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Thread: Analysis of dreams to establish idealism in Yogachara and Shankara's response

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    Analysis of dreams to establish idealism in Yogachara and Shankara's response

    Hello all,

    The Yogachara school maintains that consciousness alone is real and the external world does NOT exist. Vasubandhu was a Yogachara Buddhist-idealist. He authored "20 verses on consciousness-only" which is an interesting read in itself. In that, he uses the following argument in an attempt to establish that the external world does not exist.

    (1)In cognitive experience, for instance in dreams, the objects we experience appear "as external".
    (2)What appears "as external" does not truly exist. For instance, the dream experience is sublated by waking experience.
    (3)The waking experience is a cognitive experience.
    (4)What appears "as external" in waking experience, therefore, does not exist.

    Advaitins themselves are anti-realist, and thus it is interesting to see how they would respond to the above argument. The following argument is advanced to point out the mistake with the above argument.

    (a)A horse is a 4-legged animal.
    (b)A horse does not have horns.
    (c)A cow is a 4-legged animal.
    (d)Therefore, a cow does not have horns.

    Clearly, the above is fallacious. Why? The concept of "horn"hood is unestablished. It would not remain unestablished if one were to see a horned cow. What is intended to be established is whether cows have horns or not. Hence, one cannot observe similarities between cows and horses on other issues and conclude that the similarities extend to the possession of horns also. Likewise, the Yogachara Buddhist should clearly explain what it means to say that something appears "as external". Merely observing the similarities between the waking state and the dreaming state, he cannot hastily conclude that they are similar with respect to the lack of existence of external objects.

    Note that the Advaitin's position is that the existence of the external world can neither be proven to be true or false. It is inexplicable. We can assume it exists for epistemic advance (for the sake of discussion, debates, argumentation, scripture, etc.) but it is sublated by Brahman knowledge. An analogy provided by the Advaitin regarding the usage of scripture for soteriological purposes is that one needs a thorn to remove another thorn. Once the other thorn is removed, both thorns can be discarded.

    Beginning Brahmasutra Bhashya 2:2:29 are other arguments by Shankara.
    Last edited by wundermonk; 26 August 2012 at 11:52 AM.

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    Re: Analysis of dreams to establish idealism in Yogachara and Shankara's response

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    Hello all,

    Note that the Advaitin's position is that the existence of the external world can neither be proven to be true or false. It is inexplicable. We can assume it exists for epistemic advance (for the sake of discussion, debates, argumentation, scripture, etc.) but it is sublated by Brahman knowledge. An analogy provided by the Advaitin regarding the usage of scripture for soteriological purposes is that one needs a thorn to remove another thorn. Once the other thorn is removed, both thorns can be discarded.

    .
    Per Advaita World exists but not independent of God. World is Mithya which is not unreal as in the horns on a man etc. It is not real either because world as we know it disappears in Pralaya. On the other hand God always "is" and so is Real.

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    Re: Analysis of dreams to establish idealism in Yogachara and Shankara's response

    Quote Originally Posted by Seeker123 View Post
    Per Advaita World exists but not independent of God. World is Mithya which is not unreal as in the horns on a man etc. It is not real either because world as we know it disappears in Pralaya. On the other hand God always "is" and so is Real.
    God always is - where is he now? Planet earth would need him now more than ever
    AUM

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    Re: Analysis of dreams to establish idealism in Yogachara and Shankara's response

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    Hello all,

    The Yogachara school maintains that consciousness alone is real and the external world does NOT exist. Vasubandhu was a Yogachara Buddhist-idealist. He authored "20 verses on consciousness-only" which is an interesting read in itself. In that, he uses the following argument in an attempt to establish that the external world does not exist.

    (1)In cognitive experience, for instance in dreams, the objects we experience appear "as external".
    (2)What appears "as external" does not truly exist. For instance, the dream experience is sublated by waking experience.
    (3)The waking experience is a cognitive experience.
    (4)What appears "as external" in waking experience, therefore, does not exist.
    Doesn't Gaudapada Karika make a similar argument? (Vaitathya Prakarana, lines 1 to 10)
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
    http://www.scribd.com/HinduismLibrary

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    Re: Analysis of dreams to establish idealism in Yogachara and Shankara's response

    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
    http://www.scribd.com/HinduismLibrary

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    Re: Analysis of dreams to establish idealism in Yogachara and Shankara's response

    Quote Originally Posted by Omkara View Post
    Do you want to discuss something here?

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    Re: Analysis of dreams to establish idealism in Yogachara and Shankara's response

    wundermonk,
    I read similar introduction to Advaita by a Tamil scholar. He argues little differently though "in a dream one experiences situations which are similar to one's life situtations like friends, family, places etc., which seem real but when one wakes up they no longer seem real. But the things/situations in dreams also exist in reality. Then which one is real?"

    But the argument you mentioned is clearly fallacious.
    ॐ महेश्वराय नमः

    || Om Namo Bhagavate Rudraya ||

    Hara Hara Mahadeva Shambo Shankara

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    Re: Analysis of dreams to establish idealism in Yogachara and Shankara's response

    Quote Originally Posted by realdemigod View Post
    wundermonk,
    I read similar introduction to Advaita by a Tamil scholar. He argues little differently though "in a dream one experiences situations which are similar to one's life situtations like friends, family, places etc., which seem real but when one wakes up they no longer seem real. But the things/situations in dreams also exist in reality. Then which one is real?"

    But the argument you mentioned is clearly fallacious.
    Advaita DOES make use of the dream analogy but utilizes it for purposes different than what the Yogachara Buddhist uses it for.

    Advaita talks about sublation of sleeping experience by waking experience. So, the sleeping experience is known to be false on waking but not before. Likewise, Advaita claims that the waking experience is "more real" as compared to dreams but is "less real" as compared to the soteriological state. So, from the POV of Brahman, the waking life is unreal. Just like how the sleeing experience is unreal as compared to the waking life.

    So, there are atleast three (actually four if one considers things like a square circle, etc.) levels of reality/unreality. Each level is unreal as compared to the one above but more real as compared to the one below.

    Yet another difference between Yogachara and Advaita is that consciousness in Yogachara has a form. Once consciousness is admitted to have a form, one can philosophically do away with external objects which is exactly what the Yogachara Buddhist does.

    Advaita, however, holds that consciousness, qua consciousness pure intentionless, is without form. What has form is the chittavritti. That is, the mind takes on the form of the external object. Consciousness reveals this form and that is how cognition occurs. So, Advaita does not completely do away with the external world for the external world plays a causal role in its analysis of perception. Advaita holds that one can neither prove nor disprove that the external world exists. It is simply agnostic on this front.

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