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Thread: Who Attains Moksha?

  1. #11
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    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    Put any name for constitution or knowledge the fact remains same. The TRUTH - knowledge is constant.

    Constitution - dharma - religion - varies with time. That is why in every era it has been re-casted by great people.

    Now what is moksha ? It is a deep subject. I will state briefly - as I understand. Will go further deep on queries.

    The main layers of existence are Consciousness, Subtle world and Gross World. The substratum is consciousness - on which is the subtle world and the top layer is gross world. Anything and everthing in gross world has to have subtle world and consciousness. Subtle world will have consciousness. And consciousness is independent.

    The manifestation and unmanifestation follow the same sequence.

    Body belongs to gross world. Mind the subtle and Consciousness is the base that these two exist - that "I am" is a proof of consciousness.

    At consciousness level - it is attributeless, changeless, timeless, etc. It is the ultimate form which pervades everything. At this level the frequency of change is zero.

    At subtle level - i.e. mind level - the thoughts those arise, the characteristics those are embedded in mind is a state of frequency. This frequency is the starting point of the manifestation of gross world or rebirth.

    So as I observe my mind and my body - "I" observes the fluctuations in the minds due the thoughts and charateristics. "I" also observes the actions by the body. "I" can only sense the slightest deviation in mind when "I" itself is absolutely still.

    Now what happens when the mind frequency becomes zero. Then the "I" cannot distingush - at this state the subtle body unmanifests and merges into consciousness - this state is ideal moksha. However this is not possible till we have body. That is why if we reach within a certain threshold, the rest is taken care after we leave the body. This threshold is the realistic moksha - achievable by us.

    Frequency zero or near about - no thoughts, no ego, no desire. We cannot avoid thoughts - however if those are without ego or desire, the effect on state of mind is almost nil. Doing for others with love and without any expectations is such activity.

    Now if this is agreed then ideally speaking, it is independent of body. It is true for people who are already within close vicinity of the threshold. But for others it is dependent on body.

    Now the body is dependent on external factors. One amongst them is food. So how is food linked to mind.

    It is because it is a connected system right from top to bottom. Minds of the cells contribute to minds of organs to mind of human to mind of society to mind of country - world - universe - God. Thus out of the mind of God is the manifestation - i.e. rebirths.

    Now we have the foods also identified as satvik, rajasik and tamasik. Satvik foods are easily convertible by cells, and tamasic foods are difficult to convert and has lots of unhealthy by products.

    These foods once taken - affect the minds of cells - thus the organs and thus human minds.

    So it is not only cow flesh but any food in the tamasic category is detrimental to the mind of human.

    Why detrimental ? The satvik foods contribute towards satvik minds which can grasp the knowledge and assimilate and live that knowledge in less time than the other two. Other two are handicapped to different degrees.

    However if one takes tamasic food once might be different from one who takes regularly.

    So it is not simple equation but the basic understanding is thus.

    So moksha and food are two different subjects - can be independent of each other or can be dependent, depending on one's state of mind.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

  2. #12

    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    Pranam-s, Kallol:

    Thank you for such an enlightening read.

    Do Tamasic foods have a hierarchy? Are there certain foods that are more Tamasic than other foods?

  3. #13
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    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    I cannot segregate further but going by the logic, the more difficult to digest and / or more by-products - should be more tamasic.

    That is more stressful for a cell to convert, more stressful for a body to work upon, more deviation the body has from normal due to digestion - the more tamasic.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

  4. #14
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    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana View Post
    Is Moksha applicable to non-Hindus, etc. etc. etc.?

    Shruti* clearly says that consumers of cow-flesh, regardless of racial and social background, do not attain "moksha"/"amrita-s" (immortality).

    Shruti also clearly says that those who do not offer the proper (Vrata) prayers and sacrifices and oblations, do not attain "moksha"/"amrita-s" (immortality).

    So, how is "moksha" described in the non-Shrutic scriptures of Hindu Dharma?
    PranAm,

    As we all know, in our sanathana dharma, smriti exists only to elaborate on the shruti and not to present a contrary ideal. When you mention "non Hindus" other problems creep up like having incorrect/misleading knowledge. But I believe the thread is only as pertaining to the food.

