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Thread: throttled down....

  1. #1
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    throttled down....

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    I have mentioned that within non dual or advitīya kaśmiri śaivism the Supreme, called paramaśiva, throttles itself down into creation. It is never opposed to creation nor is it different from it. This school says it (creation) appears within the Supreme, it is not outside of it. This clearly infers I am in this creation, you are in this creation, so is that tree, scrub, mountain, galaxy, etc. and therefore we too must , by common sense applied, be an expression of śiva.

    On a very high and lofty view of this , we are informed that this notion is correct: yatsattatparamārthohi paramārthastataḥ śivaḥ |
    this says ( in general) ,
    that which is Existence (sattā) is the highest (param) Reality; the Universe is of the nature of that Reality, therefore everything is śivaḥ

    This is from abhinavagupta's work parā-trīśikā vivaraṇa. It is a śloka where he gives praise to anuttara ( the Supreme, unsurpassable).

    This is expressed again in another place and informs us where this Supreme can be met within ourselves. This is from abhinavagupta-ji’s tantrāloka 10.283. It says,
    turyātīte bheda ekaḥ satatodita ityam ||

    This says ( in general)
    • turyātīta – beyond (atīta) or past + turya (turīya) the 4th
    • bheda – distinction, division
    • satatodita - without break or pause, uninterrupted ; satata = perpetual, continual + udita = elevated, high, tall, lofty; indicated , signified
    • ekaḥ - alone , solitary , single; that one only
    • ityam - to be gone to or towards; some can also this it is íti referring to something that has been said, in this case the verse being offered.
    Thus ( iti) the condition of turyātīta is without break or pause (division or bheda) , everywhere; it is single and solitary because there is nothing other than itself extended , uninterrupted everywhere.
    This infers when one experiences this it is completely uninterrupted – it is there when the eyes are open or closed, in activity or without activity. Some have said this is the final āśrama¹ ( halting place).

    Thus ( iti) the condition of turyātīta is without break or pause,

    Yet for us in the human condition these notions are not ones direct personal experiences… for some a glimpse may arrive now and then, for others these words do not resonate at all. But as one studies , pending their school of choice we are informed of those that came before us had these experiences and the truth of the matter is we too are of this metal.

    What then is the markers of the throttled-down condition within us that we recognize ? Let me offer the following for one’s kind consideration and deliberation.

    When Being chooses to express itself as individual ( as you) you experience it in the following ways... that is, the human traits listed below are none other than an expression of the Supreme in a limited manner. Just as gold takes the form of an ear-ring or bracelet or bangle, it is still gold.

    1. the Supreme’s power of being completely full or pūrṇatvam is experienced by humans as being limited or individual. It leads to the 'feeling' of being incomplete, in need of something to feel compete again.

    2. the Supreme’s power of being eternal or nityatvam is experienced by the individual as time. We know that time is nothing more than the eternal metered out; the measurement of eternity in seconds, minutes, hours, days, years, decades, yet never being used up, never coming to an end. For us we experience it as aging. Because of this aging our frame of reference takes on the notion of past, present, and future that occurs upon the eternal ~now~ .

    3. the Supreme’s power of being infinite or vyāpakatvam, all pervading, is experienced within the individual as being in one place at a time ( being localized) ; multiple places are possible but not at the same time. That is, the body is required to move from here-to-there to experience multiple places. So, one 'feels' limited to a certain space.

    4. the Supreme’s power to do everything or sarva karttvam, is throttled down to do some things. The human experiences doing things sequentially within the space and time limitation mentioned above. Choices become , ' I can do this , I do not want to do that, I cannot do that, I am not capable of doing this or that '.

    5. the Supreme’s power of full knowledge called sarva-jñātvam is throttled down to the power to know some things. To have the knowledge of finite things.
    I know how to ride a bike, I do not know how to swim; I know how to sew, I do not know how to paint. I know how to ( fill in the blank) , I do not know how to (fill in the blank). Because of this limited knowledge I am capable of some particular action or skill and not others, as mentioned in point 4 above.

    So, this human condition is the divine experiencing the universe within the limits of a certain space within a certain time with limited knowledge and actions and gains limited fullness or joy from these experiences. Yet all these experiences take place on the canvas of the infinite, unbounded , fullness of Being.

