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Thread: AtmaKara

  1. #21

    Re: AtmaKara

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namast�

    This is from an older post...


    Ketu is not included for a specific reason... I will let one research why this is so; nothing in jyotish is haphazardly done.

    iti śivaṁ
    Respected Yajvanji

    I read above links where you have explained about atmakaraka,istadevata.Have a query on this.

    Many astrologers view D20 chart to know about spiritual evolution.How can we interpret Atmakaraka placement there?


    Also to reach moksha ,which GOD do we have to worship primarily? Istha devata or GOD pertaining to Atmakara?
    Last edited by Who am i; 28 May 2014 at 10:14 AM.

  2. #22
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    Re: AtmaKara

    Quote Originally Posted by saswathy View Post
    Dear friends ,
    Yes . The rule does not apply to Rahu . But why ? Is it is because Rahu and kethu are always retrograde . In such a case why can't the rule be applied to all retrograde planets , in so long as they are retrograde . It is a genuine doubt . rgds
    Saswathy ji,

    Yes, this thought had occurred to me too early on but the reasoning behind that probably has to do with dominant traits! Planets are dominantly direct whereas nodes are predominantly retrograde! Retrogression is the inherent and natural trait of nodes, direct motion is the dominant trait of the planets. Mother and Father, chandrama and surya are ALWAYS direct. (Although dear Krishna ji had mentioned that in Vakya approach (belief?) even chandrama can be retrograde but that it can ONLY be understood by self-realized Sages, which none of us on internet (or outside) probably are and so THAT is beyond our heads! <LOL>)

    Look at it another way, sister! Rahu and ketu always enter a rasi from the backdoor! Their first entry into a rasi, that is (as observed from earth where we great dirty unwashed must live and figure out UNCERTAINTY!)

    The ONLY time the planets enter a rashi through backdoor is after they have entered it from the frontdoor (direct motion), then left it and entered the next rashi through frontdoor, then like the proverbial prodigal son, reenter the previous rashi by the backdoor (retrograde motion).

    For example Saturn entering libra, moving to scorpio and then re-entering libra by retrograde motion and then leaving it direct and reentering scorpio!

    And other (normally) direct planets also do the same, from time to time!

    So it is not about incidental motion, but dominant tendencies that we must look at to understand this, perhaps.

    Regards,

    Rohiniranjan
    Last edited by Rohiniranjan; 28 May 2014 at 05:07 PM.

  3. #23
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    Re: AtmaKara

    ...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rohiniranjan
    Usually, realistically-speaking, no father, no sisya! Sometimes biology supervenes! ;-)

    Anyways, whatever you were taught you must believe in! But how can that become a universally accepted truth?

    See, how easily variant opinions can arise ...? There is no single opinion that prevails! Beliefs vary quite a bit even in those following the tenets of the same religion (Belief?), which is why I never force MY BELIEF on others, whether it be religious or astrological belief!

    Love and Light and REALITY?
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Quore:
    Yajvan ji's reply

    I look at it a bit differently. One's use of various systems come about from the results they yield. Then the lineage ( paramparā) sticks to the teaching as it is passed down. My teacher and its lineage follows this approach.
    Yet, as you mention and I agree - there is no force feeding on my side for any one idea or approach. Yet one must look to the fruit it yields and decide for oneself.

    But that said, there are many things I'd like to believe but the facts do not bear them out. I have shared many on HDF - that I would think X would happen , but using the Y approach ( or knowledge) would be the correct way.
    If I looked at the sun each and every day I would conclude by my observation that the sun goes around the earth... my perception verifies this every day , yet unfortunately it is not the case. Like that , I tend to keep an open mind and am always willing to drop a pre-existing idea for new information that offers more insight and is closer to the truth.
    So, my orientation is thus:
    •Amatyakaraka - the natural significator (kāraka) is gūrū some call bṛhaspati or jupiter.
    •Pitrikaraka - the natural significator (kāraka) is the sun or sūrya/ravi.
    When we look to the kāraka definitions for these, they align nicely to the applications for one's gūrū and one's father as applied.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


    Dear Yajvan ji,

    I fully understand your position on this and the *example* you offered! Certainly, even ancient astronomers went through this geocentric understanding when they claimed (and the prevailing religion (belief) whole-heartedly supported (this is documented HISTORY and not a supposition!) this view of the universe, including the SUN going around our stationary globe and at one time people even refused to believe that the earth was round and thought that the horizon was where ships would fall off the edge of our earth!