    In our Shruti is explained clearly the relationship b/w food and the mind and so those ideas about food not affecting our sadhana clearly doesn't represent the majority of Hindu thought. Further it is said: when the food is pure the mind is pure.

    In Bhagavad Gita also is explained the way to go beyond the 3 modes of nature is to remain in Sattva and also Arjuna is advised to stick to sAttvic food. With any kind of flesh along with rajas and tamas also springs the karma. For certain kinds of flesh (certainly not for cows), Vedic yagnas seem to have existed as a compromise to neutralize the karma and so is very different from eating non veg in a restaurant today. Even when one sticks to sAttvic food, one is required to offer it to the Brahman as a sAdhanA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana View Post
    Can the most morally just, socially valorous, etc. etc. etc. person attain "moksha" even if that person eats cow-flesh?
    Ignoring the fact for now that compassion to animals also is a big part of morality, a good Christian/muslim may progress and take up births as a Hindu to come closer to God. This is why Hinduism is the only true universal religion because it doesn't absolutely condemn any one including a good atheist. However with food steeped in sins and misguided ideals, it only seems that most will go towards downfall only.

    In Sri Vaishnavam, we say that since He is independant we cannot absolutely dismiss any possibility of moksha. But we can safely speak for majority of cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana View Post
    Bonus Question for Vaishnavites: Shri Krishna says that anyone can approach him with any type of devotional method (be it on a "leaf", "yajna", etc.). But, what about someone that approaches Him even though that person is a eater of cow-flesh? How do eaters of cow-flesh attain "moksha" if they approach an almighty God like Shri Krishna who Himself was a cow-herd during his youth (as per Līlā)?
    All significant Vaishnava traditions offer only sAttvic food to Lord Vishnu. The "leaf", "water" here indicates the accessibility of Krishna to all souls and is not to be taken to justify offering foods steeped in sins.

    Many indeed seem to have approached Krishna through great souls like Srila Prabupada and have given up on eating flesh and living in violation of the Vedic dharma. There is no need for anyone embracing our sanathana dharma sincerely, be it a Shaiva or Vaishnava, to continue living the way they did before.

  5. #15
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    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    There is much one can say about this subject... let me offer just a few ideas. This is offered not to challenge, but to offer a different vantage point.

    The conversation that is taking place is within the field of action that involves karma, karta, and kārya. That of action (karma¹), karta (separation , distinction) and kārya (practised, performed, aim or purpose). It is within karma, karta and kārya the 3 guna-s perform their duty.

    We are told that without any exception all actions are performed by the 3 guna-s¹. And we are informed in the bhāgavad gītā, chapt, 2 45th śloka :

    nistraiguo = nis + trai+ guo - without + 3 + guna-s

    That is, to be without the 3 guna-s - then one is free from duality or karta (separation , distinction). This is where one will find this mokṣa unveiled.

    There is a concern of meat eating. I myself do not think it is conducive to one's health and avoid it. Yet all else that one does within the realm of the 3 guna-s also keeps the veil on this mokṣa . So, we have targeted meat as one action. What of all the others? They are collected within the 3 guna-s.

    So, one pursues the notion of not eating meat. I applaud it and advocate that meat eating is one less thing on the list to get rid of. But what of the other thousand things ? They too must be addressed but not 1 by 1. They need to be rid of in one swoop.

    ramaṇa mahaṛṣi said it best ( for me ) : The more you prune the plant the more vigorously it grows. The more you rectify your karma the more it accumulates. Find the root of karma and cut it off.

    So , what is the root of karma. It is none other then the 3 guna-s. To rid one's self of these 3, then what remains ( not what is obtained) is the rays of the Self that shine in all of its brightness. One is ātma-niṣṭa ( established in the Self) some like to call ātma-siddhi (Self-realization).

