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Thread: Abortion

  1. #11
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    Re: Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna View Post
    Namaste,

    In ancient times abortion was 1) unsafe for woman's health and 2) not good for society (people were less those days). But nowadays to prohibit abortions is a social crime which leads to more sufferings. Of course some political and religious leaders may have reasons to stop abortions - but these have nothing to do with spirituality at all.
    This is the way I used to think. But it did hit my conscience.

    Big question is “Isn’t that prohibition of abortion a social crime which leads to more sufferings"
    Does this mean it is good for the society to encourage the abortions? When did humans become the authorities and decided it is perfectly OK for us to take away some one's life in order to lessen one's sufferings?
    In our quest for becoming more self aware or conscious, can we just try to look good and act there is no suffering? I am not religious neither politically inclined. It is an individual moral decision; the decision cannot be forced but has to come from the heart.
    Someone said “If there is no God, everything is permissible". You be the judge.

    Love.................................VC

  2. #12
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    Collected somewhere from the great web

    Exploring Karma - Tales of a Universal Principle
    ===================================================
    High in the reaches of Mount Kailasha is the abode of Shiva, the
    Hindu god of destruction. One evening Vishnu, the god responsible
    for preserving the cosmic order, came to see Shiva. He left
    behind at the entrance Garuda, the half-man, half-eagle
    composite, who served as his vehicle.

    Garuda sat alone, marveling at the natural splendor of the place.
    Suddenly his eyes fell on a beautiful creature, a little bird
    seated on the arch crowning the entrance to Shiva's place. Garuda
    wondered aloud: "How marvelous is this creation! One who has
    created these lofty mountains has also made this tiny bird - and
    both seem equally wonderful."

    Just then Yama, the god of death who rides a buffalo, came
    passing by with the intention of meeting Shiva. As he crossed the
    arch, his eyes went over to the bird and he raised his brows in a
    quizzical expression. Then he took his eyes off the bird and
    disappeared inside.

    Now, in the ancient thought of India, even a slight glance of
    Yama is said to be the harbinger of death. Garuda, who had
    observed Yama's action, told himself, "Yama looking intently at
    the bird can mean only one thing - the bird's time is up. Perhaps
    on his way back he will carry away the bird's soul with him."
    Garuda's heart was filled with pity for the helpless creature.
    That it was oblivious of its own impending doom further agonized
    Garuda and he resolved to save the bird from the clutches of
    death. He swooped it up in his mighty talons, rushed to a forest
    thousands of miles away and left the bird on a rock beside a
    brook. Then he returned to Kailasha and regained his position at
    the entrance gate.

    Soon after, Yama emerged from inside, and nodded to Garuda in
    recognition. Garuda greeted the god of death and said: "May I put
    a question to you? While going in, you saw a bird and for a
    moment you became pensive, why?"

    Yama answered him thus: "Well, when my eyes fell on the little
    bird, I saw that it was to die in a few minutes, swallowed by a
    python, far away from here in a forest near a brook. I wondered
    how this tiny creature would traverse the thousand of miles
    separating it from its destiny in such a short time. Then I
    forgot. Surely it must have happened somehow."

    Saying this, Yama smiled and went away. Did he know about Garuda's
    specific role in the matter? Nobody can know for sure. Garuda
    sat perplexed, mulling over the surprising turn events had taken.

    Karma, and its Consequences:

    The word karma is derived from the Sanskrit root 'kri,' meaning
    'to do,' implying that all action is karma. Technically, the term
    incorporates both an action and its consequence. Thus Garuda's
    karma consisted of the act of carrying away the bird and also its
    consequent snatching by the cruel hands of destiny. Hence, a
    deed, pure in its content, led to an apparently unfavorable
    outcome. Through this subtle tale, we are made to confront a
    dilemma which constantly recurs in our own lives, namely, the
    relative impurity and purity of an action. Is an action to be
    deemed positive or negative solely on the basis of the result it
    generates? Or, is there some other criterion? Indeed there is.
    What determines the nature of the karma is the will or intention
    behind an act. As is mentioned in the Buddhist text Anguttara
    Nikaya, published by the Pali Text Society, "It is will
    that I call karma; having willed, one acts through
    body, speech or mind."


    Indeed, an action is right or wrong as the motive is right or
    wrong:


    "One who acts with the best of intentions, does not get the sin
    of the outward consequence of his action." (Yoga Sikha).