    Books were burnt and note-books confiscated of those who dared to claim that the earth is not flat, and then the same insisted that earth was going around the SUN and not vice versa and so too the planets which went around the sun and the CHURCHes reacted vehemently against such stupid claimants! More books got burnt, and cups of hemlock handed to brilliant minds who opposed such!

    Now the tides have turned and general public has turned against who really holds the KNOWLEDGE and TRUTH! And even now folks in general have not figured out the CHANGING face of reality! HOW IRONICAL?

    ************************
    Quite oblivious from all that astronomy/science vs the church of belief (there are so many!), astrologers en masse have consistently continue to believe that the universe is geocentric and planets do turn retrograde (an illusion, according to astronomers and scientists who pooh pooh those that believe in astrology, just as even astrologers now give example of folks who once believed that the sun goes around the earth when proving a point ;-)

    But what to do? We poor minority (compared to the billions that are beholden to the CHURCH of SCIENCE (another belief system most modern?) astrologers SEE the value and reality in our continuing belief in sunrise and sunset, sun in midheaven, retrograde planets, the rashis, nakshatras, even the invisible nodes (showing up their presence during eclipses when all three *ducks* line up with the invisible NODES!), and even more mathematical points such as gulika, shikhi, praanapada, dhooma, etc etc, which are TRULY INVISIBLE! And the finer vargas and the progressions of the moon (nakshatra dashas) and many more constructs that remain invisible but their influence is so starkly visible in our BELIEF SYSTEM of astrology!

    KNOWLEDGE is much higher than BELIEF, but if we look dispassionately at growth and development of human beings, each belief was an important stepping-stone as human beings experimented with life and nature and the general darkness of UNCERTAINTY that surrounds us still and where the belief-system of astrology manages to shine a light, from time to time!

    Hence all beliefs must be respected and NEVER forced upon others as the ONLY TRUTH or description of REALITY that no one alive or perhaps very few truly understand?

    Any BELIEF system truly becomes a shackle when innocense and humility goes out of it and it begans to think that ALL THAT IS, is within it, and not that all belief systems are within the ALL THAT IS, and that there might be more beyond each belief...?

    The history of mankind teaches us that simple truth or what we all have collectively gathered, so far in our collective growth!

    We have different beliefs even within astrology and yet, NO ONE has been able to claim with any guaranty that they are 100% accurate each and every time! Or able to demonstrate that, ever! So, shouldn't that simple truth give us astrologers, of any cloth, a good dose of humility and the virtue of remaining humble and open the shutters of our mind, so that more light can enter our lives and further enlighten and give our BELIEFs a chance to grow?

    That was and is my simple point, which I submit humbly to all of you fellow astrologers!

    Love and Light and REALITY! :-)

    Rohiniranjan

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    Re: AtmaKara

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namaste


    Quote Originally Posted by Who am i View Post
    Respected Yajvanji

    I read above links where you have explained about atmakaraka,istadevata.Have a query on this.

    Many astrologers view D20 chart to know about spiritual evolution.How can we interpret Atmakaraka placement there?

    Also to reach moksha ,which GOD do we have to worship primarily? Istha devata or GOD pertaining to Atmakara?
    The D20 chart no doubt is of interest; yet if one passed up the D9 chart they would certainly be left short. For this knowledge , look to jaimini's sūtra-s also called upadeśa sutra-s. The wisdom/translation of sanjay rath on this book is of great value.