    This in and of itself is the motivating factor (as I see it) for one to look for more ; there is an innate core feeling that there is something greater then this individuality and there is a fullness (pūratvam) that is available.
    This (IMHO) is the motivating force for one to look for happiness and joy. It comes to a person on a limited basis for a metered period of time. Sometimes it is only for a moment, hours, days, etc. but because it cannot be sustained without another dose of stimulation from the environment (things, people, places, items of collection, family, friends, clothing, degrees, positions of power, etc.) it fades and once again the person is in pursuit of the feeling of joy, happiness and fullness of Being.

    But where does it all start , this throttling down ? What is the first initial step ? Let’s me offer some ideas in the next post.

    iti śivaṁ

    words
    • āśrama – we know as a a hermitage; it is also a stage in life that is:
      • brahmacārin - student
      • ghastha - householder
      • vānaprastha - recluse
      • sanyāsin - abandoning all worldly concerns
    In each of these conditions it is a place where one halts and takes refuge; āśrama is sometimes referred to as a halting place
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: throttled down....

    Hi,

    The effect cannot be completely different from the cause, for we never see a mustard seed used to produce a cloth. Yes, the limited goodness of the human condition is possible only because that goodness has to be available in an infinite amount in the primeval cause.

    Under this view, what of the limited badness inherent in the human condition? Does this also exist in an infinite amount in the primeval cause?

    Is badness ontologically the absence of goodness (my guess is that this is going to be the solution proferred) so that with the elimination of upadhis, the inherent goodness will become more expansive from its "throttled" state and there is no badness left?

    But where does it all start , this throttling down ? What is the first initial step ?
    There is no "first" point in time when the throttling down happened. Time never had a beginning. Even the samkhya evolution from pradhana down to the gross elements are to be understood either as an ontological evolution that does not happen within time, or else, if it is required to understand the evolution from a temporal POV, then it is to be understood as cycles of srishti, sthithi and pralaya, that have been happening eternally along a linear time scale. There are interpretations of Samkhyakarika that support both views. Samkhya explains passage of time using the change inherent in prakriti and something that is inherent in something cannot have had a beggining in time.

    In other words, the universe has an eternal past and there is no beginning to the universe. It always was thus.

  3. #3
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    Re: throttled down....

    namaste

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    Hi,
    There is no "first" point in time when the throttling down happened. Time never had a beginning.
    Yes, your assessment make sense if we were dealing in time... What is being offered is not time based.
    I say this because my post offered the following words: What is the first initial step ? Let’s me offer some ideas in the next post. I can see how it could translated as a time based event.

    You mention cause and effect. Pending the school of thought one uses as a base line, this cause-effect conversation is a worthy tool when there is duality. That is, the classical potter and the pot discussion often used to express this idea.
    Yet this notion needs to be re-considered when there is complete fullness and wholeness. That is, for cause and effect there needs to be 2, no ? What then of a ~system~ where there is no two ? this has confounded many a native when some of the most advanced muni-s come to say ' nothing really happens'. This is their direct personal experience. Yet for the common native getting one's mind aligned to this notion is not the first stop on the road.

    I am not pushing back on your offer. I am suggesting, pending the school of thought the knowlege is coming from , the conversation details will be different. But, the insight here is, a person's experinces transits though these different schools as they grow. They are there for one's support and insight to assist them in practice, comprehension, and peace of mind. My teacher was alway of this point of view. The 6 classical schools ( with another 10 that can be found) of indian thought are not opposed to each other ( as some may think). they are 6 views that are there for one's develpment and support.

    iti sivam
    Last edited by yajvan; 20 November 2014 at 02:03 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #4
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    Re: throttled down....

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    A kind reminder to the reader: this exposition is a non dual or advitīya kaśmiri śaivism view of the Supreme; other views may and will vary. This is for insight to compare and contrast knowledge. Do not let this infringe ( not even one iota) on your peace of mind.


    According to kaśmiri śaivism just this one thing of āṇavamala gets the ball rolling for the Supreme’s¹ march into the finite level of being.
    This mala ( blemish) is also called/ described as apūrṇatā. I mention this not to confuse or add more words, but to be a bit more specific. This term apūrṇatā means non-fullness. It is the first stop for lack of a better term of when the Supreme throttles-down into the limited world. Note this is not a time-based action, let alone a space-based action. It is words used to express ideas which when talking of the infinite are (words) constrained by trying to express infinity within the finite.
    So, this term āṇavamala is the blemish (mala) of smallness (āṇava¹), of limits. It is this contraction of the whole into the parts. It is like taking the ocean and containing it into a drop ( we're the drop). The drop is still wet, still cool, still water like, but is it constrained into the limited size of a drop, but no less a limb (aga) of the ocean.

