be Krishna bhakti organization or Conscious of Krishna organization.
I hope i didn't offend anyone. But this is what it is.
Regards,
Namah Shivaya!
Self Seeker
Namaste Ardhanari,
As you are new to Hindu religion, I don't find fault with you. However, let me clarify that Shiva enjoys no less position in Hindu tradition than Vishnu. Don't get misguided by what anybody tells you about who is greater than the other.
This problem is sure to arise in duality. But the solution is given in Bhagwat Gita itself. Please read Gita verses, chapter-10 where Lord Krishna declares that He is Shankar (Shiva) among the 11 Rudras. In fact, if you read original version of Bhagwat Gita, you find strong indication towards Non-duality. If you are not able to see the Non-duality message in Bhagwat Gita loud & clear, I can only say that you need to read it again & again. Bhagwat Gita is a matchless book which gives clear insights into Bhakti-yoga ( Duality), Jnan Yoga ( Path of Knowledge, Non-duality) & Karma-yoga ( The path of action) all in one place. However, at some places, it becomes too obscure due to nature of the complexity involved .... there you need guidance of the Vedanta or a Jnani ( an enlightened being).
The Hinduism is the mother crucible where all experiments on spirituality has been done ... there is no path which has not been tried to its ultimate logical end. .... and it has been proved by many enlightened people in the past that all the paths lead to the same reality. If you tread on these paths of duality only to some extent you will find vast differences & you will be left utterly confused. The culmination of all these paths is finally to Non-duality. That is what you should know ... that is what each one of us has to know ... that is where we all have to reach. That is final knowledge ... there is nothing left to know after that ....
May Lord Krishna bless you with the True Knowledge !
Regards
"Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"
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