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Thread: Desireless action

  1. #21

    Re: Desireless action

    Dear Friends,
    Please see how beautiful this is ...
    when sri krishna says "you have a right over the action, but no control over the result" , its a statement of fact. Its like the law of gravity ... if you jump from the 6th floor, you will fall down. Its the law.
    Same way, if i do not have a control and define our happiness based on it .... its like taking an inevitable event and worry about it ! For example, the body grows old .. thats a law. if i do not understand that and try to keep the body young, i suffer.
    fire burns ... a law. i understand it and use it appropriately..
    if i do not understand and put my finger again and again in fire ?

    same way, i have control over what i have to do ... but the result is not in my hands ... its a simple law ... i understand and live by it. so i know that if i work hard for my exams , i am likely to get a good score, but there is no guarantee ... when i know this and dont fight with the law but use it appropriately, its wise living !

    This is not about desires at this point.

    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

  2. #22
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    Re: Desireless action

    Namaste Amrut,

    Quote Originally Posted by Amrut View Post
    Namaste,
    in akarma sthiti, the karma does not produce fruit. So there is neither suffering nor happiness, hence there is no further stimulation to do any karma based on the earlier karma. So there is no rebirth.
    Hari OM
    I did not know that.

    When I think of अक्रम, I think of 'not' karma so in other words if karma is action, a-karma is non-action. Krishna says there is no such thing is my understanding. You cannot have non-action or akarma. I looked up the word in a Sanskrit dictionary and its meaning is not as you have outlined above. But that doesn't make it wrong just different.

    Thanks for the post.
    satay

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    Re: Desireless action

    Namaste WM,

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post

    * - one possibly needs to differentiate different types of desire. Are there certain permissible desires (such as the desire to attain moksha) and certain impermissible desires (such as the desire for excessive wealth and sense pleasures)?
    This must be rhetorical question.

    Even the brahmasutra start with 'athato brahma jijnasa'. If the 'jijnasa' is not there, the discovery will not start. So the 'desire' to 'act' must be there. Krishna warns against desire for 'results'. You have no right over the results. Just act and do and that too within your own dharma 'svadharma' is the suggestion from him.

    Just my 2 cents.
    satay

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    Re: Desireless action

    Namaste
    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    When I think of अक्रम, I think of 'not' karma so in other words if karma is action, a-karma is non-action. Krishna says there is no such thing is my understanding. You cannot have non-action or akarma. I looked up the word in a Sanskrit dictionary and its meaning is not as you have outlined above. But that doesn't make it wrong just different.
    Lord Krishna used the word akarma in the Bhagavad gita 4.18 (http://vedabase.net/bg/4/18/): karmaṇy akarma yaḥ paśyed akarmaṇi ca karma yaḥ


    regards

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    Re: Desireless action

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    Namaste Amrut,

    I did not know that.

    When I think of अक्रम, I think of 'not' karma so in other words if karma is action, a-karma is non-action. Krishna says there is no such thing is my understanding. You cannot have non-action or akarma. I looked up the word in a Sanskrit dictionary and its meaning is not as you have outlined above. But that doesn't make it wrong just different.

    Thanks for the post.
    (sorry, I did not get any email notification, hence the delay)

    Namaste Satay ji,

    It is not akrama (अक्रम) it is akarma (अकर्म).

    a-karma is inaction. Please refer to meaning of spokensanskrit.de

    http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?t...on=SE&link=yes

    अकर्मन् = inaction

    ---------

    See, action produces a fruit only when there is attachment with what you do. When jIva enlightens mind and mind tunes with senses, then everything is sakAma. But when one is detached, as is an observer, then who does the action.

    The doer has to suffer/enjoy (bhoga) fruits, but when there is no doer, then who is the bhoktA of fruits. You cannot be a witness and a doer at the same time.

    ----------

    First one has to become internally pure by doing action. Then take up the path of renunciation i.e. karma-tyAga. Intermediate path is to work without expectations. In GYAna mArga, there is a strong desire to attain moksha. Moksha is also a desire. But with the help of this desire, all other desires are up-rooted. then this desire is also renounced. What is left is pure eternal state of consciousness.

