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Thread: define Self Realization and Moksha

  1. #11
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    Re: define Self Realization and Moksha

    Quote Originally Posted by saswathy View Post
    Dear friend ,
    knowledge is not self realisation. A person becomes knowledgeable by knowing things . But he becomes self realised only when he experiences and becomes one with that .Arjuna is a devotee and staunch believer and follower of krishna .He is not self realised yogi.Apart from that the script was written much before the mahaharatha war and the purpose and intent of war were not making Arjuna the realised one .Arjuna was one of the tools used in the operation --- cleaning the world.This is my opinion only . Unless the rider is given many verbal arrows would be thrown in .
    Namaste saswathy ji
    Thanks for the explanation.

    If we have to go by your views, then there may not be a self realized soul living in a body. All self realized soul will be in Vaikuntam only.


    Apart from that the script was written much before the mahaharatha war and the purpose and intent of war were not making Arjuna the realised one

    I am aware of the purpose of the war. But I don't understand why was it scripted even before its occurrence. Can you tell me the source of this information so that I can understand it.
    Anirudh...

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    Re: define Self Realization and Moksha

    Namaste Anirudh,

    Quote Originally Posted by Anirudh View Post
    I am following BG English commentary by Jayadayal Goyandaka published by Gita Press.
    In chapter 11, Shree Krishna offers yogic vision to his see cosmic body. Arjuna sees that.
    This is not Self-realisation but having a vision of Lord Krishna as VirAt. This is grace of Lord Krishna which makes him aware what Krishna is. This is knowledge understood by mind. Self-realisation is beyond that. Self is from where mind arises.

    Later in chapter 12, Shree Krishna explains the marks of devotees who have realized.
    Yes, but that we get even by reading books like Bhagwad Gita but we don't become Self-realised. Self-realisation is not bookish knowledge, it has to be "experienced". The Self has to experience Itself as Itself.

    In chapter 18, Shree Krishna explains the glory of self surrender. When Arjuna was still confused after hearing everything, in slokam 66, Shree Krishna ask Arjuna to take refuge in HIM. And HE shall absolve all of Arjuna's SIN.
    In Slokam 73 Arjuna says he has understood everything and is prepared to do everything just like an instrument of Shree Krishna.
    In Chapter 18, Arjuna does say : " My "moha" is destroyed and I have gained "smriti"". However, it is not exactly Self-realisation. Arjuna realises his folly by seeing the reason after being instructed by Lord Krishna and he says that he is ready to do what he is told to do.

    Arjuna has seen HIS cosmic form. Arjuna has complete faith in Shree Krishna. He also understood that he is not the actual doer but just an instrument in the scheme of Shree Krishna. He has self surrended to Shree Krishna. Arjuna has his mind fixed on Shree Krishna.

    After reading slokam 73 of chapter 18, how can we say Arjuna is NOT self realized ?
    As I have narrated above, these things do not make one Self-realised. If you remember, Yama (Death) clearly says regarding Self-realisation in Kathopanishad :

    2-III-12. Not by speech, not by mind, not by the eye can It be attained. Except in the case of one who says, 'It exists', how can It be known to anyone else?

    2-III-13. The Self should be apprehended as existing and also as It really is. Of these two (aspects), to him who knows It to exist, Its true nature is revealed.

    2-III-14. When all longings that are in the heart vanish, then a mortal becomes immortal and attains Brahman here.

    2-III-15. When all the knots of the heart are cut asunder here, then a mortal becomes immortal. Only this much is the instruction.


    Let's assume that my teacher has taught me a lesson theoretically and also demonstrated it practically. Then he checks with me whether I understood the subject. To that if I say yes, but in reality haven't understood it, then I am telling lies.

    I can neither assume that Arjuna lied nor Sreeman Naaraayan can be cheated like that.
    Nobody has lied. Arjuna was instructed by Lord Krishna verbally and he was to understand it by his mind and he understood what was taught by Lord Krishna. So, Arjuna didn't lie. However, This is not Self-realisation as we understand from what Yama said.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: define Self Realization and Moksha

    Namaste Devotee ji

    Thank you. When ever I get a feeling that I have understood something, our scriptures offer some more homework.

    I have an another question. I will ask you only after re reading slokam 13 to 19 of chapter 12 and re listening to upanyasam of Shree U Ve Krishnan Swamigal on Sharanagathi.
    Anirudh...

