A distant dream???

[renuka]

(Would you rather say that the numerous self-realized saint of Hinduism spent their time 'selfishly'?).

Dear Viraja Ji,

Do you remember the story of Swami Vivekananda? The one when he was in USA and he broke down crying when he was staying in a house of a rich USA person?

He cried because he felt that the westerners were living in lap of luxury but his fellow Indian was suffering for even food.

True saints are not really praying for themselves..many refuse Moksha because they prefer to help others.

We mortal humans need to adopt this thinking..to keep all our spiritual needs on hold till everyone else can be in peace.

I know a priest out here who phones people up asking for big amounts of money because he does Homa for world peace whenever there is some crisis in the world.

Even though I never attend religious functions I had donated to him in the past so that it would help his mission..then I realized later he was asking for more and more.

He seemed to be using world crisis to increase his income..so I told him I will donate the money to a needy and sick person instead and he got angry with me saying that "why cant you donate for God"

So I told him that the sick person is also God.

Right now I have no prayer in my mind...All I have is some hope.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

True saints are not really praying for themselves..many refuse Moksha because they prefer to help others.

Where on this good earth did you come up with this idea ? Please pardon me but this is ( plain and simple) hog-wash.

The difference is simple: (when) you think you are in the world -or- the world is in you. When the world is in you ( the avadhūta¹ ) then you can do the most good.
In fact 'doing' is not even necessary ; just the silence of being is enough to uplift the world.

iti śivaṁ

words

avadhūta = a + va + dhū + ta - one who has shaken off worldly obligation. But if we look deeper we see the significance of this word-form:

• a = a name of viṣṇu or śiva - in both cases we are talking of expansiveness and perfect silence
• va = a dwelling ; the ocean ; auspiciousness
• dhū = shake off , remove , liberate one's self from
• ta = has mutiple meanings - a warrior; a jewel ; virtue

[Viraja]

Dear Renuka ji,

I agree with Yajvan ji's message above.

The problem is with your approach. Did you realize how many lifetimes of sadhana a saint would have been through, for him to work solely for humanitarian causes? Do you think it is even possible for commoners like ourselves to act like them? And you are refusing the sadhaka his right to perfection, be it motivated by moksha or pure manava-seva, to become one with the brahman and become perfect.

Hope you become aware of the error in your approach!

Best regards,

Viraja

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

there seems to be some confusion brewing and I want to be sure the reader is aligned to the intent of my post ( #12 ) above.
My offer is not about denying/constraining one's intent ( or result, or motivation) to bloom fully ( mokṣa ); it is the notion that all of society benefits from the realized person - he or she that lives the fullness of Being.
This person ( the avadhūta) sees the whole world as nothing but an extension of his/her own Self. All things reside in him. Helping others is an oxymoron - there are no 'others' other then himself everywhere. It is his/her silence of the SELF that uplifts - it is pure awareness. It is calming, nourishing, sattva. It stills the anxious mind that comes near it. It uplifts, it is only bent of upliftment without even acting. Until one experiences this (being close to a realized being), these are only flowery words that are offered.

iti śivaṁ

[renuka]

Dear Renuka ji,

I agree with Yajvan ji's message above.

The problem is with your approach. Did you realize how many lifetimes of sadhana a saint would have been through, for him to work solely for humanitarian causes? Do you think it is even possible for commoners like ourselves to act like them? And you are refusing the sadhaka his right to perfection, be it motivated by moksha or pure manava-seva, to become one with the brahman and become perfect.

Hope you become aware of the error in your approach!

Best regards,

Viraja

Dear Viraja Ji,

I dont deny my approach could be wrong..it could be a phase that person goes through but at the present moment it feels right to me...I have a feeling its going to feel right for a very very very long time.

There are a few close friends of mine who feel this way too..in fact one of my closest friend has abandoned all forms of prayer and has become a full time philanthropist helping the poor and needy.

He too feels that its better to spend time helping others instead of praying for personal salvation.

So since many others I know feel the same way as I do..I decided to start a thread here to just share opinions.

[saswathy]

Dear friends ,
Moksham is not a geographical plane nor temporary psychological state . It is getting release from bandhana.It automatically comes when the person is ready for that like it is said in '' .... .......urvaruka miva bandhanath .....'' which is very very rare though not impossible.So how can it be branded as selfishness.It is detachment in mind from the karthruthwam and resultant phalam of the deeds.Whatever has to happen will happen and what is not destined to happen will not happen . It is not defeatism or running away from duties nor dry vedantha.It is a perfect understanding of the limited role of freewill.To pray or not to pray is in no way going to change the outcome .

[Viraja]

To pray or not to pray is in no way going to change the outcome .

Dear Saswathy ji,

How are you saying the above? Even as per SriVaishnava belief, one can do 'saranAgathi' to the lord, observe complete faithfulness in him and mother Mahalakshmi, do kainkarya/seva to the Lord and all of Lord's children and attain 'paramapadhA'. So it is a wish one can work towards, beginning as a normal person. But as you said, it is not a 'selfish' wish because:

i) It involves Seva to the lord and his people - people of the world.

ii) Even if you were to do continuously serve the people of the world - how many can you serve and for how long? There comes a point of detachment (like you described) when all one wants is 'reaching his abode'.

Thanks.

[Viraja]

There are a few close friends of mine who feel this way too..in fact one of my closest friend has abandoned all forms of prayer and has become a full time philanthropist helping the poor and needy.

He too feels that its better to spend time helping others instead of praying for personal salvation.

So since many others I know feel the same way as I do..I decided to start a thread here to just share opinions.

Dear Renuka ji,

No need to say I had similar thoughts when I started the thread 'The highest ideal for human life'. In that I stated the following sentiment, "In the world about .1% are born who are of the mindset of doing seva to others with no other wishes for their own. But the rest 99.9% are having desires and for those of this disposition, starting with aiming towards mukti may be the most ideal goal, so that their wishes and desires are properly channeled toward the supreme lord and in a manner that they will take up to service eventually but without the hassles of the ego". The exact words I used in that thread may be different but the message is the same. This is the reason why I feel that for the 99.9% of us, aiming towards moksha maybe the ideal goal.

Thanks.

[saswathy]

Dear friend ,
In saranagathi , automatically all your needs and your best interests are taken care of . That goes with out saying that saranagathi is complete but not partial . Even an iota of doubt does not arise . Unmindful of that trust when a person goes on praying rather begging God to grant boons , it is not total and complete saranagathy.When you have a doubt only ,you request. In total submission the question of second thought does not arise .Like I already said , an infant does not sit up praising , demanding , praying a mother . It takes every thing in total trust and as a right .In fact it does n't even know to ask .

[Believer]

Namaste,

.....in fact one of my closest friend has abandoned all forms of prayer and has become a full time philanthropist helping the poor and needy.

He too feels that its better to spend time helping others instead of praying for personal salvation....

Mark Twain once observed, 'From cradle to the grave, man only does what makes him feel good.'

If prayer makes me feel good, I will pray.
If philanthropy makes me feel good about myself, I will do that full time.
If I am in pain, I will curse God for sending misfortune my way, and that will make me feel good.
If getting out of the bed from the left side makes me feel good, I will always get out of the left side of the bed.

It is all about me, me, ME!

When there is no meditative bhakti in ones life, the intellect guides him in all the wrong directions. All deeds are directed by - 'I think', 'I want' and 'I need'.

Pranam.