    Sri Ramana Maharshi gave an example:

    Just like a fire burning the corpse extinguishes by itself (and does not continue) after the corpse is burned, so is the thought of Self Enquiry dissolve in the source.

    Another e.g.

    Just like kapur (camphor), after cleaning the water sinks and does not float, in the same way the thought of self enquiry does not retain or continue after all other thoughts die.

    Kapur attracts mud particles and becomes heavy. So when one circulates kapur after accumulating the mud on itself i.e. cleaning water, it itself settles down at bottom.

    ----

    karma is jaDa (gross), it cannot produce fruit upon itself. It is mind which attaches itself to any karma and makes an opinion. When one is witness, one can even witness the mind (which is nothing but continuous flow of thoughts), then where is the question of an observer (witness), to be attached to mind or the 'I' sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by brahma jijnasa View Post
    Namaste


    Lord Krishna used the word akarma in the Bhagavad gita 4.18 (http://vedabase.net/bg/4/18/): karmaṇy akarma yaḥ paśyed akarmaṇi ca karma yaḥ


    regards
    Nice catch BJ Jai Shri Krishna

    OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: Desireless action

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    Namaste WM,

    This must be rhetorical question.

    Even the brahmasutra start with 'athato brahma jijnasa'. If the 'jijnasa' is not there, the discovery will not start. So the 'desire' to 'act' must be there. Krishna warns against desire for 'results'. You have no right over the results. Just act and do and that too within your own dharma 'svadharma' is the suggestion from him.

    Just my 2 cents.
    Namaste,

    Much is explained earlier, please refer arjuna last verse

    अर्जुन उवाच
    नष्टो मोहः स्मृतिर्लब्धा त्वत्प्रसादान्मयाच्युत।
    स्थितोऽस्मि गतसन्देहः करिष्ये वचनं तव।।18.73।।

    18.73 Arjuna said -- O Acyuta, (my) delusion has been destroyed and memory has been regained by me through Your grace. I stand with my doubt removed; I shall follow Your instruction.

    Here there is no commitment to either 'act' or 'not to act'. Arjun says, I will do as you say. So if you say, 'fight' I will fight, if you say, 'do not fight', I will not fight.

    Moha is attachment. and it is not destroyed by only his own effort. It is only destroyed by grace of God. Retaining memory means to regain the knowledge about true nature.

    OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  7. #27
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    Re: Desireless action

    Namaste,


    Quote Originally Posted by Amrut View Post
    Here there is no commitment to either 'act' or 'not to act'. Arjun says, I will do as you say. So if you say, 'fight' I will fight, if you say, 'do not fight', I will not fight.

    Moha is attachment. and it is not destroyed by only his own effort. It is only destroyed by grace of God. Retaining memory means to regain the knowledge about true nature.

    OM
    I am not sure if that's what is meant by "I shall follow your instruction." Krishna gave a lot of instructions and explanations from start till this verse. I think Arjuna is now at a stage where he realizes , 'ah, I see. I will do my dharma. I have no doubt about that. I will perform my svadharma.'

    It's not that he will do what Lord tells him to do. In fact, Krishna actually does not tell him to do anything. He just provides suggestions and leaves it up to Arjuna to decide in the end. That's where the 'free will' or svatantrata (marginal as it might be) of jiva comes in.

    God is not going to decide for him if he should fight or not. He is just saying arjuna you should possible consider fighting because that is 'your dharma', perform svadharma.

    My simple understanding.
    satay

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    Re: Desireless action

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    Namaste,


    I am not sure if that's what is meant by "I shall follow your instruction." Krishna gave a lot of instructions and explanations from start till this verse. I think Arjuna is now at a stage where he realizes , 'ah, I see. I will do my dharma. I have no doubt about that. I will perform my svadharma.'

    It's not that he will do what Lord tells him to do. In fact, Krishna actually does not tell him to do anything. He just provides suggestions and leaves it up to Arjuna to decide in the end. That's where the 'free will' or svatantrata (marginal as it might be) of jiva comes in.

    God is not going to decide for him if he should fight or not. He is just saying arjuna you should possible consider fighting because that is 'your dharma', perform svadharma.

    My simple understanding.
    Namaste,

    I agree with you, but not completely.

    God never 'orders' anyone. He does not force anyone. God shows you two ways.