    From some of the things mentioned above ( in the last paragraph and post 1 above) infer differences in doing. The differences of the Supreme then for our human condition. Let me explain:
    Let's say the Supreme wishes to create. There is his will, knowledge, and action. His Will is executed without break or pause because of having total and full knowledge; nothing in his will is stopped or hindered because of the lack of knowledge to act. Nothing has to be pondered ; the actions are perfect, complete and total because the knowledge is complete.

    Now let's think of us, of the human (the divine throttled down to human form). What happens with us ? We have some desire, yet we cannot act on that desire until we have the knowledge to execute it. Consider the following.

    Before we wish to do something in a successful manner ( vs. haphazardly or randomly) we need to acquire the knowledge to do the action successfully. The gathering of knowledge can be formal ( training, schooling) or it can be by trial and error. Say you wish to ride a bike. You try by the trial and error method, fall off many times, catch your foot in the spokes, all that. Then you can try a more ~formal~ method of being taught by your parents. A less painful approach as they are there to guide and catch you. Or you could even take a class on how to ride a bike.

    For the Supreme there is no learning curve; The will of the Supreme is executed flawlessly. For humans, not so much, as we are within the field of limitation of knowledge and action. Also note we have a desire to say ride a bike or paint a picture or acquire things. We are looking to fulfill that desire so we can experience something; to bring wholeness to ourselves, to accomplish something that will make us happy that in the end contributes to our feeling of wholeness and to feel complete again. But what of the Supreme ? This is where different schools have different opinions on the notion of desires. Some schools are of the opinion that there is a desire within the Supreme and all is born from this desire. Yet within kaśmiri śaivism this is not the point of view taken.

    Kaśmiri śaivism suggests that Being (śiva) is full in its Self, is whole, complete. From where can a desire arise if we agree that the term desire means an impulse to fulfill something ( a need, want, a lack of something). If the Supreme is fullness itself , what can it possibly need ? This is the logic of the situation.
    So, within kaśmiri śaivism there is this Being's will or iccā śakti. It is one of the 5 śhaki's that are typically discussed in this school:
    • iccā śakti - the energy of will
    • cit śakti - the energy of consciousness
    • ananda sakti - the energy of joy ( some call bliss, yet I am not certain I can explain bliss based upon any personal experience)
    • jñāna śakti - the energy of knowledge
    • kriyā śakti - the energy of action.
    As mentioned above (post 1) , these śakti's are experienced by us in a limited way. They are also found within the sound forms of saskt. They reside within the 16 vowels ( even though 2 of them are not ~officially~ vowels ) we assign them to this category or grouping.

    There is a complete level of knowledge that is offered regarding all the sound forms found within the mātṛikācakra theory of the akara (sound, letters, phonemes of vowels and consonants) within saskt. They align to the 5 śakti's just mentioned and these align to the expulsion, the coming forth of creation that happens within śiva.
    It is the svara (vowels) and the vyañjana (consonants) that express all of creation. Why mention this ? Because we as humans sound out these svara (vowels) and the vyañjana (consonents) each and every day. From a to with the vowels and from ka to ha within the consonants.
    So , within the divine we find these 5 energies called out, and within the human condition we find them as part of our language set and the universe that we describe with the same sound forms.

    More on this in future posts if there is interest from the HDF community.
    • Supreme in kaśmiri śaivism is called paramaśiva; uccārarahitam vastu - that Reality ( vastu) devoid (rahitam) of utterance (ucāra)
    • āṇava - exceeding smallness = exceedingly small
    • svara – defined as sound; also a vowel, of which are grouped into 3 catagories :dīrgha , ‘long’ ; hrasva , ‘short’ ; pluta , ‘prolated’ ; they are aā i ī u ū ṛ ṝ ḷ ḹ e ai o au ṁ ḥ
    • mātṛikācakra - mātṛika = all , every kind of;mātṛikā according to abhinavagupa-ji are the ‘little mothers’ who are busy creating the universe.
      • See parātriṃśikā-vivaraṇa, by abhinavagupta-ji discussing mātṛikā & mālinī; these are 2 different pattern arrangements i.e. mixed vs. standard, of the akara-s found within saskt and this knowledge set of kaśmiri śaivism
    Last edited by yajvan; 21 November 2014 at 04:20 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  5. #5
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    Re: throttled down....