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    Re: define Self Realization and Moksha

    Dear Anirudh,
    Bhagavadgeetha is the source for all our doubts regarding the sadhana , realisation of self , surrender ,and different types of sadhana as well as resultant fruits. My limited knowledge about sadhana came from surrender to my ishtadevatha. I am neither a scholar nor a highly evolved soul to give extensive quotations from scriptures . But what little I know I got from my personal experience .

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    Re: define Self Realization and Moksha

    Dear Anirudh ,
    I forgot to add that Krishna himself said that any worship in any form goes to him .we do have personal deity concept because we can't concentrate on nothingness . In our scriptures it is given that a chaste and good wife could even stop the sun from moving . Thus what gives result is not the name or form of deity but the single minded devotion trust and faith . There was a bhaktha by name Kannadu who did the bathing of the shiva idol by his spit and the balancing act by putting his foot on the statue while offering his rituals of puja. Shiva was pleased and gave boons to him but never got angry with him . This story belongs to Kalaahasthi near Thirupathi in Andhra pradesh .So intense bhakthi creates a kind of energy which makes impossible feats possible .But that is possible only in case of one in millions.There could be some extraordinary cases like that but I can't show .

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    Re: define Self Realization and Moksha

    Namaste saswathy ji,

    I will send you a PM.
    Anirudh...

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    Re: define Self Realization and Moksha

    Namaste Anirudh

    Doubts, ... doubts, ... they are there to give us a headache.

    Bhagavad gita 4.41: "One who acts in devotional service, renouncing the fruits of his actions, and whose doubts have been destroyed by transcendental knowledge, is situated factually in the self. Thus he is not bound by the reactions of work, O conqueror of riches."

    You've quoted verses from the Gita that truly speak of Arjuna as a self-realized person.
    Of course that Arjuna is a self-realized soul. It is said:

    "That God, the maker of all things, the great Self, always dwelling in the heart of man, is perceived by the heart, the soul, the mind; -- they who know it become immortal." (Svetasvatara Upanishad 4.17)

    "The Person is all this, sacrifice, penance, Brahman, the highest immortal; he who knows this hidden in the cave (of the heart), he, O friend, scatters the knot of ignorance here on earth." (Mundaka Upanishad 2.1.10)

    "I know that great person (purusha) of sunlike lustre beyond the darkness. A man who knows him truly, passes over death; there is no other path to go." (Svetasvatara Upanishad 3.8)

    In this verse, given the definition of what it means to become a self-realized soul who becomes immortal: It says "I know that great person (purusha)", and then says "A man who knows him truly, passes over death", ie he becomes immortal (liberated soul -- mukta), and then says "there is no other path to go" which means that it is the only way to achieve immortality.
    For sure is that Arjuna really knew this great person (purusha) who stood before him in the form of Lord Krishna, with whom he discussed the Bhagavad gita on the battlefield of Kurukshetra. No doubt about it.
    Thus there is no doubt that Arjuna is a self-realized soul because he knew Him very well -- Lord Krishna -- who was exactly that person addressed by the Upanishads "A man who knows him truly, passes over death".
    For sure is that Arjuna knew Lord Krishna much better than any yogi who only has a chance to meditate sometimes, and during meditation occasionally see the Lord, who is the supreme Self, in his heart (see above "That God, ... the great Self, always dwelling in the heart of man, ... -- they who know it become immortal").

    Not that Arjuna occasionally had the opportunity to see Lord Krishna during meditation, but he had the opportunity to hang out with Him every day, to talk about Gita with Him, to be friends with Him, even to fight together with Him. It is said that Lord Krishna was Arjuna's chariot driver on the battlefield of Kurukshetra, right?
    So Arjuna is much, much greater yogi than any of such yogis who only has a chance to meditate and during meditation occasionally see the Lord in their hearts, with no opportunity to personally associate with the Lord as Arjuna could.

    We really can not even imagine how great soul Arjuna was. But also other personal associates of Lord Krishna such as His parents, friends gopas (cowherds) and gopis, etc. They were much, much greater yogis than any of those yogis that I mentioned above. Can you even imagine that -- to be a personal associate of the Supreme Lord, Lord Krishna?!
    I doubt that we can imagine how it is like.