    Krisna gave instructions that suited Arjuna. since Arjuna was a representative of all seekers so some questions were put into his mouth for the good of all. Adi Sankara says this in his Gita commentary but I am not able to find exact verse.

    My understanding says, 'I shall follow your instructions' means being neutral to likes and dislikes. This means being neutral to moha. Arjuna didn't fight because of attachment. He was also worrying about consequences after fight and what people will think.

    Kshatriya was a svadharma of Arjuna and earlier he had fought his Guru Drona while rescuing cows.

    One can only be neutral if one remains detached.

    Lets talk practically. If you do not have desire to do a particular work, will you do that work?

    Generally people do not bother to do work in which they have no interest.

    If there is vairagya and one sees this world as adobe of sorrows, understands that nothing is permanent AND has experienced love of God, then it is like tiger tasting blood Such person will not be inclined to do work. He will not take any new initiative. Life just rolls on.

    On the other hand, his interest in chanting God's name increases, hence his main focus in life will be to chant God's name.

    You do not attend a party or a social function because you prefer chanting God's name.

    There are two things

    Dispassion
    Inclination towards God

    As I have said, one cannot be a witness and at the same time act. This feeling and state of mind is something difficult to explain, but I can say that such person experiences deep peace and bliss.

    So on a path that up-roots desires, will you keep adding new desires and thoughts? You will just finish the 'unfinished business' - prarabhdha , as it is like a push given to you in your past life. Until the force nullifies, you have not option but to keep rolling

    OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: Desireless action

    Namaste Satay and Amrut,

    Let's revisit Bhagwad Gita verses 18.59 and 18.60, 18.63 and 18.73 and see what it offers :

    18.59 and 18.60 :

    If by taking your stand based on egoism, you think, "I will not fight", your this resolve is in vain as your nature will drive you to the act." That action too which you are unwilling to undertake due to your delusion, you will perforce perform bound by your own duty born of your nature."

    18.63 :

    This highly confidential knowledge has been imparted to you by me, now do as you wish to do.



    18.73

    By your grace, my delusion is destroyed and I have gained wisdom and I am free of doubts. I shall act as per your wishes.


    .....

    So, what is the message ? Arjuna has no choice whether to fight or not. He must fight as it is destined for him. It is fixed as per his guna and karma with which he is born. He has only two choices in real sense :

    a) Fight with attachment to the result of the war
    b) Fight remaining non-attached to the result of war.

    By selecting first choice, he suffers the fruits of karma and by selecting the second he gets liberated. Now, as he says in 18.73, his delusion is destroyed on getting Gita-gyaan from Lord Krishna and therefore, he will fight with non-attachment to the results of war as God has advised him.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Desireless action

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste Satay and Amrut,

    Let's revisit Bhagwad Gita verses 18.59 and 18.60, 18.63 and 18.73 and see what it offers :

    18.59 and 18.60 :

    If by taking your stand based on egoism, you think, "I will not fight", your this resolve is in vain as your nature will drive you to the act." That action too which you are unwilling to undertake due to your delusion, you will perforce perform bound by your own duty born of your nature."

    18.63 :

    This highly confidential knowledge has been imparted to you by me, now do as you wish to do.



    18.73

    By your grace, my delusion is destroyed and I have gained wisdom and I am free of doubts. I shall act as per your wishes.


    .....

    So, what is the message ? Arjuna has no choice whether to fight or not. He must fight as it is destined for him. It is fixed as per his guna and karma with which he is born. He has only two choices in real sense :

    a) Fight with attachment to the result of the war
    b) Fight remaining non-attached to the result of war.

    By selecting first choice, he suffers the fruits of karma and by selecting the second he gets liberated. Now, as he says in 18.73, his delusion is destroyed on getting Gita-gyaan from Lord Krishna and therefore, he will fight with non-attachment to the results of war as God has advised him.

    OM
    Namaste Devotee ji,

    Was this fight a prarabhdha or a personal choice?

    18.63 :

    This highly confidential knowledge has been imparted to you by me, now do as you wish to do.

    18.62 Take refuge in Him alone with your whole being, O scion of the Bharata dynasty. Through His grace you will attain the supreme Peace and the eternal Abode.

    Can fight give peace?

    OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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