    When speaking of one's iṣṭa-devatā, the ambassador of the formless that has form, consider the following HDF posts, as they may be of assistance.
    part 1
    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=746

    part 2

    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=748

    part 3

    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=764


    praām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  5. #25
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    Re: AtmaKara

    Dear friend ,
    When they are considered as mathematical points , where does the question of dominant trait arise .
    Secondly I always wonder about the placements of planets in divisional charts . Take for example Navamsa . The rasi is divided in to 9 parts and a planet is posted to that particular segment depending upon the degree position . So far so good . But when it comes to Rahu or kethu , logically speaking , it should be counted from backwards .Then WHY it is not posted like that . For that matter in all divisional charts , Rahu or kethu should be placed like that only .
    If this rule is applied in all divisional charts , a sea of difference comes in the result as far as the period of Rahu or kethu is concerned , especially the bhava is concerned .
    To avoid this anamoly , I stopped counting Rahu and kethu for the calculation of dasa and anthardasas . I take only the seven planets .
    May be I am wrong . I take Rahu and kethu as shadowy planets only and decide their result and significance with respect to their associates , including the dasa period .That is if Rahu is assiciated with jupiter and is in star of jupiter then ( according to my weird calculation to some) I give the dasa period of Rahu as 16 years and his attributes as those of Jupiter .Thus I take all those of Rahu's influencers .Sometimes I got brilliant results , but sometimes I failed miserably .So something some where is a flaw . rgds .

  6. #26

    Re: AtmaKara

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namaste




    The D20 chart no doubt is of interest; yet if one passed up the D9 chart they would certainly be left short. For this knowledge , look to jaimini's sūtra-s also called upadeśa sutra-s. The wisdom/translation of sanjay rath on this book is of great value.


    When speaking of one's iṣṭa-devatā, the ambassador of the formless that has form, consider the following HDF posts, as they may be of assistance.
    part 1
    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=746

    part 2

    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=748

    part 3

    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=764


    praām

    Hi Yajvanji

    Thanks for reply.

  7. #27
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    Re: AtmaKara

    My answers inserted after your questions, Saswathy ji, in red!

    Quote Originally Posted by saswathy View Post
    Dear friend ,
    When they are considered as mathematical points , where does the question of dominant trait arise .
    RR: Trait/tendency: Movement! :-) I am sure you understood, but the active and enthusiastic mind never ceases to find questions bubbling up! That can be a tendency or a trait too <LOL> In the jyotish framework, aided by math and astronomy, whether it be apinda or sapinda, they all move! But which way they move, forward or backward is what we should focus on, lest there be confusion! Sometimes real, sometimes contrived...? ;-)

    Secondly I always wonder about the placements of planets in divisional charts . Take for example Navamsa . The rasi is divided in to 9 parts and a planet is posted to that particular segment depending upon the degree position . So far so good . But when it comes to Rahu or kethu , logically speaking , it should be counted from backwards .Then WHY it is not posted like that . For that matter in all divisional charts , Rahu or kethu should be placed like that only .
    RR: AH! another confusion perhaps? :-) The nine parts belong to the rasi and perhaps you would next want to take Sirshodayi, prishtodayi etc classification, I think for vargas, we can take the way the rasis rise daily and the sun as it progresses DIRECT from month to month? In the normal order in which rasis are arranged, along the cosmic circle - the zodiac! Perhaps you should rearrange in your experimentations the lay of navamshas according to whether a rasi rises from the head or tail or both ends...? ;-)

    If this rule is applied in all divisional charts , a sea of difference comes in the result as far as the period of Rahu or kethu is concerned , especially the bhava is concerned .
    To avoid this anamoly , I stopped counting Rahu and kethu for the calculation of dasa and anthardasas . I take only the seven planets .
    RR: I really pity the plight of poor nodes and the rest of the baby of astrology that might next get chucked out with the bath-water!

    May be I am wrong . I take Rahu and kethu as shadowy planets only and decide their result and significance with respect to their associates , including the dasa period .That is if Rahu is assiciated with jupiter and is in star of jupiter then ( according to my weird calculation to some) I give the dasa period of Rahu as 16 years and his attributes as those of Jupiter .Thus I take all those of Rahu's influencers .Sometimes I got brilliant results , but sometimes I failed miserably .So something some where is a flaw . rgds .
    I have seen astrologers who have used wrong birthdata due to honest errors but yet managed to give brilliant results! God's Leela-Who could understand that? Certainly not a lowly MORTAL like this tiny ant...! <LOL>
    Love and Light (no levity!),

    Rohiniranjan

  8. #28
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    Re: AtmaKara

    Quote Originally Posted by Mana View Post
    Namaste,



    Yajvan Ji, Ketu as Mokṣa karaka cannot be indicative of ones soul, else Mokṣa would already have been attained and the atman have no path thus reason for this birth.

    Who am i, Your bhāva chakra is who you are due to your interaction with this world; the raśī chakra is the truth and as such to be used for predictions; you may feel though to be closer to the results supposed by your bhāva chakra, this will evolve as you walk through life.

    If the Jyotisa that you chose is not spiritually mature; their atma will colour your reading. Your atmakaraka is Budha this conundrum seems indicative of that very nature, to be watchful of truth and always be truthful is your souls lesson in this birth.
    How would you say that you see your life? The results given for the two different atmakaraka placements vary greatly; I am certain that you are able to feel which one really correlates to your experience, above that which is projected by life's influences and circumstances.

    Kind regards.
    Mana ji,

    Someone once stated that the Jyotisa (you meant Jyotishi, hopefully?) that one gets is not a random occurrence but that too is destined and being a guide (of sorts!) the guide and the acolyte (Jyotishi-nativity; Guru-disciple/shisya) are optimally matched by destiny! In fact some jyotishis even insist that even remedies arrive only when one is destined to recover! S/he was using that as an argument against a statement I once made, that the use of remedials in astrology indicates that it is not fatalistic and allows room for freedom of will and choice!
    What can one say against such BELIEFs and believe me those exist! ;-)

    Regards,

    Rohiniranjan

  9. #29
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    Re: AtmaKara

    Dear friends ,
    Yes . Free will is like that length of the chain with which a dog or goat is tied , which allows that much of the moving . If remedial measures are not meant , to write off the repurcussions of the original sin , in some cases, they are not performed properly or stop getting performed at all due to various obstacles . If any thing can be written off like that , that easily , by appointed professionals , all rich people can ward off all their neative karma .Unfortunately for them, divine justice is the same to all and there is no room for any partiality whatsoever . In case of utmost repentance , intense trust and single minded devotion , it can be postponed , the bad karma's result , and get distributed over some births , so that the intensity would not not felt very strongly .Then sometimes we see actual fructification of good results after doing parihara .But then AGAIN that is a part of the destiny where the sin and atonement both are indicated .Usually Jupiter , 9th lord , lagnadhipathi , in an unafflicted state show that remedial measures do work if done properly . rgds

  10. Re: AtmaKara

    Dear RR ji,

    I would say nothing against such; one might spend many lifetimes to know the nature of the self. A repeating cycle of linear belief will self propagate for an iternity I am sure; yet one might also break from that bondage instantly by way of a single simple realized thought.

    That is the nature of śiva, of God consciousness; as much part of our beloved jytis as it is the whole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rohiniranjan View Post
    ... What can one say against such BELIEFs and believe me those exist! ;-)
    Belief is the mental construct that makes the wheel of this universe turn, that which makes us so predictable; To speak against any perspective is to consolidate its existence as a differentiate; Thus turning the wheel further and propagating its existence.

    Kind regards.
    8i8

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