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Thread: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

  1. #11
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    Re: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

    Namaste Jopmala ji,

    Sorry for delayed response, I am busy and was involved with another thread.

    Until now, all I was trying to to project things in a positive way, so that we can progress spiritually, but it looks like to answer the questions and the seeming contradiction, I will have to talk the language of mAyAvAda eehhh actually, if someone wants to accuse, it should be mithyAvAda, as God's divine power, mAyA, is very important to Vaishnavas as Ishvara does his lilA through mAyA, hence I think that VAishnava-s philosophy couls be said as mAyAvAda, talks about Lord's glory and his lilA - don't mind ji. btw, Advaita is BrahmavAda, as it is Brahman that is final destination and not mAyA

    Actually, I had noted down response in points (about 22), but didn't knew how to convey properly.

    So, lets begin mAyAvAda, but first, lets talk about some considerations.

    Since HDF rule says that large amount of text is a spam, or in other words it is better to publish an article in Blog or website and point a link and then discuss it, I have shifted this article here

    btw, you may also visit adhyAropa apavAda

    We should also understand that even though we both may disagree with the logic presented, let the disagreement remain but let us not enter into 'refutation mood' , however, certain doubts can be cleared taking care that both of us will not go beyond a certain point.

    Hari OM
    Jai Shri Krishna
    Last edited by Amrut; 16 December 2013 at 12:35 AM. Reason: Split article into two parts, added article - Few words about illusion & Neo philosophy
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  2. #12
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    Re: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

    Namaste


    I am interested to know advaitic view of maya. Advaitavada is saying that there is Brahman only and nothing else. Before one proves that jiva is deluded by maya which is the power of brahman he has to prove that jiva exists . then again where does jiva exist in dream or in true jagat . if delusion also happens in dream then he must say in whom or where the dream is taking place . dream also needs a adhar to take place. According to me advaitic view should say that it is Brahman which is deluded by his own power maya and become jiva. As and when this maya leaves him, jiva gets back its own svarupa that is Brahman itself. On the one hand advaitic view says there is Brahman only and nothing else but on the other hand it starts with jiva being deluded by maya which is contradictory to me.

    On the one hand advaitic view says nirgun Brahman and his power maya a subject which is beyond thinking, beyond imagination , beyond understanding etc etc but I am surprised to see that everybody here is trying to think and define it by undergoing certain spiritual process that is nidhidyashana etc. This is also a contradiction.states of consciousness etc are all imaginery. So high thinking philosophy has been propagated on the subject which is not real but appears to be real that is Brahman appears as jiva and jagat but actually there is no jiva and jagat .Fact is that the real subject that is Brahman which is not thinkable definable or understandable. Therefore advaitic people are busy with a subject which is neither sat nor asat, not real but appears to be real, a dream, delusion, illusion. Is this "neti neti".

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    Re: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

    Quote Originally Posted by jopmala View Post
    Namaste


    I am interested to know advaitic view of maya. Advaitavada is saying that there is Brahman only and nothing else. Before one proves that jiva is deluded by maya which is the power of brahman he has to prove that jiva exists . then again where does jiva exist in dream or in true jagat . if delusion also happens in dream then he must say in whom or where the dream is taking place . dream also needs a adhar to take place. According to me advaitic view should say that it is Brahman which is deluded by his own power maya and become jiva. As and when this maya leaves him, jiva gets back its own svarupa that is Brahman itself. On the one hand advaitic view says there is Brahman only and nothing else but on the other hand it starts with jiva being deluded by maya which is contradictory to me.

    On the one hand advaitic view says nirgun Brahman and his power maya a subject which is beyond thinking, beyond imagination , beyond understanding etc etc but I am surprised to see that everybody here is trying to think and define it by undergoing certain spiritual process that is nidhidyashana etc. This is also a contradiction.states of consciousness etc are all imaginery. So high thinking philosophy has been propagated on the subject which is not real but appears to be real that is Brahman appears as jiva and jagat but actually there is no jiva and jagat .Fact is that the real subject that is Brahman which is not thinkable definable or understandable. Therefore advaitic people are busy with a subject which is neither sat nor asat, not real but appears to be real, a dream, delusion, illusion. Is this "neti neti".
    Namaste,

    Please read the above post again. It will answer all doubts. I think nothing needs to be separately answered.

    I have made few additions since posting.

    Aum
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality Amrut View Post
    Namaste,

    Please read the above post again. It will answer all doubts. I think nothing needs to be separately answered.

    I have made few additions since posting.

    Aum
    Namaste Amrutji

    I have posted without seeing your post. well , I am reading your post and coming back

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    Re: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

    Namaste Jopmala ji,

    No problem, please take your time.

    I also found creation theories on advaita-vedanta.org website here

    I hope this will help you answer your questions.

    The explanation given is simple. Still if possible, I will try to brief.

