Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 11

Thread: There is one permanet?

  1. #1

    There is one permanet?

    I sincerely don't mean to start a debate, but i want to know how a buddhist would answer this?


    1. Nothing is permanent even in our lives right now
    the brain changes, the trees change, the eyes, ears, nose, everything changes

    but there appears to be one thing that is unending in you that is "the perceiver"

    even in sleep you perceive unconsciousness, you perceive changes, you perceive this that, you even perceive the moment your about to die.

  2. #2

    Re: There is one permanet?

    Quote Originally Posted by seekinganswers View Post
    I sincerely don't mean to start a debate, but i want to know how a buddhist would answer this?
    Consciousness isn't permanent but is arising in dependance on the changing senses and their objects.

  3. #3

    Re: There is one permanet?

    Namaste,

    I have been researching this topic myself as well.

    What I have found so far is that in Buddhism there is no such as Atman or Self (that is permanent and without a change). This is the only point that I don't like in Buddhism and that's why I follow the advaita path instead.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    July 2012
    Age
    59
    Posts
    639
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: There is one permanet?

    Namaste.

    How would a Buddhist answer this?

    The concept of impermanence is called Annica.

    Nothing is ever static, everything is subject to change and that's the nature of the material universe.

    Hindus have the concept of Atma/Soul/Brahman to describe that which is permanent or fixed....that which is beyond material existence.

    However (a big however), one must first understand the transient nature of existence to realise it. This is accomplished by following the Eightfold Path.

    Buddhists believe that through the understanding of Annica, one progresses onto Annata or a state of ego-lessness.

    What the Hindus call Atma or Soul exists in Buddhism only through the realisation of it - Nirvana.

    Basically, it is exactly the same thing, only the semantics differ.

    Aum Namah Shivaya

  5. #5

    Re: There is one permanet?

    There is a "BIG LOGICAL FLAW" in saying Everything is changing/impermanent.

    Please see ...

    MOTION is always W.R.T something thats not moving.
    A Change means w.r.t something that's not changing.

    So Earth is moving ... w.r.t ? the Sun/Stars.
    Earth cannot be moving without a "Frame of Reference" that's stationary.

    So when I say, Everything is moving ... who recognizes that change?
    If the recognizer is also changing ... who recognizes this change in the recognizer ?

    A change ... or a movement... is always w.r.t a changeless Entity.
    So with respect to what is this changing ?

    "Change is the only thing thats constant" ... is a logical flaw ... coz , what about the truth value of this statement then ?

    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

  6. #6

    Re: There is one permanet?

    But (Perhaps) Buddhism is not saying exactly this. There is perhaps some vocabulary difference...

    Atma in Buddhist terms is "Ego"
    The Atma we use in our traditional Vedanta is "Buddha Nature" or some such thing.
    And Instead of Consciousness, they perhaps use Awareness ! While consciousness is seen as reflected awareness in mind ... !


    This is giving them a benefit of doubt
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

  7. #7

    Re: There is one permanet?

    Quote Originally Posted by silence_speaks View Post
    There is a "BIG LOGICAL FLAW" in saying Everything is changing/impermanent.

    Please see ...

    MOTION is always W.R.T something thats not moving.
    A Change means w.r.t something that's not changing.

    So Earth is moving ... w.r.t ? the Sun/Stars.
    Earth cannot be moving without a "Frame of Reference" that's stationary.

    So when I say, Everything is moving ... who recognizes that change?
    If the recognizer is also changing ... who recognizes this change in the recognizer ?

    A change ... or a movement... is always w.r.t a changeless Entity.
    So with respect to what is this changing ?

    "Change is the only thing thats constant" ... is a logical flaw ... coz , what about the truth value of this statement then ?

    Love!
    Silence
    This is well-said. This is so simply put. I may use your words when discussing this topic with some friends.

    This also reminds me of the teachings of Sri Ramana:
    'Who recognizes this / that?'
    'I do.'
    'Who am I?'


  8. #8

    Re: There is one permanet?

    Quote Originally Posted by silence_speaks View Post
    There is a "BIG LOGICAL FLAW" in saying Everything is changing/impermanent.

    Please see ...

    MOTION is always W.R.T something thats not moving.
    A Change means w.r.t something that's not changing.