    So , what then is this mokṣa ? It is ignorance exhausted. Exhausted of what? That I am not this body-frame, this ego, this individual entity. When this falls away then one can say they mokṣ - 'to cast away', and is mokṣayadhvam - one who dwells in mokṣa.

    iti śivaṁ

    words
    • karma is short for karman - action. It is said there is 4 types:
      • nirvartya , when anything new is produced
      • vikārya , when change is implied either of the substance and form
      • prāpya , when any desired object is attained
      • anīpsita, when an undesired object is abandoned
    • Action performed by the 3 guna-s - from the bhāgavad gītā, chapt 3, 27th śloka
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  6. #16
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    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    Namaste
    Quote Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana View Post
    ****Theologically, this means: May they [the Yatudhana-s] be denied Amrita, the ever-lasting reunion with the Shri Gods, with the Consciousness of the Gods/Deva-s. Shruti clearly denies "moksha" for consumers of cow-flesh. Yatudhana-s = eaters of cow-flesh, regardless of racial and social background.
    Who Attains Moksha?

    If we are going to examine this question first of all we should know what is moksha.
    So what do you think what is moksha?
    Since you have mostly read the Rig Veda so far, it may be that your understanding of moksha is quite different from others such as vaishnavas for example.

    The use of certain phrases and words in the Rig Veda may differ from the use of these words in the scriptures such as Upanishads, Bhagavad gita and Puranas for instance. Thus, as far as I know, in the Rig Veda term amrita is primarily related to the ascent of the soul to heaven ruled by Indra. This amrita, however, has nothing to do with amrita (immortal state) that transcends life in Indra's heaven and which is attained only when the soul reaches eternal life in Vaikuntha which is the only true amrita (immortal state) according to vaishnavas. So amrita can refer to both, ascent of the soul to Indra's heaven which is not the final liberation, but also it can refer to ascent of the soul to the state of eternal life in Vaikuntha which is final liberation.
    If you want I can give you some quotes from the scriptures about it, but if you have followed my writing on the HDF so far, you've already seen what I wrote about that.

    regards

  7. #17

    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa View Post
    Thus, as far as I know, in the Rig Veda term amrita is primarily related to the ascent of the soul to heaven ruled by Indra. This amrita, however, has nothing to do with amrita (immortal state) that transcends life in Indra's heaven and which is attained only when the soul reaches eternal life in Vaikuntha which is the only true amrita (immortal state) according to vaishnavas. So amrita can refer to both, ascent of the soul to Indra's heaven which is not the final liberation, but also it can refer to ascent of the soul to the state of eternal life in Vaikuntha which is final liberation.
    If you want I can give you some quotes from the scriptures about it, but if you have followed my writing on the HDF so far, you've already seen what I wrote about that.
    Pranam-s,

    While I do not agree with all of the above, I find your post valuable and important to this thread: it provides a well-rounded discussion: the differing views of various Hindu sects are always welcomed. In fact, it was asked in the OP that various Hindu sect-members provide their explanations as pertaining to moksha in relation to consuming cow-flesh. Can you provide the Gaudiya Vaishnava view regarding consumption of cow-flesh and how it relates to "moksha"?

  8. #18

    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    What is Moksha? Who attains Moksha? Can cow-eaters attain
    Moksha..? I think these are the 3 questions being discussed here.
    Good questions. One needs to have good clarity on these to improve sadhana.

    According to my understanding:

    1.
    Man's life on this earth is temporary. Man's life continues even after this. He has life between two births also. His real nature is to be without this physical body. He takes rebirth (may be any form) as long as he has desire for form and name (nama and rupa). Moksha is when he has no desire to have any form and wants to be in his original state. Liberation. Freedom.
    Salvation is only temporary pause in rebirth or cycle of samsara. It is not liberation.

    2. Man has to reach the state of mind where he has no desire to take form.
    . This may be possible by jnana, gaining knowledge (not intellectual) of his real nature and see that taking form is not needed. He has to do lot of sadhana for this as this worldly or sensory inputs, pleasures etc always have strong influence on him. His mind has to diverted to Lord so that it is free from this grosser effects. Guru is needed to guide and help him. Many paths in this world. Good people are everywhere in East and West , not only in India or in Hinduism. GOD is not restricted to anyone or any area.

    Liberation is first step and Realization of Lord is last step or goal. Moksha is not Realization of Lord. There are many regions of consciousness. Once he reaches Brahmanda consciousness he is liberated. In chakra tradition, when one reaches Ajna chakra then one is liberated. So one's consciousness goes from Animal to human and then to Divine then only this ascend can happen. This person always works for good of all renouncing selfishness. All his actions become duty towards GOD or duty given by GOD (source of all life)


    3. Can he meat..? If he eats meat, then can he get Moksha..? Not possible.
    As first step is to grow to human level. Human is defined as one who follows the following principles atleast of Satya, Ahimsa, Astheya, Aparigraha and Brahmacharya. Then he can proceed to become divine having qualities of Service, Sacrifice, Forgiveness, Karuna etc. So one who becomes human when he avoids all himsa. So meat eating is to be avoided. If one has desire to eat that then he is not even human according to Sastras.

    Exceptions:
    There are always exceptions to rules.
    How to sustain when there is severe drought or when we are in a place where there is nothing else to feed this body. Then doing duty of feeding with meat may be allowed as he is doing the duty. But these are exceptions. In one Purana, Rishis started eating dog flesh due to drought.
    Read story of Dharmapada where he sells meat in his meat shop.

    In the coldest places on earth, no vegetation is possible, then how to live..? If you eat meat as exception and as duty that will be forgiven by Lord. So anybody in West or East has to progress in these qualities of Satya , Ahimsa otherwise no Moksha.

    Why only cow-meat..but any meat eating is to be avoided. Eating Cow-meat is more worse as this animal is very pious having sattvik behavior and doing service to man.

    Whatever i wrote is due to the practice i did following a path called Natural Path which is a modified Rajayoga,

  9. #19
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    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    Namaste

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana
    In fact, it was asked in the OP that various Hindu sect-members provide their explanations as pertaining to moksha in relation to consuming cow-flesh. Can you provide the Gaudiya Vaishnava view regarding consumption of cow-flesh and how it relates to "moksha"?
    Regarding food in vaishnava understanding, jignyAsu has already given the answer. A vaishnava will never eat meat because it is killed animal, and killing in itself is a work of tamas (mode of ignorance, darkness). It is said in Bhagavad-gītā 14.18 (http://vedabase.net/bg/14/18/en) about persons situated in the modes of sattva, rajas and tamas:

    "Those situated in the mode of goodness gradually go upward to the higher planets; those in the mode of passion live on the earthly planets; and those in the abominable mode of ignorance go down to the hellish worlds."

    Thus, it is hard to expect that someone who kills animals in an illegal manner (including a cow), a manner contrary to the provisions of the scriptures, can attain moksha. In Vedic civilization cows are supposed to be protected and not killed. Bhagavad-gītā 18.44 (http://vedabase.net/bg/18/44/en) says that cows should be protected "Farming, cow protection and business are the natural work for the vaiśyas". Vishnu Purana says namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca "My Lord, You are the well-wisher of the cows and the brāhmaṇas".

    However, scriptures do not entirely prohibit the killing of animals. Killing of certain animals is allowed in sacrifices. However a vaishnava does not want to participate in such sacrifices and certainly does not want to eat meat offered in those sacrifices although eating of such meat is not contrary to scriptural injunctions. Such is the standard of vaishnavas or if you wish, vaishnava ideas about correct and acceptable behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana
    Do Tamasic foods have a hierarchy? Are there certain foods that are more Tamasic than other foods?
    Certain consideration can be given in connection with this. To eat animals killed in an illegal manner would be the most tamasic. Even some plants are considered tamasic and are not allowed for food such as onions, garlic, leeks and mushrooms. Vaishnavas do not eat meat, fish, eggs and plants mentioned above. I've even heard that soybeans is one of the tamasic food, but is not considered to be very much tamasic and some vaishnavas are offering it to the deities.

    regards

  10. #20

    Re: Who Attains Moksha?

    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa View Post
    Thus, it is hard to expect that someone who kills animals in an illegal manner (including a cow), a manner contrary to the provisions of the scriptures, can attain moksha.
    emphasis mine

    Pranam-s,

    Thank you for your answer, much appreciated.

    regards

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