    Jai Shri Rama
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

    A quick note...

    This is just to correct the misinformation presented here assuming "MayaVada" as derogatory term but historically the philosophical school's are identified by the core of "the foundational" principle of the creation and sustenance and not the ultimate destination because, at least in principle all vedantic schools are believed to guide the practitioner to the very same goal.

    The creation and existence solely resting in Sunya - identified as SunyaVada - though they rejected the authority of Veda.
    The creation and existence solely resting on the Maya - identified as "MayaVada" and they do accept the authority of the Veda mostly - MayaVada is not exclusively meant only for "Shankara Advaita" but in general, this term popularly identified Advaita of Shankara school - There are other Advaita schools which does not attribute the creation and sustenance to Maya alone.
    In the same line, Vaishnava schools must be identified differently fitting to the cause of creation and sustenance but since all schools are identifiable by the three reals as fundamental truth instead of "One Brahman", they do not carry these label. TattvaVada, RasaVada, BrahmaParinma Vada etc. are some of the names identifying these schools.

    If they do not help to identify the proper school, it is fine to refer the actual school by most agreeable terms but surely, these are not deregatory and these are utilized not just by ISKCON but by the very acharyas belonging to the same sampradaya.

    So, for those where name and form is not important, whether a label is derogatory or not should be secondary but what it identifies should be of prime importance.

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    Re: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

    Hi.,

    sarvam hyetad brahmāyamātmā

    When everything is Brahman, from which stand point the adhyAropa happens? Such adhyAropa as the method of Shruti teaching invalidates the above picked verse (and everything described as well - as it states everything is Brahman and that must include your super imposition theory - if everything is Brahman, the Shruti is not just "teaching" but actually saying, it is product of Maya and avidya - The stand point of Shri Shankara which modern advistins are abusing and raping but still claiming that these kind of theories are Shankara advaita) as meaningless. Shri Shankara clearly states that, Avidya and Adyasa is/are anadi and building the philosophy of Advaita on top of these is the school of Shri Shankara - Introducing a counter contradicting theory of adyaRopa being any different from Adyasa should not be attributed to Shri Shankara. A more sincere and serious theological evaluation of Shri Shankara may show the path to the Reals!

    Shri Shankara is only asked to stand and provide authenticity but he is the one who strongly says, "ALL these are non-existent" and non-real" and not as something transiently real. (Such attribution to Shri Shankara is wrong and please state your school or version of advaita or at least start to have some way of identifying and agreeing this is your own idea - These are NEOs idea and at least acknowledge that).

    To reduce this complex confusion in one liner answer, the meaning of adhyAropa means the witness less Brahman is always "in" conscious and need not require anything else that is anyway never existing or non-existent to go through the negation of what is that has no space/substratum to happen.

    If the super imposition is not already existent, it cannot come in to existence to play or act! If such super imposition is just a teaching, there are no two to start the process of teaching since super imposition itself is not there on the Real Brahman but only in the teaching! Unless until, we admit that, such super imposition is actually on the vastu Brahman, there is no room for admitting this theory as Shri Shankara's in first place.

    Proving these as paradox is much simpler if these as mere teaching style and not actually a phenomena on the Real Brahman. If it is true, the Real Brahman is always the real Brahman as in clay - There is no Pot - The pot is in the teaching - to impart a knowledge - about whom? To the very Self same Brahman that is not super imposed at all - and about its very nature. What is not super imposed does not require a release in first place (ajatiVada meets its end here) - it is always in its constitutional state of release and sat chit ananda - why waste time teaching something picking whatever style to the one that is never super imposed or in any sort of illusion??? Remember, admitting that Brahman is super imposed will throw away this theory as ineligible to explain that super imposition which is the Shankara Advaita stand - and force you to move back to Shri Shankara's original idea of avidya as the real cause but anadi!

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    Re: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

    Namaste Amrut
    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality Amrut View Post
    I will have to talk the language of mAyAvAda eehhh actually, if someone wants to accuse, it should be mithyAvAda, as God's divine power, mAyA, is very important to Vaishnavas as Ishvara does his lilA through mAyA, hence I think that VAishnava-s philosophy couls be said as mAyAvAda, talks about Lord's glory and his lilA - don't mind ji. btw, Advaita is BrahmavAda, as it is Brahman that is final destination and not mAyA
    The reason why Vaishnavas call Advaita philosophy "Mayavada" is that Advaita philosophy says that Brahman can be overcome by maya and thus fall under the influence of illusion. According to Advaita every living being in this material world is this Brahman in maya. So Advaita is called mayavada or "Brahman under the influence of maya".
    Needless to say that Vaishnavas do not accept this view because according to the Vaishnavas Brahman can not fall under the influence of illusion. Vaishnava philosophy can not be called mayavada because according to the Vaishnavas Brahman can not fall under the influence of illusion.