    So Earth is moving ... w.r.t ? the Sun/Stars.
    Earth cannot be moving without a "Frame of Reference" that's stationary.

    So when I say, Everything is moving ... who recognizes that change?
    If the recognizer is also changing ... who recognizes this change in the recognizer ?

    A change ... or a movement... is always w.r.t a changeless Entity.
    So with respect to what is this changing ?

    "Change is the only thing thats constant" ... is a logical flaw ... coz , what about the truth value of this statement then ?

    Love!
    Silence
    There doesn't need to be a changeless entity observing change, only different rates of change.

  9. #9

    Re: There is one permanet?

    Dear rainycity,


    Consider the following statement:
    S : "Everything is changing w.r.t something else"

    If we say everything is changing w.r.t something else ... who is it that reports ?
    Lets say i see a thought changing. So i can say "Thought was there and is now gone".
    But what about the thought ? Can the thought say "you were there and now you are gone " ?

    Please see the problem. Only a conscious entity that outlives can make such a statement. So now ... when we talk about "I" changing ... this "I" is what? If it is the body, i see its change. if it is thoughts, i see its change.
    you cannot say "He sees you changing" ... what he sees is my body changing and i too see what he sees.
    so "I" change... the "Seer" changes ... w.r.t what?
    Thought? But that thought has already passed away!


    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

  10. #10

    Re: There is one permanet?

    Please allow me to share with you on some matters pertaining to Buddhism and the circumstances of nature: -

    What is Buddha Nature?

    Buddha nature is literally referring to the pure awareness per se. Awareness is a ground condition that ‘supports’ consciousness. The nature of awareness is effulgence and it is in a not-knowing state before the appearance of object. Consciousness, on the other hand, is appearance of objects in the mind. When awareness touches on objects, consciousness would arise simultaneously. Consciousness is naturally looking outward to objects and it is flitting all the time. In addition, consciousness is synergy i.e. energy that expands through cooperation. Synergy is a key to the geometric expansion of consciousness and thus the arising of its two terms i.e. prevailing consciousness and subtle consciousness. On the contrary, mind is a pattern of consciousness which is born from awareness. In fact, mind is known as consciousness in individuality. Therefore, the origin of individuality is the same as the origin of the mind. Mind is something more objective and involves clear discrimination – differentiates and understands the characteristics of objects. One utilises mind to understand things because mind understands the manipulation of consciousness. In Hinduism, the Self or Ātman is similar to the Buddha nature arising in individuals - perhaps, the difference merely lies in the word expression.

    Middle Path

    In Buddhism, all thoughts and actions are considered as wholesome or unwholesome only. There is no holy or sinful thought or act in the eyes of the Buddha. The meaning of wholesome would be in totality of perspective (skillful) and unwholesome would be in non-totality of perspective (unskillful). In fact, the Buddha has recommended Middle Path as an ideal approach when addressing a problem. Middle Path is all about focusing on core, neutral, balance and upright. It means to investigate and break through the core of life and all things without any attitudes of favouritism. Any investigations must commence based on unbiased grounds i.e. on neutral and upright positions. In other words, one needs to investigate the problem from various angles, analyse the findings, understand the truth thoroughly, and find a reasonable conclusion.

    According to Buddhism, there two sides of truth in existence i.e. the conventional truth and the ultimate truth. When addressing a problem, in the first place, we need to ensure whether our point of view is from the conventional perspective or from the ultimate perspective. For example, from the conventional perspective, we agree that duality or multiplicity does exist. Therefore, nibbāna is a phenomenon because we are speaking as a subject on the other side of the object or matter. In other words, the subject is pondering on the object or matter - phenomenon arises. However, from the ultimate perspective, we would then agree that no duality or multiplicity arises. Therefore, nibbāna is not a phenomenon (also applies on all other things) because there is no subject to ponder on the object or matter. In other words, no phenomenon arises if we speak from the ultimate perspective.

    Conventional Truth

    Conventional truth is a subjective and a relative truth. This means the truth orientation is dependent on the observer (i.e. the subject’s mind) to provide with the description, definition, recognition, valuation, etc. on the other side of the object or matter. And the truth conclusion varies among different observers or minds. Duality or multiplicity would arise in the presence of the mind. This is because there is a subject pondering on the object or matter - phenomenon arises. The subject is mainly the mind. Phenomenon is thing that appears to or is perceived by senses. In other words, phenomenon is thing that appears to or is perceived by the mind senses. When there is a mind arising, the phenomenon would arise. When there is a phenomenon arising, the dependent nature would arise. In other words, the mind is closely related to the phenomenon, and the phenomenon is closely related to the dependent nature - just like shadow follows the body. This is what the conventional reality is all about.