    Here's another reason why Arjuna was self-realized soul.
    It is said that Arjuna is the eternal companion of the Lord who is always with Him, and thus eternally liberated soul and of course self-realized soul. This is evident from the Mahabharata. It is said in the Mahabharata that Lord Krishna and Arjuna were Nara Narayana sages in a previous life. The two sages are always together, they are forever thus. It is said that sage Nara appeared as Arjuna, while the sage Narayana appeared as Lord Krishna. This sage Narayana is of course the Supreme Lord, Vishnu. So not only were they together in this life as Arjuna and Krishna, but they are always together as Nara Narayana sages.
    This is elaborately explained at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nara-Narayana and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arjuna#Character_of_Arjuna

    Everyone who is always together with the Lord is a liberated soul:

    "After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection." (Bhagavad gita 8.15)

    To be always together with the Lord is "the highest perfection".


    Quote Originally Posted by Anirudh
    The same "self realized guy" later takes revenge for Abhimanyu death, cries for his children death, his elder brother death etc etc.
    I get confused why these events are associated with Self realized guy.
    In the Bhagavad gita Arjuna even refuses to fight (see chapter 2), and that was his duty as a warrior (kshatriya). Had this not happened Lord Krishna would never have had the opportunity to tell him the Bhagavad gita, and we would never have had the opportunity to read it.
    Think about this.

    Arjuna is not just an ordinary "self realized guy", but is eternal companion of the Lord and eternally liberated soul who was part of His eternal lila (pastime). In pastimes of the Lord many things may look incomprehensible to us. See above, if a "self realized guy" -- who is one eternally liberated soul as well -- would never fall into ignorance, then we would never have had the opportunity to read the Bhagavad gita.

    After all he was a kshatriya, whose duty was to fight and not to go into the forest to meditate like a yogi and do ahimsa.


    --------------
    Upanishad quotes see at http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/#upan

    Bhagavad gita quotes see at BBT, vedabase.net, vedabase.com or elsewhere



    regards

  8. #18

    Re: define Self Realization and Moksha

    Namaste,

    Nice explanation of how Arjun (who is Nara of the Nara-NArAyaN pair) is a pure devotee and a realized being. Arjun was being the 'nimitta=mAtra' -- the 'placeholder' or 'excuse' and was asking questions so that the world could benefit. He became the calf without which the world would not get any Gita-milk. Arjun was anasUya (devoid of envy) hence candidate for being KRshNa sakhA.

    Also, he did not take revenge of Abhimanyu's death. He did his kshatriya duty abiding by shAstra. He was perplexed when the verdicts conflicted.

    a) an AtatAyI (terrorist) must be killed especially for killing innocent children in sleep (shudder)
    b) a bramhana should not be killed
    c) Guru's son is our Guru so should be forgiven (Draupadi's take) or else Krupi will be left alone, and she will suffer just like Draupadi.

    KRshNa -- as always --- juggler of the Truth - - came up with the solution where all a,b,c were followed. Arjun followed His instruction.

    In fact, Arjun was very compassionate. He had no desire to take revenge on Duryodhan and the kaurav. KRshNa made him realize what was required of him.

    sarvopanishado gAvo, dogdhA gopAla-nandana
    pArtho vatsa sudhirbhoktA dugdham gItAmRtam mahat - Gita DhyAn shlok 4

    All upanishads are cows, KRshNa GopAl is the milkman,
    PArtha (Arjun, son of PRthA) is the calf and the immortal nectar of Gita is the milk.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  9. #19
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    Re: define Self Realization and Moksha

    Dear friend ,
    Do the caste , creed , race rules apply to a self realised soul .I was and have been under the impression that those things apply to ordinary mortals or for that matter extraordinary mortals but still beyond the self realisation state .Arjuna is a sakha , friend ,relative and more than all that ,but so are many of those charecters whom we come across in the life of Krishna .

  10. #20
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    Re: define Self Realization and Moksha

    Namaste,

    Self-realisation is a word which is used in the contxt of Advaita path and has been properly described by Advaita Gurus and normally it is misunderstood by the people on Bhakti path.

    That is what is happening here when BJ and Amey have defined Self-realisation in their own way in their posts above. If Self-realisation has to be defined as above, it is not what is understood by this term in Advaita VedAnta. In that case, the OP's question on why Arjuna wails on worldly losses etc. becomes invalid.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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