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Thread: ISKCON vs. "Mainstream" Hinduism

  1. #11
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    Re: ISKCON vs. "Mainstream" Hinduism

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaos View Post
    Namaste,

    Are ISKCON's extremists??? Um, compared to certain sects, of which, I will not mention, I would say, no, not at all...
    They seem so to me. For a start, they require a strict vegetarian diet, which also forbids eggs, onions and garlic. My girlfriend's family are Hindus, and they aren't vegetarian most of the time(they are now, because their uncle died and they have to be vegetarian for 16 days). I've heard of many Hindus being vegetarian, but what's with the onions and garlic?

    Secondly, ISKCON requires their devotees to chant 16 rounds of japa meditation of the Hare Krishna mantra each day. While Lord Caitanya encouraged chanting, he never specified the exact amount that must be done each day. This is a bit extreme for working people. ISKCON also discourages its followers from accumulating wealth.

    Thirdly, and this is the most extreme thing I have come across, ISKCON prohibits sexual relations between a husband and wife except for procreation on one night a month, after chanting the mantra for a few hours. Sex for pleasure or growing closer to your spouse is forbidden.

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    Re: ISKCON vs. "Mainstream" Hinduism

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottMalaysia View Post
    They seem so to me. For a start, they require a strict vegetarian diet, which also forbids eggs, onions and garlic. My girlfriend's family are Hindus, and they aren't vegetarian most of the time(they are now, because their uncle died and they have to be vegetarian for 16 days). I've heard of many Hindus being vegetarian, but what's with the onions and garlic?

    Secondly, ISKCON requires their devotees to chant 16 rounds of japa meditation of the Hare Krishna mantra each day. While Lord Caitanya encouraged chanting, he never specified the exact amount that must be done each day. This is a bit extreme for working people. ISKCON also discourages its followers from accumulating wealth.

    Thirdly, and this is the most extreme thing I have come across, ISKCON prohibits sexual relations between a husband and wife except for procreation on one night a month, after chanting the mantra for a few hours. Sex for pleasure or growing closer to your spouse is forbidden.
    Namaste SM (ScottMalaysia)
    IMHO opinion a few points offered does not sound extreme to me, again my eyes and my experiences.

    Veggie diet - onions and garlic in many circles are considered rajasic and some say tamasic in nature. Too over stimulating or dulling depending how you look at it. Yet the the onion and garlic thing is not veggie related but has to do with a certain school, belief or philosophy one may be following. Some do not eat mushrooms and turnips also. So whats the deal? It boils down to the following:
    Sattvic foods are thought to contribute to making a person serene, enlightened, healthy, and long-lived.. Sattvic foods include rice, wheat, ghee, most legumes, some other vegetables, milk and milk products (except cheeses made from rennet). Rennet comes from the stomach of animals.
    Rajasic foods are believed to contribute to a person becoming aggressive, greedy, passionate and desiring of power. Warriors were encouraged to eat these foods. Rajasic foods are some meats, eggs, and foods that are very bitter, sour, salty, rich and/or spicy.
    Tamasic foods when used for pleasure and in excess can contribute to lust, malice, confusion, slothfulness, and dullness. These foods are garlic, pickled, preserved, stale, or rotten foods and alcohol or drugs.

    Eggs is the beginning of life, so one avoids eggs as a veggie.

    Chanting 16 rounds - I cannot say if it is or is not excessive - I would ask what is the final result? How does the ISKCON sadhu act afterwords? Uplifting, closer to his Lord, etc? if this is the case 16 rounds may be the magic number for this to occur. The sadhu should graviate to this naturally as a joy to do ... if it is drudgery as if one has to do this a chore, then it needs to be reconsidered.

    Regarding "discourages its followers from accumulating wealth" - I can see the logic here. Yet for me I do not see this making the person extreme of a zealot... I think of the sannyasin as an example - is it for every one? nope. Is this what the ISKCON group is trying to produce? I am not sure.

    Sex for pleasure vs. procreation. My thought on this is , its the choice of the people involved.

    So what is 'extreme' or over-zealous (for me)? I think of those sects that induce pain ( physical or mental) on themselves - this can be in our outside Sanatana Dharma. The logic of 'I am not this body' makes sense, yet self-abuse to me is not conducive to spiritual unfoldment why? Your attention is on the pain, or pain avoidance, or time taping and bandaging oneself after the self-conflagration occurs!. Actions that are extreme, and over-doing it from that standpoint ( hot coal walking, barbs into the skin, etc etc).

    So where does one turn to say what is balanced or not? I would look to the Bhagavad Gita, Chapt 6.17-18, Krsna says the following:
    Yoga indeed is not for him who eats too much nor for him who does not eat at all, O Arjuna; it is not for him who is too much given to sleep not yet for him who keeps awake.

    For him who is moderate in food and recreation, moderate of effort of actions, moderate in sleep and waking, for him is the Yoga which destroys sorrow.


    ...just some thoughts.




    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 05 December 2007 at 05:36 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: ISKCON vs. "Mainstream" Hinduism

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottMalaysia View Post
    They seem so to me. For a start, they require a strict vegetarian diet, which also forbids eggs, onions and garlic. My girlfriend's family are Hindus, and they aren't vegetarian most of the time(they are now, because their uncle died and they have to be vegetarian for 16 days). I've heard of many Hindus being vegetarian, but what's with the onions and garlic?

    Secondly, ISKCON requires their devotees to chant 16 rounds of japa meditation of the Hare Krishna mantra each day. While Lord Caitanya encouraged chanting, he never specified the exact amount that must be done each day. This is a bit extreme for working people. ISKCON also discourages its followers from accumulating wealth.

    Thirdly, and this is the most extreme thing I have come across, ISKCON prohibits sexual relations between a husband and wife except for procreation on one night a month, after chanting the mantra for a few hours. Sex for pleasure or growing closer to your spouse is forbidden.

    Some sects in Hinduism practice extreme casteism and there are stories of funeral rights being performed for 2 Brahmana girls who married 2 Harijans.

  4. #14

    Re: ISKCON vs. "Mainstream" Hinduism

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottMalaysia View Post

    ISKCON requires their devotees to chant 16 rounds of japa meditation of the Hare Krishna mantra each day. While Lord Caitanya encouraged chanting, he never specified the exact amount that must be done each day. This is a bit extreme for working people. ISKCON also discourages its followers from accumulating wealth.

    Namaste,

    I think, this can be approached from one's angle of vision.

    How much time do you spend working? How much time do you spend accumulating wealth? How much time do you spend sleeping? Or even, how much time do you spend watching t.v., or reading the news?
    How much time do you spend socializing or surfing the Internet?

    Perhaps, to the ISKON devotee, the above examples are relatively "extreme" as opposed to the amount of time spent performing japa.

    There are more "extreme" activities that people engage into. I don't think performing 16 rounds of chanting is extreme enough.
    Om purnam adah, purnam idam, purnat purnam udacyate; purnasya purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate.
    Om Santih! Santih! Santih!

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    Re: ISKCON vs. "Mainstream" Hinduism

    Hare Krishna!

    Kaos, 16 rounds of Hare Krishna mantra japa is not extreme enough? I did hear of a story with Srila Prabhupada who originally wished for his followers to do 64 rounds... until his disciples kept complaining and 16 was the final result, lol. I do literally believe though that even mentioning the name of Krishna once with faith will alleviate one's sins, and japa is a mere discipline to clear one's consciousness. I think that even one round is sufficient each day, although I personally do 16 rounds minimum, 20 rounds maximum. I find that sankirtan is much more important, and the Names are clearly sung.

    I do give them a break though, because originally Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu began his sect as a sannyasi one; only in this age where one needs to take into account householders, grhasthas who need the money to maintain families.


    Studying the Pushtimargiya Sampradaya, I find that Pushtimarg a little more extreme in their religion socially. Traditionally, pushtimargis and those initiated into their sampradaya must do seva to Sri Thakur ji eight times a day with specific acts (purifying the salt, for example). They also believe that only those within the sampradaya are assured of salvation, and mixing with even other non-Pushtimargiya Vaishnavites is spiritually polluting.

    I find it odd that I am attracted to Pushtimarg, the Path of Grace, despite its seemingly public exclusivism. If only Gaudiya Vaishnavites and Pushtimargis weren't so exclusive to each other, and I could combine the two and lessen the whole non-association with other Vaishnavites (Pushtimargis), mayavadis and impersonalists (these two ISKCON says one should avoid), I would think that such would be a perfect religion, lol.


    What I do find extreme in ISKCON is the great literalism they have with the Pastimes of Lord Krishna, wearing a sari or dhoti and kurta are the most appropriate ways for the layperson to 'feel' more like a Vaishnavite, the inauspiciousness of the left hand, pointing finger and pinky, and its continuing push to bring others to their perception of philosophy. Even the other Gaudiya Vaishnavite groups, mathas, organisations, etc. seem less scary and more open to individuals than ISKCON. I really don't believe that eating meat will make one go to a hellish condition like the ISKCONites believe. I also have a hard time with its strict segregation of the sexes, but it is not too bad anymore... I am still trying to get used to boys' and men's machismo attitudes and their 'buddy-buddy' behaviours, lol.

    But I think, despite organisational problems and the political problems with ISKCON and other Gaudiya Vaishnavite organisations, it does well in presenting a standard form of Gaudiya Vaishnavism for the West. But having studied Gaudiya Vaishnavism from ISKCON's side, it is not too extreme as other people argue. They are just continuing their sampradaya and orthodoxy.

    But even with these beliefs, I do my 16 round japa, I wear tilak time to time, I do sankirtan on Sundays, and try to do puja at least once a day. It is just too beautiful a tradition to just associate the whole of it to ISKCON only.

    ~ Ardhanari

  6. #16

    Re: ISKCON vs. "Mainstream" Hinduism

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottMalaysia View Post

    Secondly, ISKCON requires their devotees to chant 16 rounds of japa meditation of the Hare Krishna mantra each day. While Lord Caitanya encouraged chanting, he never specified the exact amount that must be done each day. This is a bit extreme for working people. ISKCON also discourages its followers from accumulating wealth.

    Namaste,

    Yes, you're views are quite understandable. But please remember that for the devotee, chanting the Hare Krishna mantra is part of bhakti."Bhakti" is devotional service, is transcendental dharma, it is not material dharma." , therefore, it has less to do with the accumulation of wealth.

    Perhaps, if someone who is "mainstream" wants to seriously try to attempt to accumulate wealth, maybe he/she would be better off spending time getting into the stock market, rather than spend time on spiritual stuff.


    Also, for the devotee, bhakti, or devotional service is natural. Just like the love of a father to his son. The love is already there. It is natural, it cannot be extinguished, even if father and son are separated after so many years. Devotees, are by nature lovers of Krishna. Therefore, what is extreme about something as natural as bhakti, or devotional service?
    Last edited by Kaos; 08 December 2007 at 12:43 PM.
    Om purnam adah, purnam idam, purnat purnam udacyate; purnasya purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate.
    Om Santih! Santih! Santih!

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    Re: ISKCON vs. "Mainstream" Hinduism

    When you sleep then there is no world. You feel nothing. In deep sleep there is no ego, no thoughts, nothing is present. Although there may be Krishna Loka, or Vaikunta, these are not the Highest state or world. When there is complete dissolution of thought, then there comes realization of the true nature, The realization that we are formless Atman, that which is Bliss and Existence itself.

    Why are you wandering from one religion to other like that? Do you like their doctrines and Dogmas? Doctrines and Dogmas give nothing, they never lead to Spirituality. If there is a God, then he is beyond Doctrines and Dogmas.

    I am an Hindu, Idols are just a focus point of concentration. You concentrate on the Idols with faith, believing them to be God...

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    Re: ISKCON vs. "Mainstream" Hinduism

    carlosox,
    Haribol!

    I am not an ISKCON devotee, but I consider myself part of the Gaudiya Vaishnava fold through Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math, which is part of the Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya sampradaya of Vaishnavism.

    ISKCON is probably a little more fundamentalist and preachy then other Gaudiya Vaishnavites, but they are not 'all out and out fanatics' like you claim. Mind you, their translation of the Bhagavad Gita is called "As It Is" because almost all Gaudiya Vaishnavites see the Gita and do not try to find too esoteric of meanings in the text, but read it via plain reading.

    I disliked Paramahamsa Yogananda's translations because he pretty much tried to push the entire Gita into the scope of Kriya yoga, something I strongly disagree about. But then again, all translations of the Gita are coloured.

    If you are interested in a nice translation with a few commentaries here and there on the edge of bhakti yoga, I recommend Srila Sridhar Maharaj's "Srimad Bhagavad-Gita: The Hidden Treasure of the Sweet Absolute" (http://vaisnava.com/bookstore/sbrsm_hiddentreasure.html) You should check out the centres in Malaysia! http://scsmath.com/centers.html#asia

    Gaudiya Vaishnavism is a beautiful path to God, and probably the least strict of the main sampradayas of Vaishnavism anyways.

    Bhargavsai, I am also a Hindu because I believe in Vaishnavism, but we do not believe in Advaita Vedanta. We do believe that we are qualitatively the same as God, but we are not God Himself. We are eternal servitors of Krishna, and by purification of our consciousness and transforming our material consciousness into God consciousness, we realise ourselves to be servants of Lord Krishna in Krishnaloka.

    Krishna is beyond dogmas, doctrines and religions. Krishna is all, in all, and loves all. Don't forget what He says in Bhagavad Gita 18:65-66,

    "Think of Me always, devote yourself to Me, worship Me and bow to Me, and surely you will come to Me. I promise you this, because you are dear to Me.

    Give up all kinds of religion and surrender to Me alone. I will liberate you from all sins; do not despair.
    "


    There are five planes of experiences for the consciousness in Gaudiya Vaishnavism, as taught by Srila Sridhar Maharaj:

    1) Pratyaksha - We experience our consciousness via our senses. This is a limited form of consciousness because it is highly dependent on the material world to understand.

    2) Paroksha - This is the plane of experience when it comes from others. Now there is the beginning of dependency on a higher or external understanding other than our own senses.

    3) Aparoksha - This is the plane of experience when the consciousness becomes blinded by the material world and searches deep within the self.

    4) Adhokshaja - This is the plane of experience where the devotee lives in Vaikuntha, the abode of Krishna's luminescence, although ey does not know it at all. Ey is in supreme bliss and happiness, and has mentally created the material world into its pure shakti of Lord Krishna. There is no suffering, birth or death.

    5) Apraakrta - This is the supreme abode of Krishna, Goloka, where the key to entrance is shuddha-krishna-prema, or pure love of God. Through jnana-shunya-bhakti, or devotional service devoid of calculation, this plane is for pure devotees who, with a sanctified heart, say "I am but Thine. I am only for Thee. I only serve Thee, and I love Thee completely from the very depths of my soul." This is Vrindavana, where Vraja-lila is performed.

    As Gaudiya Vaishnavas, our true Home is with God, with Krishna in Vrindavana. We seek to remember ourselves and our original dispositions as servants and maidservants, chanting, dancing, laughing, and crying to His blissful Supremacy of Love and Joy. This is where we belong; this is our home, our home, sweet home.



    Forgive me for preaching, but Krishna is just wonderful to me. He makes me happy.

    Hare Krishna,
    ardhanari.

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    Re: ISKCON vs. "Mainstream" Hinduism

    Carolsox,
    Hare Krishna, prabhu!

    It is very unfortunate that you have had such negative an experience with ISKCON over there. Over here, the ISKCONites of Vancouver, although firm in their doctrine, are contrarily nice people. And of course, listening to the lecturers, I do warn you that some do have that certain shock factor... 'save people' 'hell' and other words that would most probably scare people, lol.

    But I hope that you do not brand ISKCON totally... I strongly suggest your son associate with the other Gaudiya organisations and see if he may like them better. I have no idea how old your son is though. Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math (presently headed by His Divine Grace Srila Govinda Maharaj but based on the Gaudiya teachings of Srila Sridhar Maharaj) emphasises, instead of the four regulative principles, on developing Humility, Tolerance, and Giving Service/Respect/Honour for others (the last one seems to differ variously).

    Here are some listings for Sri Chaitanya Math in Australia: http://scsmath.com/centers.html#southpacific

    Here is Sri Gaudiya Vedanta Society headed by Guru Srila Narayana Maharaj (although some followers sometimes overdo their love for their gurudeva):
    http://www.purebhakti.com/centers/index.shtml#AUSTRALIA

    That's all I could find in regards to Australia. Some of these gatherings are in homes with only a few people because ISKCON is more well-known. But hey, give it a try! There are fundamentalist Christians who push doctrine down people's throats, and there are Christians who practice tolerance and love. Not all Christians are the same, although most believe in the supremacy of Jesus Christ as God Incarnate.

    Same with Gaudiya Vaishnavas. Regardless of organisation, you will find Gaudiya devotees who are wonderful, peacekeeping people, and others who are quite firm and sometimes unknowingly impulsive. Yet they are all united in their regard for Krishna as Supreme God, and all others are incarnations (Vishnu, Rama, Maha-Vishnu, Buddha, Matsya, Nrsimhadeva, etc.) or demi-gods/servants (Indra, Agni, Varuna, Mitra, Ganesha, Shiva, Brahma, etc.) of God.

    Jaya Radhe,
    ardhanari.

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    Re: ISKCON vs. "Mainstream" Hinduism

    Namaste carlosox,

    Quote Originally Posted by carlosox View Post
    It seems that there was a person in Melbourne who was a great Rama devotee. The ISKON group there led by this monk went and convinced this person, after several days of preaching, that it is only Krishna that should be worshipped and not Rama. If that is not narrow mindedness, I don't know what is.
    That is not Hinduism. I pity those who get misguided by misguided "teachers". Where would the leader, who is blind himself, lead his group to ?

    I can only suggest you to read the scriptures yourself in original form, if possible. Even if Bhagwad Gita is understood well, there won't be any need for any further guidance.

    Regards.
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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