    The Perceiver and the Perceived

    Mind is the forerunner of all states. The presence in the wave of dependent phenomenon has clouded the mind from discerning the reality of circumstances i.e. ignorance arises. And with ignorance blindfolding the mind since the dawn of time, suffering arises and continues to arise in the dependent nature i.e. with the rise of perceptions, conceptions, labels, boundaries, names, activities, shapes, relations, descriptions, stereotyping, beginning, ending, etc.

    In the dependent nature, the mind is also known as the perceiver, whereas, the object or matter is known as the perceived. And everything that exists is empty because there is no essence to anything and nothing has ever existed in its own quality – nothing is permanent and unchanging. All objects exist conditionally without an eternal essence. They only exist in relation to each other as appearances that in turn vary as per the perceptions of the beholders.

    Let us analyse into the following illustration: -

    50 years ago Present Day

    Perceiver Perceived Perceiver Perceived
    A --> B A --> B
    (E.g. boy - David Smith) (E.g. toy - Ultraman) (E.g. man – David Smith) (E.g. toy – Ultraman)

    Remark : As a young boy, Mr. David Smith has a yearning for an Ultraman toy. But 50 years later, Mr. David Smith has grown up to become a matured adult and no longer yearns for the Ultraman toy. There has been a change in the mindset of Mr. David Smith throughout the time span of 50 years as well as the Ultraman toy. In fact, Mr. David Smith has gone through the rebirth process in each given moment for the past 50 years or so.

    In Buddhism, rebirth refers to evolving consciousness or stream of consciousness of a person (upon death) and the new consciousness arising in the same person (in the new person) is neither identical to, nor entirely different from, the old consciousness, but forms part of a causal continuum or stream with it. The basic cause for this persistent re-arising of personality is the abiding of consciousness in ignorance; when ignorance is uprooted, rebirth ceases.

    The Circumstances of Nature

    Naturally, we do know things and happenings exist because it can be known and felt by our senses. And our mind interprets event or happening as a condition that one has to go through, to persevere with, to soldier on with, to carry on with or to undertake with, inevitably. In other words, what exists is defined as that which can be known. If it cannot be known by the mind, then it does not exist and things can exist as in fallacy or in reality. Since things and happenings existed long before we have the slightest opportunity to recognise and understand it well, we are bound to suffer ignorantly. However, as human beings, we have the wisdom to make identification or recognition on the entire cycle of events or happenings.

    In the dependent nature, we do know one thing that is consistently constant i.e. becoming. This becoming process is the main reason for all things or happenings that we observe right here, right now, then or later. When there is a becoming process, there is a change process. When there is a change process, there is a circumstance that shapes up some sort of abilities in this dependent nature. This ability of sorts is also known as ‘energy’ in the scientific terminology. As such, we are clear now that energy is something that has always existed and remained constant - as the Law of Conservation of Energy that says energy in a system can neither be created nor destroyed and the sum of all energies is a constant or never changes.

    When we deal with the subject of energy, indirectly we also touch on the subject of matter. This is because energy and matter are simply two aspects of the same thing - both reflected in different forms only (as in Einstein's formula, E = mc2). Just like cause and effect are the same things - both reflected in a different time of events. As a summary, we could conclude that energy is a fundamental element in this dependent nature because every single thing or happening would involve energy aggregates. Even the so-called souls, spirits, ghosts - are all part of the energy aggregates because they can be detected by electromagnetic devices.

    So when we mention that the sum of all energies in a system is a constant or never changes, it means that there is a need for a balancing act in the dependent nature. Otherwise, a constant factor could not be achieved at all and the natural bounding law that dictates this circumstance of equilibrium in the dependent nature is called the Law of Kamma. In other words, the Law of Kamma is simply a natural bounding law of balancing. And only when there is a balance circumstance, there is a chance for a formation activity to take place i.e. under a balance phenomenon, one could witness shapes or forms arised; under an imbalance phenomenon, one could see no shapes or forms arised - and the cycle of conditional phenomena continues repeatedly.

