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Thread: Who Can Learn the Veda's

  1. #81
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by vcindiana View Post
    But I am confused that the very Geeta also says in Ch 15verse 8: As the wind carries away odors from their seat even so Jivatma snatching these (Gunas? /Karmas) from the body which it casts off, migrates into the body which it acquires"
    Does this mean our first understanding is to be “politically” correct?

    Love...........VC
    Namaste VC,

    Thank you for the verse.

    I do not see any political correctness here. What is IS. It has all along been argued that Gunas carry forward along with Jivatma to its abode and thus is causative for the particular nature of mind and body of the abode and is the deciding factor for the ambience.

    It is futile to blame others and the world for one's nature and surroundings, which are included in the Jivatma, which is said to be atomic yet infinite. Jivatma is the Universal consciosness (Universe) endowed with a mind and is a thinker and abides in a location (in object). Paramatma is just the Seer, is not a thinker and does not abide in objects. Consciousness is the same.


    Om
    Last edited by atanu; 09 March 2009 at 07:21 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  2. #82
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namaste,


    VC asks,

    It is interesting mathematically you try to explain combination of 3 Gunas and 4 Varnas. What if I ask you how about tertiary categories?
    IF the first 2 guṇa-s are complimentary then the 3rd guṇa will reside in the 3rd position.

    Yet if the first 2 guṇa are not possible - they are diametrically opposed, then a 3 level guṇa is of little use.

    Example ( as given from the original post):

    Sattva as primary and tamas as secondary are diametrically opposed to each other, the 3rd position would then be rajas. Yet this combination would be highly unlikely as a varṇa condition.

    Note that rajas ( action, movement, motivation) as a first or secondary condition is always possible, no matter if sattva or tamas leads or follows the location. Rajas gives one the call to action - it does not care much if it is sattvic or tamasic.

    Brahma's creation - a call to action, creation, expansion
    Viṣṇu's maintenance and balance - sattva
    Śiva's dissolution - tamas

    Yet no matter which varṇa one resides, the 3 guṇa-s are always there i.e. all 3 of these qualities are in every action.
    Open and closing your eyes these 3 conditions are met; walking these 3 conditions are met, i.e. you walk, the leg goes forward, then there is a point of balance where there is no walking but balance in one's stride, the mid-point, then this is 'destroyed' and the leg swings back and the other leg comes forward, to the balance point, that is destroyed and it goes forward;
    In thinking these 3 conditions are met e.g. there is a thought the comes into being, it is entertained, then is goes away.

    You are born, maintain, then die. Yet at each stage of your life, something has to disolve, die, before something new ( growth, intelligence, expansion, etc) occurs.


    praṇām
    Last edited by yajvan; 08 March 2009 at 07:37 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  3. #83
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    Namaste,



    praṇām
    Thank you Yajavan.

    I need to know where eactly in Geeta this is clearly explained about the relationship between the 3 Gunas and 4 Varnas.

    Thank you again for your insights.

    Love............VC

  4. #84
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by vcindiana View Post
    Thank you Yajavan.

    I need to know where eactly in Geeta this is clearly explained about the relationship between the 3 Gunas and 4 Varnas.

    Thank you again for your insights.

    Love............VC
    Namaste VC,

    Although I do not understand your need, the below is given the original explanation of the four varnas, which are fundamentally function (task) based.

    Book 10, 90. Rig Veda Purusa Sukta


    12 The Brahmana was his mouth, of both his arms was the Rajanya made.

    His thighs became the Vaisya, from his feet the Sudra was produced.


    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  5. #85
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~



    Quote Originally Posted by vcindiana View Post
    Thank you Yajavan.

    I need to know where eactly in Geeta this is clearly explained about the relationship between the 3 Gunas and 4 Varnas.

    Thank you again for your insights. Love............VC

    Namaste VC,

    Atanu-ji has given you good council... yet to answer your question specifically, Kṛṣṇa points out the 4 fold order (cātur-varṇyaṁ) in the Bhāgavad gītā, chapter 4 , 13th śloka.


    This knowledge is also called out in the Upaniṣad-s and will leave it to your research.