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    The ability or energy for the Supreme ( anuttara or unsurpassable) to throttle itself down into all the various forms we find in creation can be parsed out by the 36 tattva-s. In fact , even the tattva-s have a finer resolve one can look into . Just as atoms seem to be the finer level of matter, ' the last stop', one can go further into the sub-atomic particles and the energy that hold these atoms together. Like that, the tattva-s can also be sub divided for inspection.

    Yet the comment I hear often this this:
    Yes, this is all very interesting, but yajvan how does one bring out the micro-cosmic ( me) uniting once again with the macro-cosmic (anuttara) ? Some times this is addressed as kaukika siddhi or that which brings about this hamonizing quality between the limited once again becoming the limitless.

    In fact this one idea is a question posted to the Supreme ... the question is asked by śrī devī Herself to the Supreme (which too is Herself no less) and asks,
    how does the unsurpassable (anuttara) bring about immediately the identity of the limited being ( said as 'i' or lower case, limited individual) with the perfection of the Supreme ( sometimes called out as universal or 'I', capital I ), within this very limited body ?
    She asks, how does this occur while this limited being is walking, breathing on this earth, verses all the lofty ideas one may hear of what happens after death which (IMHO) is hard to confirm.
    A very practical question as I see it. I will offer the verse in the next post for those that have interest and point the reader to an existing HDF post that has discussed this in the past.

    iti śivaṁ
    Last edited by yajvan; 23 November 2014 at 01:48 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  6. #6
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    Re: throttled down....

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté
    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    I will offer the verse in the next post for those that have interest and point the reader to an existing HDF post that has discussed this in the past.
    śrī devī uvāca ( or śrī devī said)
    anuttaraṁ kathaṁ deva
    sadyaḥ kaukilasiddhidam
    khecarī-samatāṁ vrajet || 1

    Without a word-for-word translation ,this says:
    O'Lord how does the unsurpassable divine consciousness (anuttaraṁ) bring about immediately the identity of the empirical I ( or that 'i' of the human, in limits; some call ego)with the perfect 'I' of śiva ?

    This is the fundamental desire of the seeker - to be in samatā, (sameness) with the supreme... to move about (khecarī); to achieve (siddhi) this khecarī-samatāṁ.

    It is from this question that the parā-trīśikā vivaraṇa tantra knowledge unfolds. This tantra is offered by abhinavagupta-ji.

    A portion of this knowledge can be found on this HDF string; in most circles this wisdom would not be considered entry level reading, but is there for the discerning HDF reader http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3808


    iti śivaṁ
    Last edited by yajvan; 24 November 2014 at 04:38 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  7. #7

    Re: throttled down....

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    PArvati uvAcha : "O'Lord how does the unsurpassable divine consciousness (anuttaraṁ) bring about immediately the identity of the empirical I ( or that 'i' of the human, in limits; some call ego)with the perfect 'I' of śiva ?"


    This is the fundamental desire of the seeker - to be in samatā, (sameness) with the supreme... to move about (khecarī); to achieve (siddhi) this khecarī-samatāṁ.
    Namaste

    Thank you for the posts.

    I look at this as the perfect peace of a baby in the mother's arms. The baby knows she is in Mother's arms. This is the source of the peace -- provided purification and letting go of the ego is a stage that has been crossed.

    So the perfect I is achieved on the foundation of Mother's arms, while oblivious to their own (baby's) "svatva" -- i.e. lack of self-centeredness albeit peaceful in Mother's arms.

    Not necessarily thinking I alone am, and everything is my own extension. The baby is not necessarily thinking in that or any direction. The baby is not thinking, period. Just being -- as you say. There is no struggle for endeavours as such - out in the world. It is only acceptance of nature.

    This IMHO would be being without the 36 tattvas (or being without/beyond guNa).

    _/\_
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  8. #8
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    Re: throttled down....