    Ultimate Truth

    Right now, let us take a look at the other angle of the nature that is the non-dependent nature. What constitutes a non-dependent nature? A non-dependent nature is also known as an inherent nature of existence. Anything that inherently exists would not involve change and created objects cannot inherently exist since that would involve change. Therefore, we could conclude that all things or happenings in the dependent nature cannot inherently exist because the process of becoming or change is the key element of it.

    So how could we identify the ultimate truth in the nature? Rightfully, we could mention that the nature is ultimately universal and encompassed with both the inherent and the dependent qualities. The inherent quality of nature can be known as the deepest fact about things. It exists beyond mind, beyond concepts and words and it bears with the characteristics of beginning-less and end-less. Our mind is capable of perceiving this reality of nature and Buddhism is all about transformation from an ignorant state of mind into a realised state of mind. And an enlightened mind is able to discern the deepest fact about things in crystal clear and without hesitation after getting rid of the wave of dependent phenomenon.

    Nature is originally referred to essential qualities or innate disposition; related to the intrinsic characteristics that plants, animals, and other features of the world develop of their own accord. These essential qualities of the nature can be divided into two categories i.e. inherence and dependence. Both of these qualities as observed by the mind would exist concurrently in a harmonious orientation. Therefore, it is imperative for one to understand that the nature is sufficiently universal and infinite in its original disposition and is governed by the universal laws. In other words, there are two aspects of the nature - the dependence and the inherence. These two aspects would exist concurrently and can be illustrated in a mathematical equation as below: -

    Two Facets of the Nature

    Facet 1 --> ...(-2+2) + (-16+16) + (-832+832) + (-133+133) + (0) + (-54+54) + ...., etc. = 0 <-- Facet 2

    References: -

    Facet 1
    = dependent arising.
    = the existence of mind - that conjures up perceptions, conceptions, labels,
    names, descriptions, shapes, values, languages, etc.
    = the existence of rising and falling phenomena.
    = the existence of beginning and ending processes.
    = all subjects and objects are created i.e. inherent existence is devoid.
    = the emptiness could be realised in various stages.

    Facet 2
    = inherent existence.
    = the absence of mind to conjure up perceptions, conceptions, labels,
    names, descriptions, shapes, values, languages, etc.
    = the absence of beginning and ending processes.
    = the absence of conditional phenomena.
    = nothing has ever been created or changed.
    = the Buddha nature.

    Zero (0) = intermediation = absence = emptiness but not nothingness.
    = a mathematical value intermediate between positive and negative values.
    = the absence of any or all units under consideration.

    ...(-2+2) + ... + (-133+133) ... = values of fluxes that are dependent arising.

    ... + (-2+2) + (-54+54) + ... = this arising, that arises.

    ... + (0) + ... = this ceasing, that ceases = the stage of enlightenment.
    = all dependent arising are completely blown-off or extinguished.
    = a stage of perfect intermediation = a stage of absence = a complete realisation of emptiness.

    (....) = the Law of Karma = the universal law of balancing.

    -2+2 or -133+133 = the Law of Attraction.

    From the above mathematical equation, one could summarise as below: -

    1. Nature is a system of constant with a factor of intermediation or absence. It means that nature would orientate towards a state of balance, intermediation or absence at all times.
    2. When things run off-balance or when one stirs up in the nature - be it in volitional or non-volitional sense, the law of nature would take its course to balance it in one way or another across time and plane of existence.
    3. Anything that inherently exists would not involve change and created objects cannot inherently exist since that would involve change.
    4. The dependent nature is similar to the inherent nature.

    As a conclusion, we shall know by now that the nature is universal that bears with the inherent and the dependent qualities concurrently. The ultimate truth would remain unshaken no matter how one interprets it and one should not waste time trying to prove who is right, who is wrong, which school teaches more truths, etc. Trivial arguments would make one looks more foolish among all the other ignorant beings. And the world is not a closed one. Those who see, read, hear and evaluate for themselves can find the truth they seek. The role of religion in this era is not as a blockage but to help explain and educate in a mature manner. Be bound-less, be stereotype-less, be label-less. Mould a right attitude and it would open up a new horizon of things.

    Have a nice day!
    Last edited by chowkit74; 17 September 2013 at 07:29 PM.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •