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    Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Namaste everyone,
    In another thread titled "does not exist..." under Science and Religion section, one of the honorable HDF members claimed that in the Bhagavad Gita Sri Krishna himself tells that varna is based on birth. So i took the liberty of starting a new thread in order to refute the claims. The moderator can remove this thread if it violates any rules since the thread being referred is under admin review.
    here is the actual quote
    "Quote: Sanjaya said
    Secondly, I believe that your portrayal of the Hindu varna system is not accurate.

    Nara replied:
    It is here that I think I am on most firm ground. The Moguls are not to blame. The English are not to blame. Hindus, and the upper caste in particular, have to stand up and take responsibility and make amends.

    Lord Sri Krishna in Srimat BG, with what he said and what he did not say, clearly indicates Varna is inherited by birth. Among Arjuna’s fears was that the war will result in the women being unprotected and consequently get raped, which will then result in Varna sangraha. Arjuna cites clan elders as the source of his views.

    So, this was the prevalent thinking at that time, namely, if women get raped, varna sangharaha will result. This can be so only if Varna results from birth. In the succeeding 17 chapters, Lord Sri Krishna gives answers to many of Arjuna’s questions, never once does he dissuade him of this view. But Lord Sri Krishna goes even further. In chapter 9, he says, even the ones of sinful birth, such as vaishya, sudra and women, can attain moksham by surrendering to him, so surely Arjuna of punya birth certainly can. So, Lord Sri Krishna clearly teaches that Varna results from birth which itself is determined by punya and papa.

    So, if BG is to be believed, then for Lord Sri Krishna, varana is birth based. If you visit kamakoti.org, there is a full chapter on this question affirming that varna/jati is based strictly on birth. This is a core value of the Vedic religion that we call Hinduism today.

    If you look at scientific evidence gleaned from archeology, DNA, etc. it is clear that there is no pure varna, everything is mixed up. As you say, there have been movements across the varna lines. But that is science. Religious doctrine requires birth based Varna purity and an elaborate scheme of punishments are stipulated for transgressors. Further, the present day keepers of Brahmin orthodoxy still maintain they can trace their pure genealogy back to the vedic rishees. What this shows, I leave it to you.
    "
    The actual verse where Sri Krishna speaks about the Varnashrama is Chapter 4 verse 13 which states

    "cātur-varṇyaḿ mayā sṛṣṭaḿ
    guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ
    tasya kartāram api māḿ
    viddhy akartāram avyayam
    "
    translation
    "According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable."

    Here clearly Sri Krishna states the principle of the varna system which is based totally on guna(modes) and Karma.
    Nowhere has Sri Krishna mentioned the word janana(birth).

    "It is here that I think I am on most firm ground.
    Lord Sri Krishna in Srimat BG, with what he said and what he did not say, clearly indicates Varna is inherited by birth.
    So, if BG is to be believed, then for Lord Sri Krishna, varana is birth based"
    I think this verse is enough to refute all the above claims. please feel free to refute in case anyone thinks the above verse does not convey what it already has.

    meaning of the Sanskrit words
    cātuḥ-varṇyam — the four divisions of human society; mayā — by Me; sṛṣṭam — created; guṇa — of quality; karma — and work; vibhāgaśaḥin terms of division; tasya — of that; kartāram — the Creator; api — although; māmMe; viddhi — you may know; akartāramas the nondoer; avyayam — unchangeable.

    Best Regards,
    mukunda

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Namaste Mukunda,

    Thanks for the verse's reality.

    There are other verses too which show that Varna is based on Guna and Karma and not by birth :

    The Brahmin should have these gunas by nature :

    Shamo damstapah shaucham kshaantirarjavameva cha |
    Jnaanam vijnaanamaastikyam brahmakarma swabhawjam || 18. 42 ||

    The Kshtriya should have these :

    Shauryam tejo dhritirdaakshyam yuddhe chaapypalaayanam |
    daanamishwarbhaavascha khsaatram karma svabhaavajam || 18.43 ||

    The Vaishya and Shudras should have these gunas by nature :

    krishigaurkshyavaaNijyam vaishyakarma swabhaavjam |
    paricharyaatmakam karma shudrasyaapi svabhaavajam || 18. 44 ||

    000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

    Lord Krishna nowhere says that varna is decided by birth alone. Though the birth to a particular family, place & culture is certainly decided by one's karma in his previous birth, but varna depends basically on guna and karma & thus can change depending upon his Guna and Karma in this birth.

    Verses in Chapter 1 were spoken by Arjuna & not by Lord Krishna. Verse 9.32 doesn't say that the varna is by birth !

    OM
    Last edited by devotee; 19 March 2010 at 07:27 AM. Reason: correction in verse no
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  3. #3

    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding


    But Lord Sri Krishna goes even further. In chapter 9, he says, even the ones of sinful birth, such as vaishya, sudra and women, can attain moksham by surrendering to him
    OM
    Dandvats
    He doesnt say women sudra and vaishya are sinful births he seperates them as different classes eg sinful birth, vaishy, sudra, women.

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Pranam devotee

    I have been down this route quite a lot, so I try and be brief.

    Perhaps you can tell us all at what age the training of a child in their respective varna should begin?

    With your perception there is a possibility of all 4 varna in theory, in one single family, assuming you know that in olden days there were different quarters for each varna, remnants off which you would still find in the villages or even a big town. So how do you separate the family?

    Arjun’s fear of Varna Shankar and consequently kula dharma degradation would be point less since you wan’t be able to establish what tradition that could be, because by your reckoning it could be any one of the four.
    But we know his tradition is kshatriya class. how is that possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee
    but varna depends basically on guna and karma & thus can change depending upon his Guna and Karma in this birth.
    But then this would be in direct conflict with what Lord Krishna say
    It is better to engage in one's own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another's occupation and perform it perfectly.

    You are proposing a change can happen yet Krishna is against it.

    Who can perfectly judge the varna of an individual thus my opening question to you?

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Namaste GP ji,

    I think we have already discussed this issue once & I couldn't convince you. So, going again the same way is not going to result in anything better.

    I won't say that you are wrong and I alone am right in interpretation of verses. However, if you see the verses in the light of the basic expectations from God, you may get to know why I interpret the way I do :

    a) When we talk of Karma, we tend to think of Karma of the past alone. My Guru ji says that this thinking is not correct. Your present Karmas are not less valuable than your past karmas. The Karma of this life can offset the Karma of our previous lives.

    The above has a logical side also. If the above is not true then it paints a grim and hopeless picture for the present life. My Guru ji says that it is not the case.

    b) If Varna by birth theory was correct then you would not have found people sometimes even more intelligent and pious in a so-called lower caste than in a brahmin by birth. Similarly, then all Brahmins must have been born with the Gunas & nature as told by Lord Krishna in Chapter 18 of BG.

    We know that it is not so.

    c) Lord Krishna says that people should do the karma which is natural to their nature .... so, it must be natural to the nature of the man irrespective of his birth ? I have not seen that the birth in a particular caste decides one's nature and guna.

    d) Yes, Arjuna does mention about Varnashankara being born out of women who would get spoiled after war. But again, it can be seen in the manner I see it. If there is no control on sex then the birth of a child would not be due to marriage of a man & woman of the same varna (i.e. same guna, karma and nature) but just a result of lust without matching qualities of a man & woman for marriage. So, such a child is certainly varnashankara. We can expect that the children born would also learn similar traits from their parents & that would be painful to everyone including their ancestors.

    This can be seen in western society ... how much restlessness has it produced for people who follow such a lifestyle.

    e) The great saints in Hindu society have embraced people from all castes. There are many saints who were not born to brahmin parents like Saint Ravidas, Kabir etc.

    Again, these are solely my views & I am firm on this. Right from my childhood, I never differentiated people on the basis of castes and had a close friend too who was from so-called untouchable caste. I got scolded by my parents many a times on this account ... but I was like that. In fact, the biggest hurdle for me to accept BG as divine word of God was these verses which bothered me a lot. I could find my peace only when I translated them in the manner I explained to you.

    So, there is nothing which can change my views. You may have your own interpretation ... & still we can be friends.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Pranam devotee ji

    Nice explanation of your understanding and I respect that
    Why should frendship be questioned just because we have different views on Varna?

    So, there is nothing which can change my views. You may have your own interpretation ... & still we can be friends.
     
    In this circumstances there is no need for further discussion.
    Yes you have made a nice plea for your understanding and I respect that, unfortunately my questioned that I had asked remains unanswered.

    There is only one question that was posed by you which I shall try my best to answer

    b) If Varna by birth theory was correct then you would not have found people sometimes even more intelligent and pious in a so-called lower caste than in a brahmin by birth. Similarly, then all Brahmins must have been born with the Gunas & nature as told by Lord Krishna in Chapter 18 of BG.

    We know that it is not so.
     
     
    The lofty ideals that Lord Shree Krishna mentioned in BG are what one has to cultivate but if you think anyone has imbibed all of it in 100% then you will find none would qualify for that post.

    After taking such a birth, O Arjuna, one regains the knowledge acquired in the previous life, and strives again to achieve perfection. (6.43)

    Birth affords the only measurable prerequisite for determining how a child should be trained. There is no other authority to determine the varna, your proposal is very subjective.

    A Brahmin is accorded a great deal of respect as per our dharma-Shastra, but those same dharma-Shastra place extremely high expectations on him. He can't fulfil those expectations if he is not raised as a Brahmin from birth, which means having Brahmin parents who can also lead by example. Yet if we fail and that is great possibility in this degraded age, again the karma will determine our next birth and there is no guarantee it will be human.

    The highest knowledge of saMnyAsAshrama declares that all men are equal in the eye of god, and that varNa, Ashrama, and ultimately even dharma, are superfluous constructs. But this esoteric wisdom has unfortunately become exoteric dogma in some non-brAhmaNa circles, and the dismissal of varNAshrama dharma is especially favored by aspirants who were born without dvija varNa (by our own Sarbhnga)

    I will leave you with two example for you to contemplate. One Drona who had great Kshtriya skill and other BhismaPita a great Kshtriya but had wisdom better then most yet Dronacharya is a Brahmin and Bhismapita is Kshtriya, neither saw any reason to be known by their vocation but their birth was and is their Pahechan or identity.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~


    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by mukunda20 View Post
    translation
    "According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable."
    I have little to contribute to this string, but thought to add the following from a past post:

    Kṛṣṇa also tells us in the Bhāgavad gītā that at the core of the 4 fold order or division of society (cātur-varṇyaṁ) is based upon the 3 guṇa-s. That varṇa is the following: brahmaṇa-s, kṣatriya-s, vaiśya-s, and śudra-s.
    One must ask if there are 3 guṇa-s how do you get 4 varṇa? It is based on the 3 guṇa-s primary and secondary combinations. We needn't go to the tertiary or 3rd level because if the 1st and 2nd levels are not possible, the 3 level will not matter.

    1. Sattva as primary and rajas as secondary
    2. Sattva as primary and tamas as secondary

    3. Rajas as primary and sattva as secondary
    4. Rajas as primary and tamas as secondary

    5. Tamas as primary and sattva as secondary
    6. Tamas as primary and rajas as secondary

    Note that the 2nd and 5th combinations are not possible due to the drastic contrast of sattva and tamas. This leaves us with 4 possible varṇa that align this way:
    • brahmaṇa-s : Sattva as primary and rajas as secondary
    • kṣatriya-s : Rajas as primary and sattva as seconday
    • vaiśya-s : Rajas as primary and tamas as secondary
    • śudra-s : Tamas as primary and rajas as secondary
    I will assume there is a general knowledge of brahmaṇa-s, kṣatriya-s, vaiśya-s, and śudra-s and what they do, their roles in society and the like.

    pranams
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #8

    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Namaste Yajvanji and everyone,
    thanks for valuable information.
    One interesting point to note here is that before Sri Krishna introduces how He has created the Varnas based on nature of Gunas and Karma(chapter 4), He indicates that the ultimate goal of anyone is to transcend above the three Gunas itself in the sloka of Chapter 2- verse 45

    trai-gunya-visaya veda
    nistraigunyo bhavarjuna
    nirdvandvo nitya-sattva-stho
    niryoga-ksema atmavan
    trai-gunya--pertaining to the three modes of material nature; visayah--on the subject matter; vedah--Vedic literatures; nistraigunyah--in a pure state of spiritual existence; bhava--be; arjuna--O Arjuna; nirdvandvah--free from the pains of opposites; nitya-sattva-sthah--ever remaining in sattva (goodness); niryoga-ksemah--free from (the thought of) acquisition and preservation; atma-van--established in the self.

    It feels very simple while listening to Sri Krishna explaining it.

    Best Regards,
    mukunda


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    Re: Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by mukunda20 View Post
    "
    The actual verse where Sri Krishna speaks about the Varnashrama is Chapter 4 verse 13 which states

    "cātur-varṇyaḿ mayā sṛṣṭaḿ
    guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ
    tasya kartāram api māḿ
    viddhy akartāram avyayam
    "
    translation
    "According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable."
    Namaste All,

    That has always been the point.

    Although, Atman is akartāram avyayam, the varNa is always in the realm of guna-karma, which is the world of birth and death. There is no way that these four basic divisions will ever be missing in any place and at any time. And the basic divisions cannot come up in the world on their own unless people are born with 4 basic traits. Has anyone ever taken birth without inborn traits, instincts, and capabilities, in short without a genetic makeup?


    Let us go above the emotions and analyse whether a particular birth is in control of a common person or is in the hand of Ishwara? We dont have any way to create the genetic makeup that we are born with. But we do not appear to believe in shastra that it is mental gunas that only create conditions for repeated birth, and we have ways also to purify the guna composition, though prescribed work. What will one choose? Being born with a genetic makeup that one cannot control or being born with a guna makeup that one can improve through prescribed work and get a better birth or become birth free?

    If we think that there is a blot in varNa system, then we must find the blot in Ishwara -- and that we have to agree is out of question. And has anyone ever said that "the understanding of Genes" is a blot? Whereas, the understanding of genes is so incomplete; in a dead body, the genes are as dead as the dead body -- but yet we (Shri Nara actually) say that genes are all that there is.

    In Behavioural science a debate rages on, without resolution, whether the environment or the genetic makeup make a man? But in guna-karma-vArNa we already have an answer and practical guidance to get rid of the adversities.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 29 March 2010 at 08:46 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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