Basic questions on Vaishnavism

[hinduism♥krishna]

Namaste,

In this connection, the Brahma Sutra says those who considers atma and bramhan different have all the glory of God to enjoy but they do not become the bramhan.


If you are not one with God, you maintain a distance from God even at that height of achievement.
Then, what will be your future?! How long will you be in Vaikuntha-Loka, Kailasa, Brahma-Loka or the Heaven where God abides? How long will you stay there? To be in that condition will be to enjoy the contemplation of the Infinite but not to become the Infinite. You have the happiness of contemplating the Infinite but you cannot become the Infinite and do what the Infinite can do. This is a peculiar aphorism in the Brahma Sutra.But dvaitian vaishnawas constantly claims that you can not become bramhan.

If you cannot become infinite bramhan , you will be finite again; if you are finite, then you have to return, having not attained moksha.

[Amrut]

Namaste,

As per VA there is no jivan mukti (and I bet as per all Vaishnava sampradayas), only sthitha pragnya. As long as there is karma one is there in this world with this body and all its imperfections.

Ohh, no Jivan Mukti !!! Ok. Got it. how do you define a sthita Pragya. Should I check Ramanuja Bhashya of the relevant verses, or there is some more info in independent compositions.

Bhagavan in Gita talks about moksha. What kind of moksha or mukti do Vaishnava-s take into account, as Bhagavan himself has not clarified. Is this sampradAya specific?

I am not sure I understand this. But a muktAtma takes up a body of shuddha sattva after dropping both gross and subtle bodies, if it wants. In Brahma sutras there is a discussion on what body does it take during its travel to moksha. The conclusion is that the liberated soul can have a body or not or choose to have many many bodies as a leela.

What I meant is that - According to VA or any Vaishnava sampradAya, is the physical body considered as real?

Body perishes and finally transforms into ash or decomposes into panch mahAbhUta-s.

Since this is a friendly conversation, I do not press for pramANa-s. However if they are provided, they will be an asset, but do not provide if it is time consuming. Simple answers are more than enough.

What is the definition of the word 'Real'. Is it Eternal?

Are other 4 kosha-s considered as real?

The general understanding is that shAstrAs provide pramANA for something that is beyond the understanding of the limited mind/senses. I am sure Alvars have described Jivatmas somewhere. Acharyas have also described Atma as being aNu, not necessarily point of light. The experience of Alwars is a pramANA for us but the Acharyas have also proved that their experience does not contradict the shAstrAs. What I mean to say is that shAstrAs is the ultimate reference for Vaishnavas and not individual experience.

I agree that for what is physically visible, no pramANa is necessary.

If shastra-s describe a state, then it is considered as an authority, which should not be questioned. All agree with this. However, there must be someone who must have experienced the essence of shastra-s. My question is - are you aware of anyone who have experienced themselves as per definition of Jiva in Sv. Up 5.9

V-9:That individual soul is as subtle as a hairpoint divided and sub-divided hundreds of times. Yet he is potentially infinite. He has to be known.

I have seen Gaudiya VAishnava-s skip the second part. Lets be safe. Lets take first part

V-9:That individual soul is as subtle as a hairpoint divided and sub-divided hundreds of times ...

Has someone experienced themselves as such.

OR

Has someone been able to describe any of the description given of Jiva.

If VAishnava acharyas have written about jiva and their concepts, then they must have experienced it themselves. It just cannot be mere philosophy. If they have experienced all about jivahood, Vaikuntha, part and whole experience then this experience has to be reflected in their commentaries, teachings or independent compositions. Grammar is not a substitute for experience. After all, my common sense says, truth has to be experienced. That should also be reflected.

e.g. Meera bai should be able to see Krishna as person and should also enter into trance singing his glories. This is reflected in her songs.

I thought of Alvars, as they are dipped in bhakti. Again, a poet has not doctrine to defend. He/she can add the poetic beauty to all his / her experience and pen down what overflows from their heart. They are not bound by anything when expressing their feelings and their experience. It is their vishuddha ahetuki bhakti (purified, unconditional bhakti with no vested interest), that their songs and poems are soul lifting.