    "Some undertakings succeed and others fail. That is due to the
    divine order of things. If a man does his part of the work, no
    sin touches him." (Mahabharata: Santi Parva 24.30)


    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  3. #13
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    Re: Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by sm78 View Post
    Saidevo's posts carry many quotes from sruti about the issue which are of higher authority than garbhopanisad.
    Banning abortion is not the Hindu way, but certainly neither is misuse.
    Namaste,

    Neither of provided quotes from Shruti specify what is meant by KILLING an embryo. Unless soul gets linked to it, embryo is nothing more than any other part of body, mere piece of flesh. If one cuts off his finger, nobody will say that is a killing! And Shruti says that an embryo is to be considered alive only since 7th month of pregnancy (i checked with Garbhopanishad, 7th is exact). Same is stated in Siddhasiddhanta-paddhati (I. 71), yogic treatise of XII century attributed to Gorakshanatha.

    And banning abortion is obviously violation of human rights. Maybe it's kind of OK to preach against abortion – though in modern situation with overpopulation it cannot have any good results – but verily not ban. Keep in mind, in times of Shatapatha-brahmana people were MUCH less.

  4. #14

    Re: Abortion

    Message deleted

  5. #15

    Re: Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna View Post
    Namaste,

    Neither of provided quotes from Shruti specify what is meant by KILLING an embryo. Unless soul gets linked to it, embryo is nothing more than any other part of body, mere piece of flesh. If one cuts off his finger, nobody will say that is a killing! And Shruti says that an embryo is to be considered alive only since 7th month of pregnancy (i checked with Garbhopanishad, 7th is exact). Same is stated in Siddhasiddhanta-paddhati (I. 71), yogic treatise of XII century attributed to Gorakshanatha.

    And banning abortion is obviously violation of human rights. Maybe it's kind of OK to preach against abortion – though in modern situation with overpopulation it cannot have any good results – but verily not ban. Keep in mind, in times of Shatapatha-brahmana people were MUCH less.
    Arjuna,

    The purpose here was only to understand Hindu view on the issue...banning is not prescribed by any respected hindu saint as well (subramuniyaswami included) ... but a 2nd or a 3rd thought is.

    Banning is surely illogical and asuric under some circumstances.
    ________________________________

    Edit to Add:-

    Further, I looked up the afore mentioned upanisad ... it says in the 8th verse that embryo comes to life in the 7th month.

    This means that destroying an embryo after 7 months amounts to KILLING a human being.
    However through most of the thread we are discussing whether termination of a pregnancy is accepted or is it condemned. It has not been argued that it amounts to homicide. Human comes into physical plane by first born in various mental plane...it is said to be a long journey for the soul which starts at the very moment of GarbhapAta. Terminating this mid-way may not be equal to physically killing a person, but surely an act which causes confusion and disturbance.

    It is a part of our core belief that, peace and well being in the "physical" world very much depends on all the peace and well being of all the subtler levels of conciousness...hence the phrase ~ Om Peace,Peace,Peace (to 3 worlds).

    This only for sake of putting my view...people will do what they choose to do.
    Last edited by sm78; 23 October 2007 at 09:01 AM.
    What is Here, is Elsewhere. What is not Here, is Nowhere.

  6. #16
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    Re: Abortion

    I am pleased to read that both traditional sacred writings and most modern Gurus say abortion is killing and thus is very bad karma.

    I just wonder if the laws in India today have any strictures against abortion and are they enforced?

  7. #17
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    Re: Abortion

    Vannakkam Skull:

    Here's a link to the laws http://lifestyle.iloveindia.com/loun...india-240.html

    Unfortunately, as in all countries, laws are broken. Unwanted pregnancy would be a larger social taboo in India that in the west, I believe. A lot would also be hidden. So the reality on the ground is difficult to determine at best.

    Aum Namasivaya

  8. #18
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    Re: Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Vannakkam Skull:

    Here's a link to the laws http://lifestyle.iloveindia.com/loun...india-240.html

    Unfortunately, as in all countries, laws are broken. Unwanted pregnancy would be a larger social taboo in India that in the west, I believe. A lot would also be hidden. So the reality on the ground is difficult to determine at best.

    Aum Namasivaya
    Thanks for the link Eastern Mind. It looks like several loopholes are provided, so that many abortions would be legal. For example: "Failure of contraceptive device used by a couple."

    What does "Vannakkam" mean?

  9. #19
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    Re: Abortion

    Vannakkam Skull:

    Vannakkam is the Tamil version of 'Namaste'. Since my Hindu convert lineage is based in the South and particularly Tamil Nadu, I use it. It is one of about 5 words in Tamil I know.

    Aum Namasivaya

  10. #20
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    Re: Abortion

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namasté


    The question I hear on abortion is ' when does life start? ' The question ponders when a embryo becomes a ~child~, a person, a being. For me this is curious thinking.

    I think the question should be when does life stop? Not in the framework of death but that of life that begets life... this teeming energy that knows no bounds. Each cell is 'life' , filled with prāa. Compounded it brings another being to this earth - human, animal, etc.


    praṇām
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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