    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  6. #86
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Namaste VC,

    Although I do not understand your need, the below is given the original explanation of the four varnas, which are fundamentally function (task) based. Book 10, 90. Rig Veda Purusa Sukta


    12 The Brahmana was his mouth, of both his arms was the Rajanya made.
    His thighs became the Vaisya, from his feet the Sudra was produced.
    Om
    Dear Atanu and Yajavan:

    My concerns are different from all the discussions here about the evils of caste system in India. I understand creation of Varna had/has a purpose of assigning a dharma or a function to each one of us. As you pointed out from Rig-Veda Book 10, 90. Rig Veda Purusa Sukta, it is metaphorically describes the individual function of each member of the society for its good. Feet are equally important as mouth. Our excretory organs may be dirtier in their functions but these are as essential as our heart and brain. This message is also carried in the Bible where Paul describes as in the Body of Christ. There cannot be hierarchy in this system.

    My difficulty is in understanding of putting characters (Gunas) in describing each of these categories. I wondered where in the scriptures it is written Shudras are very much of Tamas characters meaning lazy and uncaring people. Isnt it these people are supposed to be the labor force of the society? When we start characterizing each Varna dont you think we are putting the hierarchy back (One is Holier than other) and go against the very principle of Varna?

    Geeta mentions Varna is based on GUNAKARMA, a compound word and it does not clearly describe individual characteristics of Varna as Yajavan has elaborated.
    My other question is if each category of Varna comes with specific rigid characters then where is the room for an improvement? It is my understanding Guna or the characters are dynamic and ever changing (hopefully for better). Each Varna cannot be put into a nice box of some primary and secondary Gunas as Yajavan tries to explain.

    Gunakarma, a very complicated word must have deeper meaning that I have not been able to understand. I am not trying to be blunt here. I am open for better understanding.

    Love............VC

  7. #87
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~


    Quote Originally Posted by vcindiana View Post
    Dear Atanu and Yajavan:

    My concerns are different from all the discussions here about the evils of caste system in India.
    My difficulty is in understanding of putting characters (Gunas) in describing each of these categories. I wondered where in the scriptures it is written Shudras are very much of Tamas characters meaning lazy and uncaring people. Love............VC
    Namaste VC,
    May I say, perhaps you are missing a fundamental understanding of the guna-s. A review of this may be helpful to you.

    Please consider these posts:
    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...55&postcount=5
    Post 5, 6, & 11.

    If I do not have an increase in tamas this evening, I will not go to sleep. If I do not have a increase on rago-guna in the A.M. I will not arise. If sattva is not prevelant when I sit to meditate , I will not be able to complete my sadhana.

    No one is all one guna ( I think you know this by now)... it is the tendencies, one takes on, in the mix of the human. This is a fundamental principle of Ayurved. It is my assessment you are coining 'good and bad' to the guna qualities.


    After reading the above posts mentioned, lets then revisit your POV.


    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #88
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    It is my assessment you are coining 'good and bad' to the guna qualities.
    praṇām
    Namaste VC and yajvan,

    I think, yajvan is on the target here. VC's questions are deep and very useful for all Hindus. Very unknowingly, however, VC says there should be no hierarchy in guna categories and yet assumes hierarchy when ascribing tamas to shudras. It is not a peculiarity of an individual but this is very general. I find this in my thoughts most often.

    God is known as tAmasa Parastat and not sattwa parastat. Actually, in a round ball of fire, there is no up and down or there is no above and below. Feet (shudras) does not mean the lower in a round ball of fire, but means that which provides support.

    That said, I will also like to see some shruti that says Shudra (the feet of purusha) is predominantly tamasa. (though I know that the greatest tamasa of deep sleep is indeed the support of all this).



    Now it makes me laugh that an upanishad describes Brahman as the tail -- the tail on which we sit. he he.

    Brahman is the support of all this.

    Thanks to VC and Yajvan.

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  9. #89
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    For dear VC,

    Bhgavata Gita


    “14:5. Sattva, rajas, and tamas are the gunas originating due to interaction with prakriti. They firmly bind to the body the immortal indweller of it, O mighty-armed.

    “14:6. Of these gunas, sattva, thanks to its unstained purity — light and healthy, — attaches by attraction to happiness and by the bonds of relationships (with like-minded people) and by the bonds of knowledge (about the non-important), O sinless one.