Vaikuntha in essence has been understood to be an eternal indestructible abode where there is no time, space etc. In Purusha Suktham is also described the immortal world of the Purusha that is 3/4th. Obviously no one can describe such a world very well. The tragedy also is that those who go to Vaikuntha do not come back and shAstrAs is all that we got. Brahma Sutras also say that a mukthAtma can choose to see his ancestors if he wishes to. No one wished to see me so far

I understand Vaikuntha is eternal and indestructible.

However I am confused as there is no time and space. Does it mean that it is beyond time and space. Can a jiva, who is always bound by time and space actually cross these boundaries.

What I have seen is that in all philosophies, there are 2 identities

1. Independent
2. Dependent

My intention behind asking questions is to better understand the concepts, so that while interacting with Vaishnava-s I can better understand them.

Maybe your future generations could wish to see you, if he becomes a mukta. You mentioned ancestors

Please take your time to reply. There is no hurry

Aum

[jignyAsu]

I just want to know the reason behind the assumption that 'I am Jiva'. If you point to shastra-s that say 'I am Jiva', then why am I not experiencing who I am? I understand that I am trapped in mAyA, which is real, but still I know that I am Jiva, who is bound by the Lord's mAyA. Why I do not experience myself as Jiva and why I experience myself as body?

The faith in shAstrA is a foremost requirement for a Vaishnava and that is not blind at all considering its long standing credibility. The reason why most do not experience truth is because we are enveloped by the real anjnyAna cause by our karmas. When we follow the shAstras, slowly ajnyAnas gets removed and we gain more and more experience of these truths.

Knowing that one is jiva is very easily inferable by focusing on I and mine. When we say "my house", "my wife" it clearly implies that we are different. consequently, when we extend it to say - "my hand", "my thought", "my memory" we can know that we are different from these.

When we say - I was conscious of that object before and now I am not - its an observer that is distinct from consciousness and the object. Infact, we are able to record different states of consciousness in memory only because we are different from consciousness and the objects. Also, when we get up in the morning and say that "I" wasn't aware of anything during sleep, it means the "I" existed all along. So, we say that the jivatma can be easily inferred. Then what is ego? When we say that I am a king, I am a beggar or I am a brahmin or this is my wife etc then it is a ego.

If we can infer the above, then why do we need shAstrAs? To give us the true nature of Jivatma - This atma cannot be burnt, cut or wetted, There was no point in time you were not and no point in time you will cease to be etc.

This is also true wrt to Paramatma. Vast majority doubt His existence but this is only because of their ajnyAna. We can infer an intelligent designer easily seeing the complexity of this world. But why do we need the shAstrAs? To know His guNAs in truth - His infinite compassion, power etc.

When ajnyAnA is destroyed, they clearly realize all this and don't have to rely on Vedic wisdom anymore.

[Amrut]

Thank you, HLK. Then I think teachings of VA (as jignyAsu ji points out) is different from that of Advaita Vaishnavism (of Smarta sect) as in VA, one cannot attain oneness with Brahman. But, it is good to know a different school of thought. Well, I have to say, the smarta way of thinking atleast eliminates one question I had always in my mind - what is the future of mukta jeevatmas? I even used to think at some point in the vast infinity of time they do get to become the deity they worshiped themselves -- the smarta Vaishnavism concept seems to point to this. Thanks again.

Namaste Viraja di,

In simple terms, smArta-s are the ones who do karma kand, but later on move ahead with Jnana marg. Vishnu Tatva, Shiva Tatva, Param Padam, etc are all states of consciousness as per advaita.

However, if you do not move on to next ashram, and continue karma kand, then you may attain adobe of chosen deity, as fruit of your karma. Here adobe means a place, Kailash, Vaikuntha. As karma is not the end, agama-s are more related to temple worship and are supplementary to veda-s (as per my understanding), then a time comes, when a smArta acquire sufficient inner purity because of his karma kand procedures, they move on to sanyAsa ashram, which will be Jnana marg. However their love of their chosen deity may not diminish. We have Madhusudan Sarasvati (Krishna Bhakta and an Advaitin), and Appaya Dikshita (Shiva Bhakta and an Advaitin).

Let me give you a link to what Suta Samhita (commented by Vidyaranya Swami) says.

P.S. HLK is not following Adi Shankara or smArta. He follows ant Dyaneshvar and Sant Eknath. They were great saints. Sant Dyaneshavar made a buffalo sing bhAgavat PurANa. He is very popular in Maharashtra. Eknath bhAgavat is also available.

Aum

[Amrut]

The faith in shAstrA is a foremost requirement for a Vaishnava and that is not blind at all considering its long standing credibility. The reason why most do not experience truth is because we are enveloped by the real anjnyAna cause by our karmas. When we follow the shAstras, slowly ajnyAnas gets removed and we gain more and more experience of these truths.

Knowing that one is jiva is very easily inferable by focusing on I and mine. When we say "my house", "my wife" it clearly implies that we are different. consequently, when we extend it to say - "my hand", "my thought", "my memory" we can know that we are different from these.

When we say - I was conscious of that object before and now I am not - its an observer that is distinct from consciousness and the object. Infact, we are able to record different states of consciousness in memory only because we are different from consciousness and the objects. Also, when we get up in the morning and say that "I" wasn't aware of anything during sleep, it means the "I" existed all along. So, we say that the jivatma can be easily inferred. Then what is ego? When we say that I am a king, I am a beggar or I am a brahmin or this is my wife etc then it is a ego.

If we can infer the above, then why do we need shAstrAs? To give us the true nature of Jivatma - This atma cannot be burnt, cut or wetted, There was no point in time you were not and no point in time you will cease to be etc.

This is also true wrt to Paramatma. Vast majority doubt His existence but this is only because of their ajnyAna. We can infer an intelligent designer easily seeing the complexity of this world. But why do we need the shAstrAs? To know His guNAs in truth - His infinite compassion, power etc.

When ajnyAnA is destroyed, they clearly realize all this and don't have to rely on Vedic wisdom anymore.

I fully agree with you that first there has to be faith. The reward of faith is experience.

In words of Swami Chinmaya:

Faith is, `To believe what you do not see', the reward of which is, `you see what you believed'.

So when when I say, 'I am Jiva' does it mean that 'I am the knower of Jiva' or 'I know that I am Jiva'. Who is this 'I' that know 'Jiva? Is it separate form Jvia can an eye see itself. It can only see what is different and apart from it.

We can put same argument for 'I am Brahman'. But technically, Brahman is indescribable. Also as per advaita, Brahman is not to be experienced separately. After separation of 'I' from what is not 'I', what remains is just 'Brahman' - pure consciousness. This is what I have been doing since a long time, via OM. OM separates 'I' from non-self and establishes 'I' in it's source.

Is Jiva describable?

Please take you time to reply these questions. There is no hurry.

Sometimes, we may not get answers when we specifically search for them, but one day, we may stumble upon some lines that give answer to our question. Till then we will have to wait.

Aum

[hinduism♥krishna]

Namaste ,

It is said that He who performs actions according to the systems postulated in Vedas by vishnu , will reach him either in a form or image or in an abstract power as is his liking.

But there is a mention about direct personal experiencing of God as a form, a living being.
This opinion is of the Pancharatra Agama. Those who embrace that opinion think that Vaikuntha is the highest place.
Now please note that in Vedanta the Lord has said that Vaikuntha was created by him outside the seven covers or planes of Maya but within the field of Maya.

There it is mentioned that Maya is a sport of the God and by that sport he has created Vaikuntha and therefore Vaikuntha is not perishable.Where Purshottma whose colour is like that of a cloud resides in a body which is created by his own will through his own Maya, there Guna Time Karma and Maya, being all only illusions cannot remain.

the opinion of Agama is that Vaikuntha is eternal and non-destructible and there is no birth and death and those who reach that level of consciousness reside there in their eternal freedom.
Vedanta however opines that at the time of total dissolution of the Universe, even Vaikuntha and Kailasa are annihilated because they are also forms .
At that time, only that which is beyond the Gunas remains as it is and it is the absolute Brahman which is eternal and non-perishable.


The state where, Time, Karma, Guan, Dharma, Maya are all not existing is really the absolute Brahman. In Vaikuntha the Sayujjyata liberation which can be attained is with Gunas but the absolute Brahman is the state where Maya is dissolved and that is complete Sayujjyata.

[Viraja]

Namaste Viraja di,

In simple terms, smArta-s are the ones who do karma kand, but later on move ahead with Jnana marg. Vishnu Tatva, Shiva Tatva, Param Padam, etc are all states of consciousness as per advaita.

However, if you do not move on to next ashram, and continue karma kand, then you may attain adobe of chosen deity, as fruit of your karma. Here adobe means a place, Kailash, Vaikuntha. As karma is not the end, agama-s are more related to temple worship and are supplementary to veda-s (as per my understanding), then a time comes, when a smArta acquire sufficient inner purity because of his karma kand procedures, they move on to sanyAsa ashram, which will be Jnana marg. However their love of their chosen deity may not diminish. We have Madhusudan Sarasvati (Krishna Bhakta and an Advaitin), and Appaya Dikshita (Shiva Bhakta and an Advaitin).

Let me give you a link to what Suta Samhita (commented by Vidyaranya Swami) says.

P.S. HLK is not following Adi Shankara or smArta. He follows ant Dyaneshvar and Sant Eknath. They were great saints. Sant Dyaneshavar made a buffalo sing bhAgavat PurANa. He is very popular in Maharashtra. Eknath bhAgavat is also available.

Aum

Namaste Amrut bhai,

I am not following what you meant by 'agama-s' in the message, but when I substitute it with the word 'niyamas' (as in one's assigned or taken-over duties), then it makes sense to me. Basically you are saying that a smarta follows agamic (niyamic) duties of temple worship and structured study of the vedas and performs duties like a karma-yogi (one without expectations) until there comes a stage when he can move to Jnana-marga alone. At this time, when he doesn't choose the jnana-path, he still attains salvation but reaches his chosen deity (what a blessing!).

I went through the link provided by you - it basically says there are various types of agamas which men follow, which are all going to one's chosen lord and initially he rewards people to calm them down into the marga of spirituality first and then slowly steers them into jnana-marga. I hope my basic understanding is correct. Thank you for the link. By the way, isn't it your blog? Nice information!

(I do know about sant Jnaneshwar - I have even seen the places he used to live in with his sister and brother who are believed to be amsas of ma Durga and Lord Shiva respectively (with Sant Jnaneshwar being considered Vishnu avatara). I have seen idols of the little sister frying a roti on the back of sant Jnaneshwar as his Kundalini got awakened and the back was as hot as a frying pan! Amazing incidents, all when they were little kids, and to speak of making a buffalo narrate the meaning of the veda - I saw the place where they made this happen too - all in VijayTV's 'Veedu Thedi Varuvaan Vittalan' . Sorry HLK for this little diversion).

Thank you, Amrut bhai.

[brahma jijnasa]

Namaste

I have seen Gaudiya VAishnava-s skip the second part. Lets be safe. Lets take first part

What do you mean by that?

regards

[hinduism♥krishna]

Sant Dyaneshavar made a buffalo sing bhAgavat PurANa.

I think , it is bhagavad gita , not bhagavat purana .

Sant dnyaneshwar and eknath were the topmost devotees of shri krishna . Sant dnyaneshwar was the avatar of krishna/vishnu . His mission was to spread the importance of hari nama in kaliyuga and to teach bhagavat gita in simple words .When he was 16 years old , he wrote the commentry on bhagavad gita and later on at the age of 21 on 13th day of the second half of Kartik in Shaka 1218, Dnyaneshwar entered into a permanent state of Sanjeevan Samadhi ,yogic path to attain bramhan, at Alandi in Pune in Maharashtra, India .His siblings also decided to take samadhi and within year's time they too reached at the supreme feet of vishnu .

AND EKNATH was among the disciple chain of dattatreya ( avatar of vishnu ) .

I salute to my guru and i consider them non-different from that absolute bramhan .

hari hari hari

[Amrut]

I think , it is bhagavad gita , not bhagavat purana .

Sant dnyaneshwar and eknath were the topmost devotees of shri krishna . Sant dnyaneshwar was the avatar of krishna/vishnu . His mission was to spread the importance of hari nama in kaliyuga and to teach bhagavat gita in simple words .When he was 16 years old , he wrote the commentry on bhagavad gita and later on at the age of 21 on 13th day of the second half of Kartik in Shaka 1218, Dnyaneshwar entered into a permanent state of Sanjeevan Samadhi ,yogic path to attain bramhan, at Alandi in Pune in Maharashtra, India .His siblings also decided to take samadhi and within year's time they too reached at the supreme feet of vishnu .

AND EKNATH was among the disciple chain of dattatreya ( avatar of vishnu ) .

I salute to my guru and i consider them non-different from that absolute bramhan .

hari hari hari

Ok. Got it.

Hari OM