    One more thing. Vaishnava understanding is that Ishvara or the Lord who is the Supreme Brahman (parabrahman) performs his pastimes (lilas) with the help of his own power called yogamaya which is His internal potency. This yogamaya power has nothing to do with the illusion in which there are all living beings in this material world.
    However there is one another potency of the Lord called just "maya" or sometimes "mahamaya". This is the power of the Lord by which He keeps all living beings in this material world in illusion about their true spiritual identity as the eternal spiritual souls. Because they are under the influence of this illusion all living beings think "we are this material body" and thus they think that their true identity is body and not the spiritual soul (atma or jivatma). This is their illusion.
    So it's not that the Lord falls under the influence of illusion, but He has his own potency (energy) called mahamaya which He uses to keep all the living beings in this material world in illusion! Thus illusion is not something separate or independent of the Lord, but it is His own power that He can use as He wants. When He wants to keep living beings in illusion about their true spiritual identity, He uses his mahamaya potency to overcome the living beings, and when He wants to liberate living beings from the illusion and material existence of repeated birth and death He gives them liberation (mukti) as an expression of His grace. We can even say that in this case He uses his yogamaya potency to award mukti to the jiva soul and thus this liberated soul (mukta) becomes a part of His pastimes (lilas) in His eternal abode of Vaikuntha.
    This is a Gaudiya vaishnava explanation of the terms mahamaya, yogamaya, illusion, liberation (mukti), and how they are related to jivas and the Lord, Vishnu.

    regards

  9. #19
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    Re: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

    Just a quick note.

    That mayavada and accusation was wrote on a light note. Actually My in reply, I had written words like - enjoying naa , so thats what mayavad says, etc.

    But when I shifted my article to my website, I had to remove that stuff

    I will reply to the answers. Please give me some time. I also request members to just take one issue at time a time.

    So Grames ji , it looks like you have developed an philia (affinity) for this mayavadi and you keep following me. See these days weird things are happening and efforts are made to legalize two males coming too close for comfort. I am not in favour of this.

    Also kindly note that I am a poor rational fellow. So I will present advaita according to my understanding. Now the logic is excellent, good, bad, illogical, unacceptable, faulty logic, praiseworthy is another thing and just knowing it is another.

    We are free to disagree. What shall I do if God has chosen me to go to hell and follow that demon who walked on earth and just like God took away that wicked soul when he was 32, he may also take me away the same way. But this is my fate and this is God's wish.

    I was simply chanting Rama nama, and he made arrangements to meet my Guru and then I started chanting OM. After that when I was confused as I had habit of chanting Rama nama, I simply surrendered to God and he himself erased his name and OM would continue. Still I feel great when I visit Hanuman temple or even hear about Rama nama, my heart is filled with joy and bhakti. But it is chosen for me to be an advaitin.

    When I chanted Rama nama, the mantra used to continue to pop up and continue many times against my wish. I also used to chant Hanuman ji name and some days the chanting was so powerful that I could not even sleep, it would go on by itself till 2-3 am in night, but it would not have any ill effect. This was before I was taught Advaita.

    All I did was to remain open and prayed to give me what is best for me. I didnt had any goal, I didnt study any shastra-s, just Rama nama and Hanuman ji nama. Thats it. Rest is all wish is Rama. He changed my path from Yoga to Bhakti or Advaita.

    btw, MimAmsaka-s, NyAyikA-s, Jains, Buddhists also have good reasons to accuse advaita. Have you heard using this word?

    Aum
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  10. #20
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    Re: nirgun brahman maya and sagun brahman

    Dear Amrut.,

    I am laughing and smiling after reading this message of yours and of course, i don't fall in love with faceless entities or entities that are not conceivable or 'get conceived' So, be assured that you are safe, kept at a distance and also respected as a dear brother with no non-natural attraction of any sort.

    I personally appreciate the change that Lord Rama bestowed on you and good luck and wishes for you to progress in your spiritual quest. Just a curious question though... if you were so close and enlightened that, Lord Rama Himself removed/erased His name from your mind, what was the need or necessity to presue anything more? Was Lord Rama was not fulfilling your quest or didn't show His svaRupa as S.Brahman at least? Was it all pure emotions with no logic, reasoning, wanting, desire, affinity, faith, pride?

    Looks like you have very very big heart and enlarged space in your brain to accommodate every principles that are spoken as simply "Advaita" and with so much storage, you do not care if they are time tested, acharya's versions or supported by the Pramana etc. but they are fine, as you are satisfied fully. If that is the stance, i can only remember the cat that keeps its eye closed when it is about to meet the death assuming there is nothing else is there. Do you know the story of "Blind cat" assuming the world is non existing?

    What an advaitin wants can be different but when such philosophy is presented in the public forum, even a ordinary like me can expect a coherent flow, as that is possible in the sytem of Advaita and also to be honest presenting the system as is with out adulteration!.

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