    “14:7. Know that rajas — the field of passions — is the source of attachment to the earthly life and the thirst for it that binds, O Kaunteya, the indweller of the body by attraction to action.

    “14:8. Tamas, born of ignorance, deludes the indwellers of bodies binding them by negligence, carelessness, and laziness, O sinless one.

    “14:9. Sattva attaches to bliss; rajas attaches to actions; tamas, verily, destroys wisdom and attaches to carelessness.

    “14:10. Sometimes the guna sattva overcomes rajas and tamas; when rajas prevails — then sattva and tamas are defeated; sometimes tamas dominates defeating rajas and sattva.

    “14:11. When the light of wisdom shines from every pore of the body, then one can know that in this person sattva grows.

    “14:12. Greed, anxiety, urge to act, restlessness, worldly passions — all these qualities arise from growth of rajas.

    “14:13. Dullness, laziness, carelessness, and also delusion — all these are born when tamas grows.

    “14:14. If at the time of death sattva prevails in man, then he enters pure worlds of men of higher knowledge.


    “14:15. If prevails rajas, then he gets born among those attached to action (in the world of matter). Dying in the state of tamas, he will be born again among the ignorant.


    “14:16. The fruit of righteous action is harmonious and pure. Verily, the fruit of passion is suffering. The fruit of ignorance is wandering in darkness.

    “14:17. Sattva gives birth to wisdom. Rajas — to greed. Carelessness and insanity originate from tamas.

    “18. Those who are seated in Sattwa proceed upwards; the Rajasic dwell in the middle; and the Tamasic, abiding in the function of the lowest Guna, go downwards.

    .

    “14:19. When man sees the three gunas as the only reason of activity, and when he cognizes that which is transcendent to the gunas — then he comes to My Essence.

    “14:20. When the indweller of the body becomes free from the three gunas related to the world of matter, then such a person becomes free from births, deaths, old-age, suffering, and partakes of immortality.”
    ------------------

    The effect of Tamasa is to stupefy to dullness. Shri Krishna does categorise tamasa as jaghanya -- i.e. detestible quality. Yet we do not see direct correlation of Tamasa with birth of Shudra. What we see is tamasa correlating with the birth of the ignorant. I, like VC, do not understand how shudra (feet of Purusha as per Rig Veda) can be directly correlated with "THE IGNORANT" and "THE UNTOUCHABLE". May be I have missed something.


    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 12 March 2009 at 12:57 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  10. #90
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    Re: Who Can Learn the Veda's

    Namaste VC,
    From Paramacharya:
    ------Instead of speaking about the subject myself, I will cite the views of Gandhiji who is much respected by the reformists: "The Gita does talk of varna being according to guna and karma, but guna and karma are inherited by birth." ---------
    From Paramacharya
    --------Vyasa himself says: "Kalih saduh, Sudrah saduh" (The age of Kali is no way inferior to other ages nor the sudras inferior to other castes. Kali is indeed elevated and Sudras exalted. ) In other yugas or ages Bhagawan is attained to with difficulty by meditation, austerities and puja, but in Kali he is reached by the mere singing of his names. The Brahmin, the Ksatria and the Vaisya are likely to have self pride, so they cannot attain atmic liberation easily. The Brahmin is likely to be in vain about his intellectual superiority, the Ksatria about his power as a ruler and the Vaisya about his wealth. So these three varnas will tend to stray from the path of dharma. A member of the fourth varna, on the contrary is humble. ----------------
    ----------------------------------
    Based on the previous post citing Gita, I add that Guna karma is not only inherited by birth, but birth is also decided upon by one's prior Guna-Karma. Thus it is a cause effect relationship like: ------karma-guna-varna-kula-karma-----

    Considering shudras (the support of all) as untouchables means using varnasrama of Hindu Dharma for ego satifaction and must be condemned. It is OK to believe that the quality of ignorance is the lowest and untouchable, since it is root of all problems. But it is not OK to say that Shudra is the lowest and untouchable. Sage Vysasa, in fact, says: Sudrah saduh.


    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 12 March 2009 at 02:35 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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