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namaste

    What I find most interesting about the knowlege found in post 6 above is the following.
    We live in a world of comparisons and the relative value of qualities. That is, big is only compared to something that is small. Great is compared to least. Happy is compared to unhappy. So, due to this we find ourselves saying often ' that will be good enough' or ' that is close enough' for what one wants to achieve at the momment. Like washing the floor... one can look at it and say 'oh, that will do, it is clean enough'. Yet if someone looked at the floor from a critial level they would find that in fact the floor is quite dirty at a more microscopic level of germs and bacteria. So, is it really clean ?

    Within this line of thinking we look to the person wishing to re-call and re-align the self to the SELF; said above the 'i' of smallness becoming the infinite 'I' of the supreme, anuttara.
    In this arena good enough is not good enough. We are told even if one iota of ignorance remains within the individual it is still fully the contrary state of anuttara. This in comparsion is like saying: take one small-small grain of salt, 1/10th of one millimeter in diameter and place it in a clean massive fresh-water lake. That is enough to say that the full lake's quality is that of salt water. The one grain of salt ( ignorance) is enough to create the contrary state of anuttara ( of the Supreme) and keep one bound within the experiental state of the small self, the individual, the limited.

    Now that said, one needs to be mindful that as we get closer to the source of light, of purity, we in fact become purer and purer. It seems we can get right next to the light, bath in its brillance. This in and of itself has great benefits that changes the individual for all time. Yet, to be absorbed and become that light is the final unfoldment.

    Hence the gravity of the question śrī devī is asking to the Supreme.

    iti śivaṁ
    Last edited by yajvan; 23 December 2015 at 12:55 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  9. #9

    Re: throttled down....

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    Namaste

    Thank you for the posts.

    I look at this as the perfect peace of a baby in the mother's arms. The baby knows she is in Mother's arms. This is the source of the peace -- provided purification and letting go of the ego is a stage that has been crossed.

    So the perfect I is achieved on the foundation of Mother's arms, while oblivious to their own (baby's) "svatva" -- i.e. lack of self-centeredness albeit peaceful in Mother's arms.

    Not necessarily thinking I alone am, and everything is my own extension. The baby is not necessarily thinking in that or any direction. The baby is not thinking, period. Just being -- as you say. There is no struggle for endeavours as such - out in the world. It is only acceptance of nature.

    This IMHO would be being without the 36 tattvas (or being without/beyond guNa).

    _/\_
    Truly amazing post, Smaranam-ji. Bahut hi dhanyavaad.

    Trika in Kashmiri Shaivism imho has retained many essential elements of Arsha Dharma.

    On this level, if one ponders around it, it is day clear that Christianity's trinity is a brainchild of trika of K.Shaivism. Among all desert religions, it is therefore Christianity which thus safeguarded a bare minimum of polytheism (in the shape of trinity), and attracted better human consciousness in those regions and beyond.

    Though as contrasted with regular Shaivism - vis a vis the Cosmic Family of Shiva - I wonder what is the view of K.Shaivism.

    In the original home of Shaivism, that is TamilNadu, it is The Fourth One, i.e. Murugan, who gets all the primary focus. Is this element missing or ignored? It still could be normal because different branches of Hinduism have different focal points.

    When we speak of "throttling" and what I get from the posts in this thread is that the "movement" is hardly necessarily only from one particular direction to the other.

    A very simplistic view,( and also perhaps the best?), will be to see it as "the coming together of the Cosmic Family". Though I will still see Murugan as the most important deity among these.

    Different views, any chance can we come together? I hope at least Vedanta is out of scope in this thread on K.Shaivism.

    My pranama-s to the Bhakta-s of this sampradaya!

    KT
    Things to remember:

    1. Life = yajña
    2. Depth of Āstika knowledge is directly proportional
    to the richness of Sanskrit it is written in
    3. Āstika = Bhārata ("east") / Ārya ("west")
    4. Varṇa = tripartite division of Vedic polity
    5. r = c. x²
    where,
    r = realisation
    constant c = intelligence
    variable x = bhakti

  10. #10
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    Re: throttled down....

    namaste

    What then is the answer given ( see post 6 above) to this question posed to the supreme ( anuttara ) ?
    After laying a foundation to answer this question in several verses , the answer is given in verse 9 ans 10, and is expanded upon in 11 though 18.
    The supreme gives the answer in ~code~ by saying it is the 3rd brahma united with the 14th vowel and well joined with that which comes at the end of the lord of vowels.

    What could this mean ? There is an HDF post regarding this...
    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3808

    One could ask, why talk in code ? There's many reasons but will leave that for another time.

    iti siviam
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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